- 2,643
- Finland
- OdeFinn
Ok, throw then your setup with camber when you're ready.
Kicking open a bee's nest (camber)
- Thread starter demonchilde
- 220 comments
- 10,169 views
- 11,660
- GTP_Orido
1:34s is a nice time for the FRS 
On some cars ( based on replica with stock gear ratio, super stiff springs, aggressive touge style LSD and lots of camber
- Amuse Orange Touge Monster and Spoon Sports Type One Garage Demo S2000 reduced to 450PP power ) that I have tested, 1:36/1:37s on CS on 1st lap, should be around 2s shaved with SH.
On some cars ( based on replica with stock gear ratio, super stiff springs, aggressive touge style LSD and lots of camber
- Amuse Orange Touge Monster and Spoon Sports Type One Garage Demo S2000 reduced to 450PP power ) that I have tested, 1:36/1:37s on CS on 1st lap, should be around 2s shaved with SH.
- 2,643
- Finland
- OdeFinn
Btw doing camber test it would be necessary to do it without TC and ABS.
Suspension won't move as its intended (coded in physics engine) with those aids, you can easily verify this claim by testing @demonchilde setup with https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/kicking-open-a-bees-nest-camber.344965/#post-11320868 noABS versus ABS, front will slam down really hard if noABS used, with ABS it barely moves.
My tunes are sometimes on TCS 1 or 0 and always on ABS 1, I will later do the Camber test without TCS and ABS and see for myself before I give you my tune.
Edit: I just tried this car without Camber and no TCS and ABS no good not even close with my lap time I found. With Camber it is faster on this car, and I will not be give out my tune sorry.
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- 2,643
- Finland
- OdeFinn
What's your opinion about difference on suspension movements between noABS and ABS?
Why not share tune, I'd like to test it and do few minor changes for further tests.
- 2,643
- Finland
- OdeFinn
Does better in this case mean smaller and softer movements than noABS?
-That's case IMO, but therefore you can do proper suspension to handle mass movements properly, then movements aren't so big or bad, but these ABS killed suspension tunes are majority on here and really small percentage of them are even slightly driveable without ABS due that "too big"(a.k.a.realistic) suspension movement.
- 2,643
- Finland
- OdeFinn
This is sadly big part of camber, most of camber is dynamic, small part is static. With ABS switched on we're eliminating suspension changes to move and that eliminates heavy part of dynamic camber, leaving usable mostly static.
GT6 biggest flaw considering camber is tire model, now we have rubber coated bricks rolling under car, that few millimeter rubber coating "bottoms" easily when rolling bigger static camber values, bottoming makes brick part overcome rubber parts camber throw and because of that cross effecting camber throw we can't use as is camber like on real life, we have to take that brick direction given aspect to tune, meaning we have to use precise toe values to keep camber throw on desired direction. So not good sidewall flex, only few millimeter acting like flexing sidewall.
This transfer between real life and GT6 like assuming at you're running too high pressure on real life, sidewall doesn't flex much and your toe values start to give bigger effect.
I don't take this as a problem, because our suspension parts in game are zero tolerance clinical accuracy parts, that makes corrections possible.
suspension travel and camber work same as always with or without driver aids. In my opinion. Theres a video in my garage of the ZZII with camber using TCS and ABS. There is every bit as much front slamming down as usual in my opinion. I think front splitter fairly much scraping would count.
- 968
- Maine
- VooDooChilde333
Same topic.
I like to use abs=1 on some things as well. And will use tc=1 on other things/situations also.
I would prefer not to, and try not to, but when it comes down to it there are times when I just want to have some actual fun driving rather then just keep tuning and fixing and retuning and fixing and endless blah. So I have roughly 2 or 3 cars per PP level that are tuned different.
BUT THATS BESIDES THE POINT.
If we are going to compare notes here, and test, we need to keep as much control on the experiment as possible. We can't have some using abs, and some not, and both throwing conclusions out there. Reguardless of if you like abs or not, its better if we are all on the same page with the same ingredients if we are going to compare notes on this topic.
Yes?
I use ABS 1 on every tune and some times TCS 1, the car I tested in my post, without Camber was not as fast with Camber, so if you want to use Camber well use it and if you do not want to use it don't.
- 968
- Maine
- VooDooChilde333
Great^^
Doesn't matter if we understand anything, doesn't matter if we make progress.
If you want to use camber, use it, if you don't want to, don't.
By far the best camber theory ever, lol.^^
- 2,643
- Finland
- OdeFinn
@demonchilde that yours FRS tune is just good for using example, people should try that exact setup with and without ABS i.e. Tsukuba
It was proved already in a controlled experiment that 0 camber wasn't fastest, so I doubt you will find participants for another. People that believe in 0 camber don't like to hear about results of camber, they would not risk being wrong again. They would rather be slow than be wrong.
It's easier not to investigate camber and to dismiss people that use camber.
It's easier not to investigate camber and to dismiss people that use camber.
- 968
- Maine
- VooDooChilde333
You keep using that tune, lol. That tune is from way back in December and isn't updated with current patchs nor is it anything like I would have it tuned today, lol.
I haven't revisited anything old in a long time, too much work. Easier to buy new and start over.
But anyway, if its being used as an example, so be it.
Just know, I tuned a little different back then, as well as drove a little different. I took it out for a spin after the first time you mentioned it, and was not impressed. Hard saying that as it was mine, lol.
Any example is fine.
As far as others opinions go MrGrado, I listen to open minded people only. The second I get a hint of anyone who is "positive" or "has an immovable opinion", I skip the rest of thier post and go to the next one. Anyone without an open mind is not a scientist, and therefor any theory they spit is absolutely useless scientifically.
So let them think what they want. The rest of us want to move forward.
I haven't revisited anything old in a long time, too much work. Easier to buy new and start over.
But anyway, if its being used as an example, so be it.
Just know, I tuned a little different back then, as well as drove a little different. I took it out for a spin after the first time you mentioned it, and was not impressed. Hard saying that as it was mine, lol.
Any example is fine.
As far as others opinions go MrGrado, I listen to open minded people only. The second I get a hint of anyone who is "positive" or "has an immovable opinion", I skip the rest of thier post and go to the next one. Anyone without an open mind is not a scientist, and therefor any theory they spit is absolutely useless scientifically.
So let them think what they want. The rest of us want to move forward.
- 2,643
- Finland
- OdeFinn
@demonchilde it's excellent example piece, don't take it personally, it just demonstrates effect easily, otherwise I need to put other tune here and so on.. Just demonstration material as is.. 
- 48
- North Korea
Don't usually chime in round these parts.
But, I figured I might be able to contribute to this conversation, even if only marginally.
I ran a few tests at the substitute drag strip we currently use for the leader boards.
Here's my current suspension setup...
This very simple, full throttle run landed this time.
Same settings with only front camber adjusted to 0.0....
Same settings with only front toe adjusted to 0.00..
*As a point of note, all increases of time were made during the first 0-100 mph.
Sadly drag racing is void of LSD settings, throttle control, variable suspension setups and of course driver style. All of which contribute to a cars handling.
But if it can make that much of a difference over a very short, straight piece of road, it's every chance of making a difference on at least some tracks.
But, I figured I might be able to contribute to this conversation, even if only marginally.
I ran a few tests at the substitute drag strip we currently use for the leader boards.
Here's my current suspension setup...
This very simple, full throttle run landed this time.
Same settings with only front camber adjusted to 0.0....
Same settings with only front toe adjusted to 0.00..
*As a point of note, all increases of time were made during the first 0-100 mph.
Sadly drag racing is void of LSD settings, throttle control, variable suspension setups and of course driver style. All of which contribute to a cars handling.
But if it can make that much of a difference over a very short, straight piece of road, it's every chance of making a difference on at least some tracks.
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- 968
- Maine
- VooDooChilde333
@demonchilde it's excellent example piece, don't take it personally, it just demonstrates effect easily, otherwise I need to put other tune here and so on.. Just demonstration material as is..
All good man^^
The claim that 0/0 camber produces better time in straight roadways, is just that, a claim.
I do believe this to be true, but NOT when its worded like that.
I believe that 0/0 camber creates better traction on the exit of a corner going into a straight section. And therefor, the entire process of coming out of the corner and into high speed happens faster. So yes, it does produce better time, but not because of the performance on the actual straight.
Believe, a term I use, that is meant to be taken as follows;
To agree that something is true, under strict conditions, until new information comes forth and proves difference.
- 4,803
- Dearborn, MI
- MotorCtyHamilton
I am not missing GT6 one bit. Same debates. Same evidence (or lack thereof). Same broken physics.
- 2,643
- Finland
- OdeFinn
@saywhat if you want to optimise that tune for minimal tire roll resistance your tune need negative front toe as well on rear too, camber on front also.. Even you have stiff rear springs, stiff dampers, your car will still squat a bit and front rises too. Suspension lift on front straighten camber closer to zero and caster plus camber turns positive toe there, so your first is on faster setup. Rear creates more camber throw when compressed, adding negative toe there too, but not so much as on front.
So your tune looks fine for drag. If distance is longer and suspension has time to settle then your setup isn't so good anymore.
So your tune looks fine for drag. If distance is longer and suspension has time to settle then your setup isn't so good anymore.
- 2,643
- Finland
- OdeFinn
Ok, few questions pops:
Why then being active here without anything to say?
Trading GT6 to this?
- 4,803
- Dearborn, MI
- MotorCtyHamilton
- 11,660
- GTP_Orido
Got a short play time, tested my FRS tuned to 450PP based on TEIN demo car build, still with stock gearbox, managed 1:34.4s at Apricot Hill Reverse on 1st lap ( SH tire ) I could see another tenth at least, as I had some mistake. The car has 2.0 front camber and 3.5 rear camber ( that I intentionally add )
258PS/1064kg, 54/46 distribution of real car, 30/10/10 LSD, stiff 10k/12k spring, racing brakes 3/4 BB, no assist.
258PS/1064kg, 54/46 distribution of real car, 30/10/10 LSD, stiff 10k/12k spring, racing brakes 3/4 BB, no assist.
- 2,643
- Finland
- OdeFinn
You make things too personal, stay objective, it's only tuning/gaming.
My target and focus is on tunes, not tuners.
No bad feelings.
- 291
- Oxfordshire
- Bread_45
I like this a lot.
I am pretty sure I have boxed myself in to a corner with some settings before, hitting a local maximum, but not the best possible overall.
I have gone through a few different orders of tuning and am not certain which I prefer. I put a method on the NGU thread a long while ago, page 71. Just out of interest with rough categories of "suspension", "alignment", and "LSD", what's everyone's feel on the best order? Or do you cycle through iteratively until no more improvement can be found?
I'm seriously considering treating myself to a game/sim with more telemetry. I feel like I'm doing sums on a calculator but someone's removed half the buttons!
Hi Ode, it's been a while!
- 58
- Australia
- Jimothyhaight666
For someone that says zero camber is fastest, alot of your tunes seem to have camber, do you recommend next time i use your tunes to put them all to zero?
- 968
- Maine
- VooDooChilde333
Personally, I start out by figuring the power options. You kind of have to, as it changes Transmission.
But after that, I open up suspension, drop camber and both toe to 0/0, but leave everything else stock settings.
Then depending on the drive (MR,FR,ect) I throw up some average lsd settings. Something like 10/10/13, just to start with.
Then off to the track.
I revisit LSD almost every time I change something. The way I see it, I WANT to make everything work using just the LSD, so until I get the front/rear weight distribution, and the suspension settings to a point that I can make the lsd do all the tuning work, I just keep trying things.
I hope that made sense, lol.
