Legalization of Marijuana

[MarcoM]

I voted No. I live in Geleen, very close to Belgium and Germany. Two coffeeshops within 200 meters. The hassle of all these people comming over here and getting their stuff. Crazy stuff with cars, polution and harrasing people.

Get over it, legalization only works if all countries in the world do that. It ain't gonna happen.

 

[FoolKiller]

I thought this was appropriate for this thread: LANGUAGE WARNING

I listen to Penn's Sunday School every week and love his podcast, so I heard this last week when it first aired, but now that the relevant clips are available I can post it up here.

Penn Jillette (of Penn & Teller fame) went off on his podcast last week after Obama defended states rights on gay marriage (meaning he didn't have to act on his opinion) but refused to even consider marijuana legalization on even a state level when asked about it on Jimmy Fallon.

If you want to see the Jimmy Fallon interview with the question that triggered Penn's outrage, you can see it here, starting at about the 1:10 mark.
http://www.latenightwithjimmyfallon.com/video/president-barack-obama-part-5-4-24-12/1398268

Now, here is the article with the text of Penn's comments with the AUP language edited by me.

In a recent episode of his podcast "Penn's Sunday School," comedian Penn Jillette laid his opinions on the Obama drug policies out on the table.

Jillette, who has never done drugs or drank alcohol in his life, expressed particular concern over the policies' broad-sweeping, all-inclusive nature. Namely, that people are going to prison because of marijuana use.

"Now, he has not left this to states' rights," Jillette posited. "As you know, medical marijuana... you can get in California, and the feds are coming in to try to stop this. States' rights don't mean jack 🤬 to the Obama administration on anything except gay marriage."

Another point of contention for Jillette was the fact that President Obama mentioned that he had smoked "weed" and done "maybe a little blow" in his 1995 book "Dreams from my Father."

Jillette cited it as a prime example of the fact that not all drug users turn out to be menaces to society:

What troubles me about this... I think it's beyond hypocrisy. I think it's something to do with class. A lot of people have accused Obama of class warfare, but in the wrong direction. I believe this is Obama chortling with Jimmy Fallon about lower class people. Do we believe, even for a second, that if Obama had been busted for marijuana -- under the laws that he condones -- would his life have been better? If Obama had been caught with the marijuana that he says he uses, and 'maybe a little blow'... if he had been busted under his laws, he would have done hard 🤬 time. And if he had done time in prison, time in federal prison, time for his 'weed' and 'a little blow,' he would not be President of the United States of America. He would not have gone to his fancy- 🤬 college, he would not have sold books that sold millions and millions of copies and made millions and millions of dollars, he would not have a beautiful, smart wife, he would not have a great job. He would have been in 🤬 prison, and it's not a god 🤬 joke. People who smoke marijuana must be set free. It is insane to lock people up.

Jillette and co-host Michael Goudeau then went on to discuss statistics from uncited sources, but with the general suggestion that the number of people currently locked up in federal prisons for marijuana-related crimes is too high. Both men posited that Obama changing his drug policies would lighten the load on the prison system and give recreational drug users a chance to contribute to society.

And for those who want to see the video of the conversation follow this link to watch the uncensored video.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mobil...rug-policy-states-rights-video_n_1533004.html

If you want to get the full podcast to see the whole rambling conversation without editing you can get it at pennsundayschool.com. It is the May 13th episode "His Guy, His Bat, We Can Laugh."

In short, Obama is a hypocrite who enforces and supports drug laws that would have destroyed his own life had he fallen victim to them, makes light of the issue and talks about it destroying people's lives while his own life is evidence against his opinion today, and only supports states rights when he thinks it aids him politically.

As someone that has supposedly never had a drink of alcohol, puff of a cigarette, or partaken any illegal substance Penn Jillette believes it should be your choice to decide if you want to partake in those things or not.

 

[Liquid]

I voted No. I live in Geleen, very close to Belgium and Germany. Two coffeeshops within 200 meters. The hassle of all these people comming over here and getting their stuff. Crazy stuff with cars, polution and harrasing people.

Get over it, legalization only works if all countries in the world do that. It ain't gonna happen.

If it was legal in Belgium and Germany, then those people would stay home in their own countries and not bother your town's coffee shop, which is surely a good thing?

So I would have thought you'd go for a Yes in principle.

 

[MarcoM]

If it was legal in Belgium and Germany, then those people would stay home in their own countries and not bother your town's coffee shop, which is surely a good thing?

So I would have thought you'd go for a Yes in principle.

IF it is legal in Belgium, Germany, France, UK, and Luxemburg, then I will vote yes.

But the big thing is the IF. It aint gonna happen. And there will always be surrounding countries where it is illegal and that will cause trouble.

Look, I am not against smoking weed. But it's gotta be regulated. Not by just one country, like we try in the Netherlands, but by all countries. That would be an ideal world.

Plenty for everyone. But the reality is very different. We all know that there is enough food and water for everyone in the whole world. But even legal things like food and water are difficult to distribute in a fair way. Let alone things that are considered illegal in most countries.

And yes, coffeeshops are legal in the Netherlands. And I know in cities that are not close to the border they do not cause trouble. But in cities that are close the border, they do cause trouble. If people deny that, they just suffer from tunnel vision.

 

[Ibonibo]

Shouldn't your "problem" be "resolved" end of the month when they dry out the drug tourism??

On the other side, your city surely will lose some of the tax money in the months now following the new drug policies.

It's like the poor people here in Luxemburg who live in cities like Schengen (I took this one as everyone knows it), little town, invaded by border jumpers for coffee, cigarettes, fuel.

But I understand your point, and it would indeed not resolve the problem even if the surrounding countries would legalize it.

Heck, there are a lot of Italians doing the way of nearly a 1000km to get hold of a few grams of pot.

 

[MarcoM]

Yes it is a lot quieter since 1 May. Good thing. And yes I am aware of that there will be more illegal actions. But the police is allowed to take countermeasures in these cases.

Tax money go to our governemt, not to local cities directly.

 

[JacksHerer]

This is an interesting program from years ago.
youtube - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aa2G_xcSPUg

 

[TP1]

I want to point out 2 facts. They may seem conspiratorial but at the very least they'll make a good read:

1. In the '30s Cannabis sativa was banned (The Marijuana Tax Act, 1937) as it was bad business to syntethic fiber, platics and timber industries. As you may know paper is made out of cellulose, wood has about 30% cellulose compared to hemp which has a staggering 85%. So for every tree that's cut down, 70% goes to waste. Hemp grows very easily that anyone could grow it in their backyard, and for this reason it's been used for writing and printing for centuries.
So Global Warming could be stopped overnight if we really wanted to.

2. If marijuana is legalized and production begins in the United States, Afghanistan who is the worlds biggest producer will obviously not be suppliying US junkies. So they will not be getting anymore money, which is used to fund terrorists with weapons for war. Wars which US troops fight using US produced weapons. If terrorists don't have anymore money to fund their war, there won't be anymore war. If there isn't anymore war, then US weapon manufacturers won't have a reason to manufacture weapons. If they don't have a reason to produce and sell weapons, then they won't make anymore money.
So War could be stopped overnight if we really wanted to.

It may look like a conspiracy theory (that large corporations are controlling the world), but if everything I stated is true, then 2 of modern mankinds biggest problems could be stopped from legalizing THC.
But in a government that would rather invest money into coming up with constant medication for obesity, rathen than fixing its agricultural sector; I wouldn't expect much change without a revolution.

P.S. I'd like to specificy that I don't drink, smoke or do drugs and never had the urge to even try (the later two). I'm an amateur bodybuilder so my goal is to live a healthy lifestyle.
I'm also not pro-marijuana. I simply stated and interpreted some information I found, so see what others think.

 

[MarcoM]

It's allways nice to see people dreaming away.

 

[Ibonibo]

TP1:
Point 2 : Afgan is a "make" of ****, cannabis resine, nothing to do with the country. Afganisthan produces Opium out of papaver/ poppyseed.
US pot is South American and domestic. Nobody would go aroundt he globe for pot.

And it's THC not HTC, which is a cellphone make

On point 1 argee: Recycled paper always need some fresh wood in it so it stays stable, this could be done with MaryJ

 

[OK8]

When people describe the drugs industry to their children ("they add chemicals to get you hooked and then drain you out of all your money until you die of the toxins") they're actually describing the tobacco industry, and it's all legal and making millions on people's suffering (but sponsoring motorsport, which is the only good thing it does). In light of this I think it's hard to find justification for the criminalization of cannabis from a health point of view.

 

[SkateNj]

I change my mind i think from a smokers point of view legalization would just screw us over. We wouod have terrible goverment grown bud with tons of additives and it would cost a lot. But people would still buy from dealers and it wouodnt hinder cartels either. But with legalization also comes the massive amount of new users then price will skyrocket and dealers will br able to raise prices to.

So im just gonna stick to growing my own personal bud.

 

[lbsf1]

I change my mind i think from a smokers point of view legalization would just screw us over. We wouod have terrible goverment grown bud with tons of additives and it would cost a lot. But people would still buy from dealers and it wouodnt hinder cartels either. But with legalization also comes the massive amount of new users then price will skyrocket and dealers will br able to raise prices to.

So im just gonna stick to growing my own personal bud.

Even if it is legalised then what is there to stop people still growing their own, you will say taxes. However please remember you can grow your own tobacco legally aslong as you don't sell it to anyone and just use it yourself. Which I'm sure you would be ok with.

My town has a new police officer incharge of Youth and teens who has just moved into the area. He spent most of this weekend going around speaking to all the teenagers he saw out and about. He said to us that one of the things he has been told that they spend a lot of time policing is cannabis and then after abit more of a chat he admitted to us that his view was that cannabis is worth legalising because of the amount of trouble is would solve them compared to the relatively small problems that cannabis actually causes to society. He was a much nicer cop than the one who came up to us in a park and (wrongly) suspected us of smoking cannabis he just told us to get off the park in 5 mins or he would arrest us.

 

[FoolKiller]

I change my mind i think from a smokers point of view legalization would just screw us over. We wouod have terrible goverment grown bud with tons of additives and it would cost a lot.

I have a garden for food. Grow your own.

But people would still buy from dealers and it wouodnt hinder cartels either. But with legalization also comes the massive amount of new users then price will skyrocket and dealers will br able to raise prices to.

How do you figure? When was the last time you bought alcohol at a speak easy from an Italian in a pen-stripe suit?

 

[Sttrobe]

I hear Weed is legal in Netherlands is that true?

 

[Slash]

I have a garden for food. Grow your own.

Exactly. So if vegetables were illegal and people grew their own, would those be illegal too? You buy them in the store and people grow their own, it would be no different for this.

 

[LancerEvo7]

I hear Weed is legal in Netherlands is that true?

Not legal, but left unpunished in Amsterdam if I'm understanding correctly.

 

[hawkeye122]

Cannabis should be legal. Hell, so should every other drug (once you turn 18- or whatever the legal age of "Adult" is in your country).

Here's a question- If it was legal, how many of us would choose to try meth? I'm guessing very few.

You want to do drugs and waste away your life? Fine. But you get ZERO benefits from the Government. And I would urge that non-profits take up the same policy.

We are ALL told in school that drugs can screw you up, but maybe it isnt real enough. So start giving actual, realistic accounts of what drug use can lead to, that way there is no "Well i didnt know it would be THAT bad..."

And if you choose to do it, thats your own problem. Hopefully you can manage your addiction well enough to still be a productive member of society.

 

[MarcoM]

Not legal, but left unpunished in Amsterdam if I'm understanding correctly.

You are allowed to own 5 plants as an adult. Only for own usage.

http://www.superwiet.nl/Wetgeving.html

 

[lbsf1]

We are ALL told in school that drugs can screw you up, but maybe it isnt real enough. So start giving actual, realistic accounts of what drug use can lead to, that way there is no "Well i didnt know it would be THAT bad..."

And if you choose to do it, thats your own problem. Hopefully you can manage your addiction well enough to still be a productive member of society.

Our school took that approach and got an ex drug addict to do an assembly on drugs. It kinda works apart from the fact that teenagers think we are indestructable and "that will never happen to us".

Drugs legislation does annoy me as it is basicly saying, you cannot do this because we know better than you that it is bad for you and that really you don't want to. The appitome (Sorry I'm useless at spelling) of a nanny state. Allowing people to choose to do drugs once they are an adult is more implementable in a country like the USA where you have to pay for healthcare, however in the UK you have people then complaining on how their taxes pay for drug addicts.

Even if not all drugs are legalised then cannabis since it causes relatively little bad effects should be legalised. It would also be a sure fire way to get a party into power with the number of people who would vote for it.

 

[MarcoM]

Allowing people to choose to do drugs once they are an adult is more implementable in a country like the USA where you have to pay for healthcare, however in the UK you have people then complaining on how their taxes pay for drug addicts.

With healthcare there is always the mechanism of many people paying for the few. And that is a good thing. You will experience that when you need really expensive healthcare.

The money problem is not on the side when drugs are used, but on the front end, where it is produced.

Legalization will only by succesfull if it is done globally around the world. We all know that will not happen. If organizatons can make money out of it, they will do that and that will cause problems.

 

[lbsf1]

With healthcare there is always the mechanism of many people paying for the few. And that is a good thing. You will experience that when you need really expensive healthcare.

Yes however if you have cancer it isn't your fault (most of the time.) and therefore most people realise they could easily get a bad illness too that may also need treatment, these are out of our control, in this circumstance people are happy for their money to fund these peoples treatment since it isn't the persons fault for getting the illness.

However with drugs it is your "choice" to do drugs and thus if you need treatment people who have "chosen" to never take drugs will not want to fund your treatment.

 

[MarcoM]

However with drugs it is your "choice" to do drugs and thus if you need treatment people who have "chosen" to never take drugs will not want to fund your treatment.

I fully agree with that.

However, having people rot away is not a fancy idea either.

edit: In case it's not clear: I am ANTI drugs. Living in a town close to the border with Belgium and Germany I have experienced more than enough.

Although, the newly introduced wietpas has minimized the trouble

 

[daft biker]

With healthcare there is always the mechanism of many people paying for the few. And that is a good thing. You will experience that when you need really expensive healthcare.

Like smokers in the UK that pay something like 6 times more in taxes than it costs to treat smoking related illnesses? In reality it's more like the few paying for the many, at least in the UK.

The profit margins on weed could be huge given people pay maybe £10 an ounce for tobacco but £10 a gram for decent weed. Financially it's going to make lots of sense if taxed (and controlled) appropriately.....an absolute no-brainer if you can produce something for a small fraction of the cost people will pay for it when there is clearly significant demand for it.

The reasons it's illegal in the UK can't be because it makes financial sense for it to be.....more like politicians in the main political parties will be out of a job pretty sharpish if they suggest it should be legalised.

 

[Dennisch]

I fully agree with that.

However, having people rot away is not a fancy idea either.

edit: In case it's not clear: I am ANTI drugs. Living in a town close to the border with Belgium and Germany I have experienced more than enough.

Although, the newly introduced wietpas has minimized the trouble

I've lived for 7 years next to 2 coffeeshops, there was never any trouble in my street, except for Saturday evening, when the drunk people roamed the streets..

Are the tourists such annoying people over there?

 

[MarcoM]

I've lived for 7 years next to 2 coffeeshops, there was never any trouble in my street, except for Saturday evening, when the drunk people roamed the streets..

Are the tourists such annoying people over there?

Since the introduction of the wietpas it is minimal. But before it was a random gathering of Belgium and French tourists: Bad driving and a lot of polution.

I know it can be better not so close to the border. I have seen it in Utrecht.

 

[Ibonibo]

On the it's the gateway drug. People always come up with that and the stupid statistic of 95% of drug users started with weed.

I have an other radom number, only 5% of weed users upgrade to stronger stuff.

Also the gateway drug is alcohol as everyone starts with that.

So ban everything? And like in Demolition Man ban salt, fat, .... everything is bad if consumed in unhealthy portions. You can develop psycological illness from too much coffee, like agoraphobia.

 

[MarcoM]

Fact is that with drugs (weed, cocaine) criminal activity is involved due to the fact that is illegal in the greater part of the world.

Coffee and salt can be bad for yourself too. Last year I suffered from kidney stones. So I know how it feels. But there is no crime involved in salt.

I am concerced about the crime that is involved with drugs. Less the usage itself.

 

[USARMYCOMBATVET]

Ask the Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) why it won't be legalized.

Feel free to refute any of these claims with evidence:
Myth #1 The enforcement of drug laws contributes to the
violence along the southwest border page 2
Myth #2 Legalizing and taxing marijuana will help local economies page 4
Myth #3 Federal drug laws infringe on states rights page 6
Myth #4 Prohibition didn’t work in the 20’s, and it won’t work now page 9
Myth #5 Congress is attempting to legislate morality page 11

Summary of the Top 10 Facts on Legalization 13
Fact 1: Significant progress has been made in fighting drug use and
drug trafficking in America 15
Demand Reduction 15
Supply Reduction 16
Fact 2: A balanced approach of prevention, enforcement, and
treatment are the keys in the fight against drug abuse 18
Stopping Drug Initiation 18
Reducing Drug Abuse and Addiction 19
Drug Courts 19
Risk Perception 20
Enforcing Drug Laws 20
Fact 3: Drug use is regulated and access to drugs is controlled
because drugs can be harmful 22
Cocaine 24
Heroin 26
Marijuana 28

ETC
source: http://www.justice.gov/dea/demand/speakout/speak_out_101210.pdf.

 

[MarcoM]

Interesting stuff USARMYCOMBATVET