Lemons to Le Mans Season 3 Tuesday Series: Final Race, Tuesday 11 October 2011

[Vol Jbolaz]

Just wondering if maybe.....welll, Bowtie you could probably answer this question for me.

Ummm...what drivetrain is the MGF I run?

I can't figure it out. I'll wait here till you let me know. Dont anyone else answer. I wont believe you and will therefore find you in contempt of this thread.



I'm on the edge of my seat! Only 6 days till I can find out exactly what this something is. First guess....you bought a GT-R. Am I right?

What are you getting at?

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

This is a faster course, though, so we should have something of an advantage over the fleet of MRs, the MG, and Bowtie.

I think I may understand why you have lost control of your faculties. In this sentence, I am using MR as the model name, not as an acronym for Mid-Rear. We have, if I recall correctly, a total of three Toyota MR-2s and MR-Ss.

I can see where the confusion starts. I used a model name, then used a manufacturer's name, then used a driver's name. I guess I should've said MGF and looked up the name of Bowtie's car.

While there is an advantage to be had during the weather by the FF (front-front) cars over the MR (mid-rear) cars, I'm speaking more to the fact that these particular MRs all have smaller engines. This is why I included Bowtie in the list above. I believe the largest engine between them is only 1.6 liters. This late in the season, on this faster course, the larger cars, with bigger engines, should be able to pull away on the open course.

 

[chuyler1]

Corner exit speed plays just as important a role as displacement...and sadly it seems it is more important in this series. Looking at the top placing cars from the previous seasons as well as the current leaders this season shows that having a lightweight car is a distinct advantage, especially on the lower tire grades.

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

Corner exit speed plays just as important a role as displacement...and sadly it seems it is more important in this series. Looking at the top placing cars from the previous seasons as well as the current leaders this season shows that having a lightweight car is a distinct advantage, especially on the lower tire grades.

I think the small cars will win the whole series. At this point, all they have to do is finish in the middle of the field for the next three races.

 

[BTK]

Corner exit speed plays just as important a role as displacement...

That's why I bought suspension instead of power upgrades, if power was key I would have been beat at Autumn Ring on Wednesday, as their car's are a couple second's faster. (Not that Tuesday is slow, they're FAST.)

I would like to apologize on Diabolic and I's behalf. Our outburst was a little over the top, so we're sorry.

On another note, I may have won Tuesday, but don't count me out at Suzuka, in the rain, things can change EASILY. Chuyler and I proved it last year, by placing well in car's that had little upgrades. It's bump drafting and pits, (or in my case, lack there of) you all can do it with the FF, as your tires will be a lot cooler than usual. But the MR's with their low power and being SUPER easy on tires, can pull 40 second advantages by not pitting, or just pitting once. I bet that most FF's will pit twice, though they think they will pit once.

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

On another note, I may have won Tuesday, but don't count me out at Suzuka, in the rain, things can change EASILY. Chuyler and I proved it last year, by placing well in car's that had little upgrades. It's bump drafting and pits, (or in my case, lack there of) you all can do it with the FF, as your tires will be a lot cooler than usual. But the MR's with their low power and being SUPER easy on tires, can pull 40 second advantages by not pitting, or just pitting once. I bet that most FF's will pit twice, though they think they will pit once.

Well everyone will be pitting one more time than planned at Suzuka. We will start in the rain. It won't last long, and the track will quickly dry. Everyone will need to pit to change tires.

That means, everyone will have less distance to go on their RH tires. I do imagine the fast FF may need to pit one more time. The question is, can the larger FRs drive clean enough and fast enough to push the smaller cars off the podium.

I think we may have a mix of larger engined FRs and FFs on the podium this week.

Again, it won't matter in the long run. The current leaders have a big buffer and only need to finish in the middle of the pack to stay there.

 

[chuyler1]

Here's two tips...

You can negotiate the esses without braking if you lift off early and let the tires scrub off speed. Careful throttle modulation will give you a faster line than mashing the brake/gas over and over again. For the final right ess, stay inside and don't completely track out on exit. You want to be toward the middle of the track for the final left ess to maximize speed on the following straight section. Try this in practice mode and watch yourself fly past your ghost. It is especially affective in FF cars that tend to understeer the second you touch the brakes.

When you practice racing on dry...try to negotiate 130R without braking. Depending on your power level, you can probably take it by just lifting off the gas a bit early, turning in, and then getting back on the gas. Negotiate the turn without braking, and you can gain up to 1 second per lap on your opponent...but don't attempt it on the first lap...because you never know what your opponent in front of you is going to do. It should work for cars at or under 450pp...but over that you may need to slightly tap the brakes.

 

[BTK]

Don't bring up the geezer thing again, yes I was following to close, but even geezer said that he braked a day early.

You work hard enough you can take the full first esses flat out, it takes a lot of practice. The trick is the flat track part with sand traps, you take those without braking and you will be fast.

 

[chuyler1]

You're talking about Suzuka right? It depends on how much power you have but usually you will have to at least lift off on entry and also before the final right to setup for WOT through the final left.

Not sure what "flat track" part you are referring too.

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

Last night, in the 450PP/CS room, I was in an Impreza when we were at Suzuka. I actually was able to feather the throttle to get through the first essess without brakes. I had to be mindful of my entry speed, so I didn't get it right every time, but it is possible.

Regrettably, the Impreza didn't take 130R at speed. I was able to do it last season in the Talon on fresh tires, but... that didn't go well last night.

 

[chuyler1]

yeah...on CS tires, unless you have the right camber balance one end or the other will fly out on that turn. I think I was running 0.5/1.5 on the Vauxhall Turbo (mid engine). Only other suspension mod I did was increase the rear toe from 0.20 to 0.30. Combined that with very low LSD settings and the car was planted enough for me to run fast. Similar settings on the Renault Turbo5 didn't provide the same results though :/

 

[diabolicwyvern]

Garris, you stated you should have something of an advantage and I was wondering what that was. This is why I put my emphasis on the word something. I think the rain will increase the chance of accident for all which will cancel out any increases in grip the FF might experience.

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

Garris, you stated you should have something of an advantage and I was wondering what that was. This is why I put my emphasis on the word something. I think the rain will increase the chance of accident for all which will cancel out any increases in grip the FF might experience.

It does increase the chances of an accident, but it is easier to drag something on poor surfaces than it is to push. The FFs should have an advantage over us. Last season, in my Talon, I was able to do several laps in pooring rain at a respectable clip without crashing.

And I'm rubbish.

In theory, any advantage that the smaller non-FFs have over my car should be eroded by the rain. During the rain, all I have to do is keep up. And it shouldn't be any easier for the smaller cars. Every so slightly harder, actually, since they have less weight to keep them planted.

As the track dries and we can get up to speeds, I should be able to pull away from the smaller cars on the straights.

It isn't likely to happen. Well, not for me, but it should for Sleight, if he can make it.

By that point, though, the FFs should have a something of a lead, and should be able to increase it.

Again, it won't matter in the long run. The points leaders have a very large lead.

Big tangent:

I'm already thinking about the next season. This one is really over for me (and several others).

Some ideas so far:

• Going back to alternating technical and speed tracks.
• Excluding the Nurburgring.
• Instead of setting years and max PP, we set minimum weight and a standard engine size, sort of like when the BTCC specified 2 liters (and there should be boat loads of 2 liter engines, and I don't mind keeping years in there).
• Tuesday and Wednesday don't have to be the same (this is a big hint that if Huyler does want to go with tracks in order of votes, then maybe I spawn off Tuesday, but there is also the idea that maybe Tuesday as a 2 liter-only restriction and Wednesday as a 1.8 liter max restriction, or something like that. One night be 6-cylinders and one be 4. I don't know.)

 

[diabolicwyvern]

I did win the Wed. night race Season 2 at Suzuka in the MGF and it rained at the start and I believe it started up again near the end. (But we were running 90 minute races as well)

Voting was worthless IMO. The technical tracks only spread the field. The speed tracks place an emphasis on strategy, but also bagging a race. We should look for tracks that keep the field closer together. Garris, I may have mentioned the following via PM in preseason, but sense next season chat is upon us.... if you truly want to equal everything out you give out winnings based on overall standings and not based on how well you do in the last race. This way a person who sandbags in first doesnt get 20K. If they fall to 4th overall, they are awarded 5K.

Here's what my idea corrects

Driver A wins opening race (o dollars) then 10th (20K) totalling 25 points and 20K.
Driver B gets 3rd in opener (2.5K) and 6th place (10K) totalling 25 points and just 10K.
Lets say both drivers are tied for 3rd.


Driver A has the better car. His car won and now after just two races his earning are double that of whom he's tied with

In the new system, Driver A would get 0 dollars for 1st place and just 2.5K since he would be in 3rd place after the 2nd race even though he places 10th
Driver B would get 2.5K for his 3rd place and then 2.5K for finishing 6th since he would also be tied for 3rd.

Now the person with the better car has won just 2.5K while the person in third has 5K. I do realize this could be exploited, but that exploitation will only net a person their overall place and not their place in the last race.

Is this making sense? Rather than change everything from the cars, to the tracks, to engine size and weight, we can correct a lot with this reward system. Can anyone find fault with this system? Any thoughts?

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

I did win the Wed. night race Season 2 at Suzuka in the MGF and it rained at the start and I believe it started up again near the end. (But we were running 90 minute races as well)

Yeah, exactly, hence the idea of homogenization (everyone run 2 L or something like that).

Otherwise, the unwritten rule will be: run a small MR, or don't run at all. I get it, you are a really good driver. You are much better than me. Now, let's move on and try to come up with something that will actually make it racing.

You'll still win, but at least it will actually be a race.

 

[diabolicwyvern]

Please read on with my updated post. It may not occur to you, but I want the races to be as close as possible. I want competition which is why I sent this idea before the season started. Driving alone is boring. Competition, whether it be for 1st or 7th is exciting.

The current system is ripe for gaming.

Giving out money based on overall position is not a be all answer, but it will help.

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

I had forgotten about that, but as I said in the PM, I thought it was a good idea.

Keep in mind, going back to alternating the tracks like we did last season won't affect who wins in the end, it will just keep things closer and more dramatic as the season goes along.

As to the cash system you propose, I do like it. The only thing I can think to point out is, there are some cars that probably don't need as much cash. I don't have any ideas on how to identify or balance that, other than homogenization.

 

[diabolicwyvern]

If you want to pick the cars we can use I'm fine with that. But this system of rewards would bring about the end of bagging in the worse sense. Drivers will earn their position which should end up rewarding consistency I hope.

 

[BTK]

I'm not feeling limiting the whole engine size thing, I feel as it would just limit car's to small car's with big engines. You're basically letting in a field of Ginetta G4's which is not cool. I love the pp system, just need to update the points system. I love the pp we're at, if we run next season at the same pp, I would love it. Just tighten up the pack with money.

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

I just don't want to see next season dominated, again, by small mid-rear sports cars.

With your proposal Diabolic, I got to thinking, I could see several people trying to sandbag the first race, to inflate their average. Really though, I think you are right, sandbagging later in the season doesn't work.

Just hosted the 450PP room this evening. Wasn't a lot of turn-out, but for one race, Dabney and Leadberd joined me in RX-8s. We had one other RX-8 and an RX-7 join us. I should've saved the replay.

Anyway, I was almost able to hang with whomever I was behind. I couldn't get fast enough to pass them, but I was just about able to keep pace. One driver was faster than me and got by me. But the next three passed me when I made a mistake.

It is a catch-22. I can not push it and focus on making less mistakes. I won't be able to pass anyone, and will likely go slower, and fall behind. I can push it to try and keep up and pass, and then make mistakes and fall behind.

In the Lemon series, I've been trying to just avoid mistakes. So far, I've only managed one clean race a season.

And I don't usually finish well in that race.

 

[chuyler1]

I think Diabolic is on to something. This concept seems to work great for about 3 races. After that, cars get split into front runners and back runners, and often times the front cars are very split. The cars bounce around from race to race, but there are very few lengthy battles.

The original goal was to allow drivers to pick something, anything, and stay competitive by balancing the car's performance with the driver's ability. I also liked the idea of using stock suspensions, lsds, and transmissions becuase it forces you to drive the car as-is...sort of like shuffle racing.

That concept has since morphed into a strategy that involves picking the fastest car you can find at the initial pp limit and sandbagging at least one race to get enough credits to purchase high ticket items for your car.

Some other series use ballast to balance cars. I'm not sure how well that works.

Ideally we want the cars to be competitive with one another every race...but its difficult to do that when some drivers are inconsistent from track to track. And obviously off-track escapades don't show a car and driver's true pace. There is no system that will equalize the driver who ends up in the sand trap several times with a driver that runs a clean race.

 

[dabneyd]

Huyler, I was just watching the ALMS race and thinking about how they keep the different cars balanced and competitive so I looked up their specifications. They seem way over powered to be useful for this series, so I looked up the SCCA World Challenge specs and they could be a decent reference.

http://www.world-challenge.com/files/competitors/Appendix_A_Ver_41.pdf
http://www.world-challenge.com/files/competitors/Technical%20Bulletin_017%20.pdf

The first link is the vehicle specs and the second is weight "rewards." I like the idea of maybe having two classes of car, I don't know how anyone else feels about that.

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

Ideally we want the cars to be competitive with one another every race...but its difficult to do that when some drivers are inconsistent from track to track. And obviously off-track escapades don't show a car and driver's true pace. There is no system that will equalize the driver who ends up in the sand trap several times with a driver that runs a clean race.

Something I've thought about, but this requires a bit of time on our part, is cash is allocated based on fastest lap, not final position.

It keeps bouncing around in my head. I can't square it as a "good idea", but it addressees the idea of focusing on how good the car is when the driver is clean, and not allocating too much cash because the driver wrecked himself. Ideally, it would encourage us to focus on just being clean.

The problem I tend to run into is this:

If I run my car conservatively but consistently and clean, then I'll place lower. I'll get more cash, and the car should get faster. As long as I drive conservatively and consistently and clean, then I should start to catch up with the leaders because the car itself should be fast enough to compensate for the difference ability.

The reality, particularly this season, is my cleanest practice/qualifying lap is several seconds behind the leaders. Every single race. That hasn't changed. So even if I don't wreck, I'll still finish poorly. The difference is, because I do wreck, I finish 11th instead of 9th.

This is going off on a tangent, but to frustrate me even more: I started Nurburgring in 12th of 12. On lap three, I had gotten up to 6th. Everyone behind me had gone off track and had to pit. Even with that, several of them were catching back up to me and would've passed me by the end of the race. My fastest lap, while drafting Dabneyd, was only an 8:38.

I pushed it, however, and wrecked it big time and my lap three took 12 minutes.

The first link is the vehicle specs and the second is weight "rewards." I like the idea of maybe having two classes of car, I don't know how anyone else feels about that.

I'll have to look at those links. Weight may help, but at the same time, we have dramatic differences in driver ability that ALMS and SCCA and BTCC don't have.

All in all though, there is also this to consider: Some of us just truly can't keep up. I am just that bad a driver. And the only thing that bothers me about that is that I can't think of a way to have just a race with other bad drivers. You can have a race with only good drivers. You can set up a qualifying session and say, "In bone stock car X you have to get around track Y in time Z." I don't see the inverse of that working.

I am getting better, though, so that is good. Last night in the 450 room, there were two races where I was able to keep up with some cars infront of me. I actually followed Dabneyd for over a lap around Tsukuba closer than I've ever followed anyone. And coming out of each corner, I could get on the gas before him and almost get my fender beside his back bumper before he got on the gas and pulled away.

I pushed too hard (which seems to be what I always do, but I wasn't going to get around him unless I pushed) and the back got out and I stuffed it.

(wow, that is a long, rambling post)

 

[diabolicwyvern]

Its nice to read conversation within a thread that directly relates to improving the series

 

[dabneyd]

I can't think of a way to have just a race with other bad drivers.

Two classes! I was thinking that if you placed in the top half of the previous season, you are eligible for the faster class of car, GT. If you're new to the series, you have to start in the slower class, Touring. For seasons after that, the top four from the GT remain, while the top four from Touring move up to the GT. Sadly for the bottom four of GT, they get demoted to Touring.

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

Two classes! I was thinking that if you placed in the top half of the previous season, you are eligible for the faster class of car, GT. If you're new to the series, you have to start in the slower class, Touring. For seasons after that, the top four from the GT remain, while the top four from Touring move up to the GT. Sadly for the bottom four of GT, they get demoted to Touring.

Well, now the two classes ideas makes a more sense.

They can run at the same time, but that means we have to limit each class to 8 drivers (or 7 reasonably). Unless we want to have them run in two separate rooms, which could work if we had enough interest.

I'd hate to say Tuesday is Touring (or whatever) and Wednesday is GT (or whatever) because I'd hate to have someone eligible for GT, for example, but unable to make Wednesday (and vice versa).

 

[dabneyd]

Yeah, I was thinking either seven or eight per class, and having the two nights remain separate. That's plenty of competition in both classes IMO. Look at the standings now, the top half are in a competition of their own. I really like the idea of running both classes at the same time so that slower/faster drivers can become a part of strategy for either class, however, we may run into issues with collisions. We may be able to avoid that by having a stricter and more defined penalty system.

 

[pyxen]

I wouldn't be a fan of running separate rooms for gt and touring... Half the fun is the mix of drivers! I think I can say I'm middle of the pack in skill, and on a good day can hang with leaders, so wouldn't want to lose that.

Part of me also thinks that (like the WRS) you naturally fall into competition with certain drivers, and not with others. As a D4 driver, the D1 Aliens are great fun to race with, but there's no way in hell that I'd ever be able to keep up with them lap in and lap out..every now and then tho, you do get the chance to draft around a track, and learn a thing or two! Can only get better by driving with better drivers.

Actually, for that reason, I think I like our current 'PP-based' format better... Its not the cars, but the awards that need adjustment!

 

[chuyler1]

This is all very interesting discussion. A 2-class system on the same track is something I've wanted to try but I'm not sure it really works with Lemons. I was thinking more along the lines of GT500/GT300 or something like that.

I also like the idea of best lap times dictating rewards, but there is still sandbagging opportunities in a system like that...and one driver's best lap under drafting may appear quicker than anothers flying solo.

This season we dropped the rewards for the lower placing cars. It appears to have closed the gap a little...but we'll see how the next few races go. From what I've seen on Wednesday nights, competition is very close in the middle of the pack. There are some outliers each race but the battle for 3rd through 8th is cut-throat.

The problem is that cheap parts run dry after 2 or 3 races and you can be left with money to spend and no parts in your price range. I'm thinking a PP allowance based system would resolve that, allowing drivers to use some power reduction to install a part and then back off the power....but the question remains as to whether adding and removing parts is in the spirit of lemons racing.

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

Well, if we did two classes, maybe one could just be open, and one could be either same make, or very similar: Like, the same size engine, maybe even the same drive layout (all FF).

Or they could simply start at different PP levels. One starts at 385 and one starts at 410, or 435, or whatever.