Lemons to Le Mans Season 3 Tuesday Series: Final Race, Tuesday 11 October 2011

[diabolicwyvern]

2'01.xxx was leading last night, but I bet someone with $$ invested from last race break 2'00.. I will be running 2'04s and hoping for no worse then 6th. With only 213HP...speed is not one of my better attributes.

 

[bender2011]

Two laps longer and Cujo and I would have had Miata. I'm still a bit peeved about his strategy. I asked last week about his braking and never got an answer. I was several seconds faster each lap but was never given the opp. to pass. I couldnt go risk two wide in the rain and he knew that so he went 12 mph through the corners and just used his cars speed on the straight to get back ahead. I despise that logic. Had he let me by...

I wish I could take full credit for your complements concerning my defensive driving. As the OLR's state " A leading driver can drive any line which they feel is the most inconvenient for any following car to try to pass them."

I'm really just driving the way my car dictates. My Altezza is a luxury sedan not a sports car. With stage two weight reduction it still weighs over a metric tonne.
It's rear wheel drive, 55/45 weight balance AND I'm using the stock four speed transmission.
I've tried the full transmission in my test car on every track and I'm always faster with the stock. Maybe because I play with a DS3 and automatic shifting.
The tall gears seem to help me stay in the best hp/torque range rather than shifting up to high rpms more often.
So, I need to apply brakes early and smoothly, roll through the turns and exit with all possible speed.
If I late brake or tap brakes mid corner I get under-steer and front tire wear because it's front heavy.
My only strategy is to be consistent lap after lap and not crash.

 

[pyxen]

What lap times do we need to run @ Daytona road course to be competitive next tues.? I'm @ 2:02 today.

I was running 2'01s, but had only added a high rpm turbo to my test rig (spent half of what I have available from the last 2 races....) With such an open track based pretty much purely on speed, I'll have to be a complete moron to lose the next one (didn't I say something like that about nurb?)

24hrs @ Nurb video from the BMW team trailer is up!

 

[diabolicwyvern]

I wish I could take full credit for your complements concerning my defensive driving. As the OLR's state " A leading driver can drive any line which they feel is the most inconvenient for any following car to try to pass them."

I'm really just driving the way my car dictates. My Altezza is a luxury sedan not a sports car.

1.G You are expected to behave like sporting gentlemen at all times.

Every disadvantage you named was an advantage for me. I realize the above notion is considered racing etiquette (sp?) and I can accept that when cars are in equal classl, but I was unable to get around you Only due to track conditions and not your lines. The OLR states trailing drivers are made to take a different line, but there are no other lines one can safely use in the rain. It may not be required by OLR standards, but I would have let a car significantly faster (heck, statistically significant) faster through. To me, its in the same vein as being raced by lapped traffic.

I gained nearly 20 seconds on you over a handful of laps.
A good sport would have let the car better fit for the track through.

I'm still a bit anerved, but I realize now that it means I can get 6th next week to afford my Turbo charge and not 10th. Points-wise, if I'd thought about it more, getting 6th both races (18 points) is better than getting 10th and 4th (16 points), which is where I would have landed had I not lost the time following you. So...thanks?? Yea...thanks works.

=====================================================================
Now for something lighter.

the official 24 Hours of LeMons Rules and Regulations verbatim.

6.1: Individual Lousy-Driving Rule: Lousy driving--which includes, but is not limited to, unnecessary contact, overly aggressive driving, chopping off other cars, unsportsmanlike conduct, lack of car control, just generally being an idiot, and/or proving an undue pain in the butt to fellow competitors--will result in a black-flag penalty for Lousy Driving.


And by special request

6.3: Why Am I Upside-Down? Rule: You're upside-down because you have no business being out on a racetrack. Any driver who puts a car on its roof is out for the rest of the season, beginning immediately. Any car that rolls during a race will be removed from the race.


Possibly the best bit of regulatory speech I've ever read.

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

Diabolic, I'm sorry, but I'm with Miata. I don't see any reason for him to move over and let you by. It was for position. If you can't get by him cleanly, then that is on you. Sometimes it isn't enough to put in a faster lap time.

the official 24 Hours of LeMons Rules and Regulations verbatim.

Is this something you are writing or quoting? Sorry if I missed the joke on that one.

 

[diabolicwyvern]

Quoting. From their website. The rules are riff with commentary. Its a great read.
Not sure if its kosher to to put link here, but you can google the 24 hours of Lemons and read up. 👍

And thats fine Garris. In the moment, I was upset. This morning I was peeved. Now I've moved on. Live and let live. Besides, this coming week he'll be ahead of me...his car is quicker than mine. Heck everyone's car aside from Bowties is quicker than mine. I'm just preparing for LeMans now.

 

[BTK]

Diabolic and I were chatting last night after the Wednesday series race, and we've come to a great solution to our split field.

Leave the money alone, and tighten up the points. Four points separate first and second, which makes driver's (including myself) either, finish first, or sandbag and get thousands more in cash. If we eliminate the huge gap, or drop it down to two points, it would reduce the sandbagging.

Also, we are in agreement, that a lower starting pp, will eliminate all of the MR2's or Talons. If we start at 320pp, or 340pp, it will remove all of those crazy fast Mid-ship's and eliminate the fast FF's that have 6k horsepower at the end of the season. A 320pp, would open to a more creative field, as we will have Kei cars, smaller FF's, slow FR's, basically, 10x more balanced. This way, we don't have 7 MR2's on a track together.

Next, we spoke about the track selection at the moment. We have no problem with the tracks we picked (since it was a poll and WE chose them), but it seems that it was technical courses at the beginning, and high speed tracks at the end. We're going to have to level it out somehow. Chuyler said that he didn't want Daytona early because it's hard for lower level driver's on CS. Makes sense, but let's dump Suzuka, and pick another rain track. (There was talk of totally removing a rain race, it's up to you all, I don't mind either way.) The high speed courses are at the end, and if we have 30+ courses, I don't think we should repeat one except for La Sarthe of course.

Finally, we were talking about having a dirt course. We have yet to have a dirt course in the LeMons series, and I believe it will add to the variety. Sure, more prone to accidents, but what if we allowed traction control? (I won't use it, but some guy's who don't do much dirt might like it.) If we place it earlier in the season, or dead in the middle, I think it would level out the vehicles. The fast car's would spin, and the higher pp, the more difficult rally racing is to drive. (Would make finishing higher in points more favorable.) I think Toscana would be a perfect rally course, as it doesn't require a car with huge torque to climb an epic hill like Eiger. Plus, there is plenty of area to run off to save a spinning car. It would take practice, but we can do it.

That's all we talked about, and then we raced Chevelle's on CS. That was fun!

 

[dabneyd]

I'll take a DNS over an hour on the dirt in a Lemons car.

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

Awesome ideas. Everyone, please, bring them forward.

I'll start with the first idea, closing up the points. I think it is a good idea, but I think everyone will have more fun if we split the field into two classes, and I think that will accomplish the same thing.

Regrettably, I can't tell if the money was better this season or last. I think the track selection has spoiled those results. For now, I say leave the money as is. I don't know what the points should be (with a maximum of 8 cars in a class instead of 16) so we may need to tweak it, but I just want to scale it so it fits that field. I think two smaller fields of more balanced drivers (and maybe cars) would promote more racing and less sandbagging.

As I said before, too, there should be no positions (like 10-16 this season) that give the same points.

Your second idea was a lower PP. Well, the Talon actually starts quite low, so you would have to get into Kei territory to exclude it. I, for one, wouldn't be too excited about driving Kei cars. This may sound daft, but it is my experience that with very slow and very fast cars, driver ability is very important. I think moving to Kei cars will just widen the gap between drivers, not help close it.

Having said that, again, I am sold on the idea of two classes, but I know we haven't committed to that, yet. I think the top class, or Open class, should be any car that is 10 years old that starts under some PP level. I'm fine with keeping it at 385 PP like we had this season. If drivers want, we can push that up or down a little bit (375 to 400?). I think 390 might actually be a very happy magical place. There were some great cars that came in just at 386 or 387.

I think the bottom class should be homogenized. I know not many others are sold on that idea, but simply setting a PP level won't help balance the cars in that PP range. And bare with me for this...

I don't really mind the small MR-2s, MR-S, MGs, and such winning the whole series. I don't mind that the go-karts do so well over all. What bothers me is, they are tricky cars to drive. And only the good drivers are going to drive them. We have technical courses and speed courses (more on that later). The go-karts dominate the technical courses and only have to fair well in the speed courses to win the series. The faster cars aren't consistent in the technical courses, so even if they dominate the speed courses, they didn't fair well enough otherwise.

I'd be less bothered if the good drivers opted not to take them. The sad thing is, I think these good drivers would still win the series. But at least the races would be a little closer at times.

So, I'd like to pick something to get the bottom class into more similarly aligned cars. Maybe 360 PP and all 2 liter, or all hatchback, or all FF, or something. And the big question will be, is there enough car variety at any of those points to make it interesting. My goal there being, the poorer drivers don't have to feel pressured into getting into one of the better performing but harder to manage cars. I'll be honest, if we don't change the rules, I'm running a go-kart next season. And I'll probably wreck a lot, trying.

Track selection: My big complaint here is that the drama is gone. I think if we ran the season with the same tracks, but in a different order, the points would be closer at this point in the season. Last season, we did a technical, then a fast, then a technical, then a fast.

Yes, it did feel like the winner of a race was being double penalized. He won the type of track he was good at, didn't get any money, and had to go into a type of track he wasn't good at next week. But in the long run, the kept the drama up over the season.

I think the same cars would win, but at least we'd have to wait until the end of the season to declare the winner.

As to dirt track: I don't like it. Sorry. We have enough problems trying to keep people from crashing in the rain.

As to individual courses: I think we should always start at GVE-R and end at La Sarthe with a 24-hour cycle (no rain). I actually think the La Sarthe race should be 90 to 120 minutes, even if we keep the rest of the season at 60 minutes. I think we should alternate between technical and speed. I don't like the Daytona road-course or the Nurburgring because the race is decided by wrecks. At Daytona, you are going 150+ MPH straight at a wall (twice even). You have to wait until the last moment to brake so you don't have a rubbish lap. Invariably, someone will miss the brake point and paint the wall. And Nurburgring takes forever to get to the pits.

Oddly enough, I don't mind Madrid or Monaco. They have no run-off. You have to be clean. I don't mind that idea. I just don't like courses that seem to promote a wreck.

All in all, I don't mind having a vote for tracks (and exclude the 'ring). But then we order the tracks not by number of votes, but by tire (there should be only one rain course, and it has to be the 5th race), and technical/fast alternating.

 

[BTK]

I just don't see how regulating by liter is going to make a difference, everyone will now be searching every car for the lightest one. I say the PP is the best way to regulate it. But, if we're going to do two classes, one atleast needs to be below 340pp, because by the end of the season, we would have cars in the slow class that are faster than cars in the big class. It will cause a HUGE crash.

EDIT:
Also, for the comment on worst drivers. I would bet you, that all the "good" drivers (kind of wrong to call them that, let's say more experienced) will get in the slower class, because it's new territory, and new challenges. Besides, the LeMons series, is not only here for drivers to compete and claim bragging rights, but to also learn new tricks. If they don't challenge themselves, then why even show up? I'm not necessarily choosing the MR2 because it's faster, I just want the challenge of racing the supercharged version, and trying to learn how to save tires in a car that's eats them like candy. (Yes, I know FF's do it too, and much worst in most cases.) I promise you I had no clue that my little Nissan would be fast in the Tuesday series, all I knew was that it would go a lot longer on tires. I figured I would challenge myself to see if I could make it faster, and so far I've done that.

 

[chuyler1]

I hate to say it, but i'm beginning to lose interest. With the sand bagging and inconsistent driving, there just isn't much action on the track. Either i'm too slow to keep up, or too fast for anyone to chase me. I'd like to see some significant changes next season to improve things and make each race more like the season opener.

Anyway, to comment on Bowtie and diabolic's suggestions...

a) points: I suggested changing the points in each of the surveys but never got enough feedback about it. We can certainly change them up if it helps reduce the sandbagging strategy

b) Lower PP: I actually thought drivers would want to increase to 400pp, but I'm all for going lower and picking some more junkers. However, I think any pp level will have some fast cars.

c) track selection: dirt track, fast track, slow track, you name it, we'll do it. Personally I'm not a fan of any fast track. I tried twice to ditch le Mans because drivers put too much focus on top speed for that one race. The problem with dirt tracks, however, is damage and pit stops. Except for generated dirt tracks, there are no pit lanes (unless i am drawing a blank). Damage might make things interesting, but it would probably just piss off the good drivers on a dirt track when someone at the back plows through the entire field.

d) turbos and superchargers: here is an item that i think might level the field. The one item on the parts list that drivers want first is a turbo or sc. it gives you an amazing boost of power and will separate you from anyone who doesn't have one. Outlawing them would force drivers to spend money on parts which build up their cars in a more linear fashion. We could still allow a turbo upgrade prior to the start of the season, but i think they shouldn't be bolted on after the first race. Had I won last night, i would have had 2 first place finishes in a row after sandbagging one race. That really shouldn't happen.

3) tires: These cars are painfully slow and racing tires just don't belong on them. Or at least racing mediums and racing softs. I'd rather see the season end on racing hard tires and have multiple races on the other compounds before reaching that.

 

[BTK]

3) tires: These cars are painfully slow and racing tires just don't belong on them. Or at least racing mediums and racing softs. I'd rather see the season end on racing hard tires and have multiple races on the other compounds before reaching that.

I'm all for starting on Comfort Mediums, we need two races on Comfort tires, because it just seems that we do one race on a hard compound, and then we step up into a whole new level. I say we drop the rain race, and keep Hards at the end. If we need to we might do the rain race at the very end, to level out all the Super crazy fast cars. This would be very interesting.

If we drop La Sarthe, that means we need to rename the series though, and then we should never repeat tracks season after season. Atleast keep one, or constantly change them, so nobody has an advantage of remembering old shortcuts, etc.

EDIT:

The thing on Turbo's, this does mean that people will look for the lowest pp car they can, so they can fit a turbo in on preseason. I like them being in the series, it means that they HAVE to piggybank to get it, or completely sandbag a race. I don't have a problem with sandbagging personally, sure it takes away from the racing, but that means if you're strategy is good enough, you have a little breathing room, or if you crash, you have a chance to stay in the championship. Don't hate it, use it to your advantage.

 

[chuyler1]

Perhaps next season will simply be "Lemons Racing" then.

 

[chuyler1]

Also, a fun round might be to do a no-pit track like London with damage on light. The focus would be on tire conservation...but instead of an enduro, we could do 4 15 minute races. I'd do an enduro, but it wouldn't be fair for the FF crowd.

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

I just don't see how regulating by liter is going to make a difference, everyone will now be searching every car for the lightest one. I say the PP is the best way to regulate it. But, if we're going to do two classes, one atleast needs to be below 340pp, because by the end of the season, we would have cars in the slow class that are faster than cars in the big class. It will cause a HUGE crash.

EDIT:
Also, for the comment on worst drivers. I would bet you, that all the "good" drivers (kind of wrong to call them that, let's say more experienced) will get in the slower class

And regulating by liter may not be the right way to go.

The problem with he first season was the Evos and STis were the best bang-for-the-buck. The problem I see now is, the go-karts are clearly where you want to be. I just want to put something in place so there isn't a clear I-win-car.

As to getting into a class, I don't see that as a choice. The top drivers are put into the top class, and the bottom drivers are put into the bottom class. You don't get a choice. At the end, the bottom three top drivers and the top three bottom drivers swap.

And regardless of what we do, I expect there will be times when I bottom class car passes a top class car. I don't see it causing any more wrecks than one would see in multi-class racing.

I hate to say it, but i'm beginning to lose interest. With the sand bagging and inconsistent driving, there just isn't much action on the track. Either i'm too slow to keep up, or too fast for anyone to chase me. I'd like to see some significant changes next season to improve things and make each race more like the season opener.

Anyway, to comment on Bowtie and diabolic's suggestions...

Well, I suck, and this is the only series where I feel comfortable sucking. We will continue on if you don't want to. I completely understand.

As to PP, I think going too high is going to make things get out of hand. We'll wind up with some crazy fast cars. Again, I don't want to run a Kei car league because that is all about driver ability. My focus is to find a way to have balanced, close racing.

As to turbos, it is actually one of the last things I pick. For one, there is turbo lag to deal with. I didn't pick the turbo on either the Talon last season or the Varieta this season until I had the intake and exhaust systems completely upgraded and had at least the first engine tuning done. Lag is a killer. Anyway, I think if we find ways to encourage less sandbagging, this problem will resolve itself.

I don't mind going from comfort mediums to racing hards. These are street cars. The only reason I want to go to racing hards is for a rain track. Mind you... it shouldn't be that bad driving on street tires in the rain. I haven't tried it, though.

I'm all for starting on Comfort Mediums, we need two races on Comfort tires, because it just seems that we do one race on a hard compound, and then we step up into a whole new level. I say we drop the rain race, and keep Hards at the end. If we need to we might do the rain race at the very end, to level out all the Super crazy fast cars. This would be very interesting.

If we drop La Sarthe, that means we need to rename the series though, and then we should never repeat tracks season after season. Atleast keep one, or constantly change them, so nobody has an advantage of remembering old shortcuts, etc.

Yeah, like the idea of having anchor tracks. The same one at the beginning and the same one at the end. We all learn those very well so we can focus on our cars and not focus on the tracks. I'm good with changing out the others.

I like keeping La Sarthe at the end, but yes... people do pick a car focused on that, and winning that track doesn't mean you win the series. And that track does have these chicanes at the end of high speed runs which does nearly the same thing that the Daytona road course does.

I do like Monza, but it is sort of in that same category.

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

Also, a fun round might be to do a no-pit track like London with damage on light. The focus would be on tire conservation...but instead of an enduro, we could do 4 15 minute races. I'd do an enduro, but it wouldn't be fair for the FF crowd.

I'd love an enduro, which is odd since I'm crap.

But what if we let the FFs run different compound? Would that help make up for the extra pits? I'm thinking either a compound that doesn't wear as bad, so they don't have to pit as often, or simply one that makes their cars faster to make up for having to pit so often.

Since I think longer wearing tires in the game are all slower, we'd probably have to go with the latter.

 

[chuyler1]

For a race with no pitting, better tires for FFs might work. I'd have to pick two equal cars and race an hour on each to see what happens....but when pitting is involved, it wouldn't be fair...in fact, everyone would end up picking FFs if that was allowed.

 

[GeezerG123]

It seems to me, that if we come up with a good formula, that just limiting the PP for each race would make the comp alot closer. Say the lowest PP is 400 and the top PP and the top PP is 450 use the average as a limit. The limit for each race would, of course, increase for each race. This would also cut down on the sand bagging because the field would be closer in PP as everyone has at least an easier chance of finishing higher for more points thus tightening the gaps.

 

[diabolicwyvern]

It seems to me, that if we come up with a good formula, that just limiting the PP for each race would make the comp alot closer. Say the lowest PP is 400 and the top PP and the top PP is 450 use the average as a limit. The limit for each race would, of course, increase for each race. This would also cut down on the sand bagging because the field would be closer in PP as everyone has at least an easier chance of finishing higher for more points thus tightening the gaps.

I summed everything up last night with bowtie like these:

Next season will be great if before it starts, at least one of us thinks about giving a Kei car a chance. If someone thinks...A kei car might just work If that thinking is mutual among drivers it will mean the starting PP is low enough and the track selection is just right. I dont know precisely what the courses should be or what the power/tires ought be, but I know I'd like to give a kei car a second look before next season. (We would probably need to make transmissions free though since top speed will suffer in the little guys)

 

[BTK]

Thank you. I say we take a poll on the PP. I also don't think you should stick a more experienced driver in the fast class. I WANT a slow car, lol. The thought of having a 500pp lemons car doesn't register in my mind.

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

It seems to me, that if we come up with a good formula, that just limiting the PP for each race would make the comp alot closer. Say the lowest PP is 400 and the top PP and the top PP is 450 use the average as a limit. The limit for each race would, of course, increase for each race. This would also cut down on the sand bagging because the field would be closer in PP as everyone has at least an easier chance of finishing higher for more points thus tightening the gaps.

Limiting the PP for each race? Okay... I don't know how to explain the idea other than to say this:

Every night there is 450 room up that has little 3 to 8 lap races. I don't often go, but when I do, I usually lose. Well, I always lose, but I'm usually dead last. If I hang with the pack at all, I consider that a victory. I went three nights in the last week, and I actually finished one race in second place. That was just amazing.

The point is, I'm such a crummy driver, that if we are in the same PP, I will lose. For me to even be competitive, I need to have a faster car. That, to me, is the point behind the series. I lose, I get more money, I get a faster car than you, and then we can actually have a race where I may or may not lose.

If you set a PP limit for each race, then all you are doing is giving the better drivers victories every week and not giving poor drivers like me any reason to show up.

I summed everything up last night with bowtie like these:

Next season will be great if before it starts, at least one of us thinks about giving a Kei car a chance. If someone thinks...A kei car might just work If that thinking is mutual among drivers it will mean the starting PP is low enough and the track selection is just right. I dont know precisely what the courses should be or what the power/tires ought be, but I know I'd like to give a kei car a second look before next season. (We would probably need to make transmissions free though since top speed will suffer in the little guys)

As I said before, if we limit everything down to where we are all in Kei cars, then we will have unbalanced racing. The good drivers will always win, because at very low power, driver skill is much more important.

If you want to handicap yourself with a Kei car, go for it. I think you are good enough that you'd still be competitive.

Yes, please, read that again: if we both took Kei cars, you'd win. If you took a Kei car and I didn't (say I take a 1.4-1.6 L roadster, like an old Triumph, or maybe Yaris or something), then you may or may not win. That's all I'm going for, the possibility that I can be competitive.

Thank you. I say we take a poll on the PP. I also don't think you should stick a more experienced driver in the fast class. I WANT a slow car, lol. The thought of having a 500pp lemons car doesn't register in my mind.

Well, I can see putting all the better drivers in the slower class, if they want. I was just thinking that the better drivers could be in an open class. If they want to drive a twitchy MR, they can.

I would like to group the poor drivers together in cars that are balanced, and easy to drive. I don't want them so weak that you must be precise or you'll never catch up, and I don't want them so strong that everyone in that class is wrecking all the time. That is really my goal. The Class-B being slower or faster than Class-A... eh... I can see your point on that. I don't mind.


An idea I had was: why don't we be on the look out for cars for the next few weeks. The week after La Sarthe, our usual down week, we have some little ten to fifteen minute races at different PP levels just to see how much car variety we have and how competitive the cars are. We can do 390, 365, 340, and 315? Or something like that. I don't know what would be good PP levels to test.

 

[diabolicwyvern]

Yes, please, read that again: if we both took Kei cars, you'd win. If you took a Kei car and I didn't (say I take a 1.4-1.6 L roadster, like an old Triumph, or maybe Yaris or something), then you may or may not win. That's all I'm going for, the possibility that I can be competitive.

Why dont you read what I said. I didnt want anyone to be in a Kei car. I wasnt talking about cars at all. If you read, I'm stating that I'd like the starting power/tires/track to make a driver THINK about it. Really, read it. Its all there. I state I would like to give a Kei car a second looks...means I'd be THINKING about it because of how the season was set up...not that I'd abadon chances of winning and hop for one.

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

Why dont you read what I said. I didnt want anyone to be in a Kei car. I wasnt talking about cars at all. If you read, I'm stating that I'd like the starting power/tires/track to make a driver THINK about it. Really, read it. Its all there. I state I would like to give a Kei car a second looks...means I'd be THINKING about it because of how the season was set up...not that I'd abadon chances of winning and hop for one.

My point is, when you get that low on the power band, driver ability is more important. You have to be very precise. You have to maintain momentum.

 

[diabolicwyvern]

I feel like a personal trainer saying this, but I'm starting to get a funny feeling that folks just want to have a fun race week in and week out. Isnt that what clubs and spot races are for. I want to better by decision making, better my strategy, better my ability overall with the game. Does everyone else want to get better? Dont answer, it should be rhetorical.

Maintaining momentum in a car that requires precision will translate to better lap times in ALL cars because it speeds up thought process and reaction. Looking ahead to the following corner while you're approaching the preceding. Its chess on wheels with improvement the ultimate goal. If we keep the gap between available cars the way it is and slower drivers hop for quicker cars, they wont gain much if anything. Meanwhile the rich get richer as faster drivers gain experience honing skills like maintaining momentun, theres that word again, to keep up with the lead cars.

Perhaps next season, tuesday can be the experimental night. Try whatever you wish and if something positive comes about, we could keep it for future use.

 

[chuyler1]

Driver ability is the most important thing no matter what cars are used or what track is selected.

I really don't think we can find a system that will allow drivers to win who cannot keep the car on the track for 60 minutes. Any attempts to make things easier, such as picking easier tracks or reordering things, just make it easier for everyone. If we pick slow tracks thinking speed is the issue, precision drivers run circles around beginners. If we pick fast tracks thinking some room to stretch the engine will help the novice drivers, they just miss their braking points and fly off the track.



I had another thought running through my head about car selection. We've got lots of duplicates this season. We talked about having some sort of selection process last season but never followed through. Two options I'm thinking of are...

1) We have a draft system, where drivers who placed lower the previous season and new comers get first selection of cars. No duplicates are allowed, including cars that are similar. For example, an '89 Miata/Eunos and '90 Miata/Eunos would be considered the same but a '95 Miata would be different since it is an entirely different platform.

2) We have a complex voting system where other drivers pick the car for you. You supply a top 5 listing of the cars you want to run and everyone else decides which car from that list you can run. You may keep the parts used and your times private to force the other drivers to guess which one you think is the best.

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

I feel like a personal trainer saying this, but I'm starting to get a funny feeling that folks just want to have a fun race week in and week out. Isnt that what clubs and spot races are for. I want to better by decision making, better my strategy, better my ability overall with the game. Does everyone else want to get better? Dont answer, it should be rhetorical.

Maintaining momentum in a car that requires precision will translate to better lap times in ALL cars because it speeds up thought process and reaction. Looking ahead to the following corner while you're approaching the preceding. Its chess on wheels with improvement the ultimate goal. If we keep the gap between available cars the way it is and slower drivers hop for quicker cars, they wont gain much if anything. Meanwhile the rich get richer as faster drivers gain experience honing skills like maintaining momentun, theres that word again, to keep up with the lead cars.

Perhaps next season, tuesday can be the experimental night. Try whatever you wish and if something positive comes about, we could keep it for future use.

Yes, and no.

I will never be good. I will never be able to dedicate the hours of practice needed to be good. If all I'm going to do is drive by myself on the same track as others, what's the point?

Mind you, I don't really care if I don't win. I just want to actually have a race. I want a parity device that will group the cars closer together. I can't set up a league of just bad drivers. I can't think of anyway to do that. So, we have this, a league of mixed skill levels, and some parity device to try and make them run together.

I do admit, the parity device is a little broken right now. But I don't see a Kei-car series as the answer to that.

I guess we can test it. Pick a PP level that would be an appropriate starting point for a Kei series. If you are going to have a parity device, what should it be, cash, performance points, ballast? You find a Kei and get it to starting PP. I'll find a Kei and get it to starting PP and then I'll add max one-week parity (unless it is weight, and then you can add it). We'll have a race and see how close it is.

Oh, something I was thinking, and I think someone mentioned this last season:

The cash allocations get smaller as the season goes along. I don't know by how much, but it something to consider.

Another idea that I had, but one that is entirely too easy to rig, is allocate parity not based on your position, but how many seconds behind the leader.

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

Driver ability is the most important thing no matter what cars are used or what track is selected.

I would argue that point.

There are some cars that are easier to drive. A GT-R or an Impreza are easier to get around a course than an Elise or a Zonda. If you can control the Elise or Zonda, they may be faster, but for someone like me, build an Impreza and an Elise to he same PP and I'll usually be faster in the Impreza.

That goes back to the go-kart discussion for this season. It is easily a faster car. But it isn't easier, so it isn't faster for me.

As to tracks, there are some tracks with good runoff so when one does make a mistake, they don't suffer too badly.

Mind you, I really like Monaco. Hell, I was leading the pack at Monaco last season until someone else wrecked me. Monaco, however, has no runoff.

I do agree that not wrecking is vitally important. I don't see the need in whatever parity device compensating for that. If you have a clean race and don't wreck, however, then I think the parity device should at least make it so you are actually racing, and not just driving by yourself.

The problem I usually have is: I'm epically slow. We have qualifying, and I don't have to push it. I'm just trying to get in a clean lap. Which I do. But my best clean lap is seconds (in the plural) behind the rest of the field. So... if I drive the race clean and don't wreck, the only people I'll have any chance at beating are those that do wreck (and some of those will still be faster than me with damage).

So... I push it, trying to make my car go faster, because I know it will (this season, for a while, there was another Varietta on the field). I push it, however, and I wreck.

 

[leadbedr]

Driver ability is the most important thing no matter what cars are used or what track is selected.

I really don't think we can find a system that will allow drivers to win who cannot keep the car on the track for 60 minutes. Any attempts to make things easier, such as picking easier tracks or reordering things, just make it easier for everyone. If we pick slow tracks thinking speed is the issue, precision drivers run circles around beginners. If we pick fast tracks thinking some room to stretch the engine will help the novice drivers, they just miss their braking points and fly off the track.
.

This^^^

The pp level we are at, I dont think you can make a big enough gap for bad driving.
You would have to be close to 150pp higher than the leaders are at IMHO.

Another note. I dont know how many of the bottom drivers do any other races online. I do some, maybe 20-25 a week outside of the 450pp room. I win about 90% of the time. Im not saying im a great driver, but Diabolic, BTK, Huyler, and Cujo are by far the fastest people I race with online.

 

[pyxen]

I'll start with the first idea, closing up the points. I think it is a good idea, but I think everyone will have more fun if we split the field into two classes, and I think that will accomplish the same thing.

I haven't read farther than this yet, and already wanted to say no....I wouldn't have more fun.

...don't have time to read all the posts, but I will...

 

[Cujo 940]

This^^^

The pp level we are at, I dont think you can make a big enough gap for bad driving.
You would have to be close to 150pp higher than the leaders are at IMHO.

Another note. I dont know how many of the bottom drivers do any other races online. I do some, maybe 20-25 a week outside of the 450pp room. I win about 90% of the time. Im not saying im a great driver, but Diabolic, BTK, Huyler, and Cujo are by far the fastest people I race with online.

I'm only fast on tracks I like. It just so happens that I race a lot with u on those tracks So if the lemons series was deep forest reverse, trial mountain, laguna seca etc id be faster.