Lemons to Le Mans Season 3 Tuesday Series: Final Race, Tuesday 11 October 2011

[BTK]

I say we make our changed to the PP, Points, Tires, and Money. Then have a novice class. 16 cars is not enough for 3 classes, just a normal series, and a small points aside from the big points, that is like I said. Rookie of the Year. You can call it novice or whatever you want, it just seems like the best answer.

 

[dabneyd]

I say we make our changed to the PP, Points, Tires, and Money. Then have a novice class. 16 cars is not enough for 3 classes, just a normal series, and a small points aside from the big points, that is like I said. Rookie of the Year. You can call it novice or whatever you want, it just seems like the best answer.

 

[vitin01]

Add divisions to the series (i.e. Slow and Fast, or whatever) then adjust PP, Tires, Prizes and Points accordingly to make it competitive.

 

[Cujo 940]

If things don't change, I'm probably going back to FF.

Not what you were hoping for, I'm sure.




Yes, you just show up and wreck me. I appreciate it.

This is not a problem with America. This is simply a problem of, if I'm going to wind up driving by myself, why bother showing up? I can drive by myself without showing up. Or I can drive by myself in other leagues.

I show up and wreck you....... What race was that in???

And yes, all this whining about trying to make it fair. People just need to rwalize that they aren't good. Now go practice and get better. Wow I've solved the whole issue there.

As Allen iverson said, "we talkin about Practice"

 

[pyxen]

Seems we need to get a new poll going...

On the topic of *this* season, I'll be testing between 730 and 930pm EST tonight...all are welcome to join in the fun!

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

Wow I've solved the whole issue there.

If you aren't going to bother to read the discussion so far, then perhaps you shouldn't be so eager to participate.

 

[vitin01]

@Pyxen
Whats your fastest lap time on the Daytona? I'm getting 2:08.121 with Sports Soft in your Civic.
2:04.741 in Bolaz's Varietta. Have you guys added any parts for the next race yet? Im at 2:11.721 with the Alfa.

 

[Cujo 940]

If you aren't going to bother to read the discussion so far, then perhaps you shouldn't be so eager to participate.

My point is short and simple. Nothing needs changing. Just better driving from participants.

 

[diabolicwyvern]

@Pyxen
Whats your fastest lap time on the Daytona? I'm getting 2:08.121 with Sports Soft in your Civic.
2:04.741 in Bolaz's Varietta. Have you guys added any parts for the next race yet? Im at 2:11.721 with the Alfa.

We'll be on Racing mediums, so I'd test with those. On the order of times...my Wednesday car is down to 2'00.4xx. I can squeeze somewhere between .8 and a second out of the car once I get the suspension correct. (that time was on rain settings)

My tuesday car is 2'04 but that is w/o any parts added. It wont catch the FFs, so I'm not looking to go faster than 2'02s anyway. I a couple K to get the High RPM turbo for Sarthe.

 

[pyxen]

Running 1'58.0x regularly.. $40k buys a lot of juice! I haven't tried without the parts yet..only in my test rig. I'll letcha know what I run in my race rig..

 

[morbo]

my thoughts,

basically i agree with cujo

the disparity is achieved through a failure to practice, or due to a deficiency of skill

i am a great example of that

my car is fantastic this season, i probably don't even ever have to pit (most tracks) since the race time was shortened to 1hr

but,

i make a few too many timely errors

the difference between the leaders and the stragglers is that the leaders barely mess up

i find that when i practice enough during the week before the race, i perform much better, although i am still prone to error

but this season i've had very little practice, and the results are evidence, because without messing up, my car is competitive with most the others

so no matter how many pp i have more than some drivers, they will usually beat me because it comes down to staying on track

basically

and of course there are all sorts of variables and such, but they are almost irrelevant to the disparity that arises from varying abilities

i really enjoy this series

still i am somehow able to remain middle-of-the-pack competitive

i don't think tweaking of rules or other details will achieve the truly desired effect, which is parity

actually, one thing i would like changed is to go back to a slightly longer race, perhaps not a full 90 minutes, but 75 might do it for me


finally, i should say that i haven't read the full discussion up to this point, just page 32, so if i've got the wrong idea, let me know


thanks for reading 👍

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

the disparity is achieved through a failure to practice, or due to a deficiency of skill

As I've said before, those of us who are poor aren't necessarily going to get much better. I am can't spend hours a day practicing (though that would be fun), and I don't have any talent. If we aren't going to fix the parity device, if we are simply going to let the poor drivers drive by themselves, then why would they (me) even want to show up? I can drive by myself by myself.

the difference between the leaders and the stragglers is that the leaders barely mess up

I would disagree with this. I don't know that Diabolic ever runs an entire race without damage (this past week, he was catching up to me after Hellraiser wrecked him). And Cujo is a borderline menace. They are first and fourth.

so no matter how many pp i have more than some drivers, they will usually beat me because it comes down to staying on track

I agree. And as I've pointed out before, staying on track, my fastest lap times are usually well behind the rest of the field.

actually, one thing i would like changed is to go back to a slightly longer race, perhaps not a full 90 minutes, but 75 might do it for me

I actually like the longer races, but at this length, the FFs aren't at such a disadvantage.

 

[diabolicwyvern]

I don't know that Diabolic ever runs an entire race without damage (this past week, he was catching up to me after Hellraiser wrecked him). And Cujo is a borderline menace. They are first and fourth.

MMK had just pitted as well. I dont know if it was on purpose, but he hit me hard enough that I went nearly through the dirt completely on the Spoon. He had run 15+ laps at that point. You'd think he'd have an idea of the brake points.

To the issue of damage. I ran with damage on Nurb twice. On my pit lap, I got confused where the pit entrance was and basically drove right into the wall a corner to early. Took me about 25 seconds to go the last 5 seconds of the course. Then when trying to pass Miata, I went oustide. Dikarika came up behind me quickly and I thought he was going to hit me so I moved to the right mid turn. I hit the wall at about 15 mph...maybe less and got not a small circle, but a big glowing circle! Those put me back to 5th or 6th and still I was in the lead on the last lap Other than that, I do not believe I had damage this season. I think you always believe I have damage because in the first season you were directly responsible for hitting me in just about every race except one and on Cape Ring you actually wrecked me out twice. The race you didnt, AOK wrecked me drivng the wrong way GVE-R. There are many times that I claim to have damage in an effort to mislead other drivers in front of me but very, very, very rarely is the damage I have a result of my own driving. I let cars by at the start if I'm concerened and wait for straights to pass.

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

There are many times that I claim to have damage in an effort to mislead other drivers in front of me but very, very, very rarely is the damage I have a result of my own driving.

And here I thought you were just that much better.

But, yes, I should've worded my first statement better. Diabolic is rarely fortunate enough to avoid being hit.

Still, point remains. Even when I don't have damage, I'm usually slower than the field. And the good drivers can even remain faster than me when they do have damage. So yes, accident avoidance is very key, but it isn't everything.

 

[diabolicwyvern]

And here I thought you were just that much better.

But, yes, I should've worded my first statement better. Diabolic is rarely fortunate enough to avoid being hit.

Still, point remains. Even when I don't have damage, I'm usually slower than the field. And the good drivers can even remain faster than me when they do have damage. So yes, accident avoidance is very key, but it isn't everything.

Just to clarify, I was chasing you and most everyone else the last 10+ laps with damage. I ran my best times w/ damage. I only had a big circle on one corner so after a lap, it was predictable how the car would handle. I have on occasion over stated the amount of damage I have, but anyone with the replay can watch from my cars perspective and see that I do have damage...it may just be better than stated. MMK though did piledrive me into the Spoon...no two ways around it but after driving with damage every race for multiple laps in season 1...I started practicing w/damage because you never know when the person behind you feels like mucking up your day.

 

[pyxen]

And Cujo is a borderline menace.

Lol...CB1 to RF3 - gotta try harder next time. Over.

 

[BTK]

There is too much butthurt in this thread.

Garris, you need to chill the **** out. Raging on people after their every post is getting a little old, you also need to LISTEN. If you ask for suggestions, and shoot them down except for your own, then why ask? It's OK, if you don't like the little "go karts". If you don't like them winning, then drive the wheels off of your FF.

Practice some more, and just because you crash, doesn't mean you park it. Good lord, I had damage at Autumn Ring and had to battle sleightaru for second place. Also, the "You're a better driver then me" excuse is a load of crap. Instead of saying that, why don't you practice some more to get a leg up on the competition. You might actually be a half decent driver, if you put a little effort in.

And no, I'm not raging on you alone, Cujo and Diabolic, are both getting a little aggravated and it's understandable.

My point is, if you ask for suggestions, sit back and think about them. Draw out the pro's and cons, then post your thoughts on it. Also, instead of saying that we're a better driver. GET BETTER. You've played this game as much as we have, I bought mine the day it came out, and I know 10 others that did the same.

Finally, please stop hating on Cujo, for god sakes. Him, his brother, are two of the nicest guys in the series and on GT5. Ask chuyler, Nic, Lead, Dabney, Pyxen, and anybody else you can think of, and they will all say that they're good guys. You're mad at Cujo, because he wrecked you. Get over it. We all crash. People make mistakes, and if he crashed you, I'm sure it was unintentional.

I like the idea of going back to 90 minute races.
I have spoken to dabney, pyxen, Diabolic, Cujo, and leadbedr about these following suggestions and they all agree that it would make the series better.

-320pp
-CM to RM
-Lower money
-Have more variety in course selection, if all else, choose the tracks yourself.
-Tighten points
-All one class but have two points classes.
We will have a normal points, PLUS have a novice/rookie of the year. Any person that has yet to win a race will be eligible, the purpose is too keep guys who are out of a shot at podium, motivated and keep them racing hard.

Done with epic iPhone rant.

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

There is too much butthurt in this thread.

Garris, you need to chill the **** out. Raging on people after their every post is getting a little old, you also need to LISTEN. If you ask for suggestions, and shoot them down except for your own, then why ask? It's OK, if you don't like the little "go karts". If you don't like them winning, then drive the wheels off of your FF.

Practice some more, and just because you crash, doesn't mean you park it. Good lord, I had damage at Autumn Ring and had to battle sleightaru for second place. Also, the "You're a better driver then me" excuse is a load of crap. Instead of saying that, why don't you practice some more to get a leg up on the competition. You might actually be a half decent driver, if you put a little effort in.

And no, I'm not raging on you alone, Cujo and Diabolic, are both getting a little aggravated and it's understandable.

My point is, if you ask for suggestions, sit back and think about them. Draw out the pro's and cons, then post your thoughts on it. Also, instead of saying that we're a better driver. GET BETTER. You've played this game as much as we have, I bought mine the day it came out, and I know 10 others that did the same.

Finally, please stop hating on Cujo, for god sakes. Him, his brother, are two of the nicest guys in the series and on GT5. Ask chuyler, Nic, Lead, Dabney, Pyxen, and anybody else you can think of, and they will all say that they're good guys. You're mad at Cujo, because he wrecked you. Get over it. We all crash. People make mistakes, and if he crashed you, I'm sure it was unintentional.

I like the idea of going back to 90 minute races.
I have spoken to dabney, pyxen, Diabolic, Cujo, and leadbedr about these following suggestions and they all agree that it would make the series better.

-320pp
-CM to RM
-Lower money
-Have more variety in course selection, if all else, choose the tracks yourself.
-Tighten points
-All one class but have two points classes.
We will have a normal points, PLUS have a novice/rookie of the year. Any person that has yet to win a race will be eligible, the purpose is too keep guys who are out of a shot at podium, motivated and keep them racing hard.

Done with epic iPhone rant.

Oh, no, I'm responding, so that means I must be raging again.

First, sorry, but I'm really not raging. I'm really not upset at any of this. These are forums, and people tend to read more hate and vitriol than is actually intended. For me, all of this has just been a very casual conversation. Please, don't take all of this so harshly.

I do feel like I am saying the same thing over and over. I have a goal, I want a parity device that will make the racing tighter. I don't want cars to finish laps down, and I don't want the same people winning every race every week. Those are indicators to me that the parity device isn't working. My only goal is to find solutions to that.

I feel like people are proposing ideas that they are attached to somehow. Maybe it is an idea that they like because it sounds fun to them, or because they are currently doing well in the existing format and don't care to change. I'm just trying to explain why I think those ideas are not the best.

In all of this, I've been agreeing with championing many ideas that others have put forward. I would have to re-read the whole thread, but the only ideas that I can think of that I've put forward have been:

1) track order should done so the points champion isn't obvious halfway through the season;
2) and 10th-16th needs to be awarded different points so there is an incentive when you are in 16th.

I have been championing ideas put forward by others, such as the ones you mention.

I could go on about those ideas again, but I'll wait until later tonight and put together a bit list of all the ideas and the pros and cons for them. In the mean time, I want to point out that I've only parked once this season and that was at Fuji because I had the wrong tires. If you look at the replay, you'll see that my fastest lap (in the 9 or 10 that I did) was something around 2 seconds behind the next fastest lap. And my fastest lap was another 2 seconds faster than my average.

Crap... I was going to be able to get online tonight and practice, but I guess I'll be working on this. This is probably more important.

 

[BTK]

It is more important, thank you for understanding.

 

[dabneyd]

-320pp
-CM to RM
-Lower money
-Have more variety in course selection, if all else, choose the tracks yourself.
-Tighten points
-All one class but have two points classes.
We will have a normal points, PLUS have a novice/rookie of the year. Any person that has yet to win a race will be eligible, the purpose is too keep guys who are out of a shot at podium, motivated and keep them racing hard.

Agreed on all, except maybe 335pp? I think we should vote, but that vote doesn't have to be the final word. We need to go back to alternating technical and speed tracks.

 

[Cujo 940]

Borderline menace.... Are u insane. I Feel like I broke ur favorite toy when u were five and ull never get over it. U want the race to be more fair for you bc u won't ever get better. What kinda logic/attitude is that?!? "If people won't change it, then why should I show up?" A great question id love to answer. You show up bc its fun and you want to do ur best. If there is any menace its certainly not me, its ur attitude

 

[Cujo 940]

Lol...CB1 to RF3 - gotta try harder next time. Over.

RF3 to CB1 no worries!

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

Okay, I've started putting all the ideas into one document:

https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1oAyvl_WuWTbdedkpoIMKTPiIAkDusQ0Ki9m4GyEuKiY

I went back several pages in this thread. I haven't gone through all of the posts, yet to catch up. There may still be ideas to put down.

I've tried to put down a few pros and cons for each one. Some of them were mentioned in the thread, some of them I just added. Some of them I didn't see in the thread and I am short on time right now. In the meantime, feel free to mention pros and cons to add.

I'll go through the rest of the thread up to now and add the rest.

So far, I vote big YES on 1.a, 1.b, 3.a, 4.b, 5.c, and 5.d. I like 5.a.i or 5.a.ii, and as I said before, I think we should have a night were we test out different PP levels to see what would be fun for 2.b.

 

[pyxen]

I do feel like I am saying the same thing over and over. I have a goal, I want a parity device that will make the racing tighter. I don't want cars to finish laps down, and I don't want the same people winning every race every week. Those are indicators to me that the parity device isn't working. My only goal is to find solutions to that.

Garris, while I appreciate that you want to make sure the racing stays somewhat level, it's not going to happen all the time..as people come in and out of the series, the challenge/level of driving will change, and some will fall behind while others excel.

This past week I was down a lap to everyone from 5 (you) up, not because you're all better drivers than I am, but because I couldn't keep myself from beaching in the wet, and I pitted at the wrong time. Once I had my RIs back on and scrubbed in, I was gaining boatloads of time on the leaders, but was already way too far back to make a charge.

I think there's much too much thought going in to this (though I do appreciate a great series, which is what I honestly do believe this is). I support BTK's ideas, and also Dabney's 335pp...what pp level do I need to drive a VW schwimmwagen ? lol

Lets just get back to racing, because I'm sooooo looking forward to wiping the floor with all you schmucks at Daytona.

I'll be providing the swedish meatballs for all in the food court, once I'm done.

 

[morbo]

Again I agree with Cujo

I show up because it is fun, and i want to do my best

it sucks to get lapped

so that's always my first goal (that was my concern last season, this season i'm doing better in that regard)

next, is that after i mess up, i don't continue to mess up, but instead stay focus and make time back as the people in front of me inevitably have their own brain fart or two

other than that, it's always fun and gets the emotions going one way or another

and during many races i see guys driving alone...perhaps they're only 5 or 7 seconds apart, so it feels closer, but what i'm saying is even the leaders end up driving alone after enough laps pass and the field spreads out

i think one of the fallacies is that parity is desirable to the extreme

the only way that can be achieved is with boost enabled, which i would imagine nobody wants in this series

other than that, you guys can tweak things as you like, because the spirit of the series remains the same, and the results will pretty much remain the same too

a lot of it has to do with car selection, and then from there it has to do with being able to make one's car perform to its potential

so, make the changes you guys think are worthwhile, and let's go at it again for a 4th season

until then, i'm probably going to suck at daytona for lack of practice

but sarthe will be a great time for me, i'm really looking forward to that event

 

[BTK]

what pp level do I need to drive a VW schwimmwagen ? lol

325, 335, and it's getting out of it's comfort zone. Don't ask me though, I don't own multiples of all the old VW's.

 

[pyxen]

It's 227pp, so I'm safe as far as I can throw it...though it's also $625k! That's just one big WTF.. ?

 

[BTK]

Welcome to Yemens to Du Mas Season 3, expect plenty of whining, crying, and dying. Have fun, and enjoy the ride!

 

[pyxen]

Wheeeeeee! Please, Sir, may I have another?

 

[chuyler1]

Cash Allocation - Allocate Cash Based on Championship Standings

Who mentioned that one...i kind of like it. It will prevent drivers with tons of points from getting back to the front.

Each Position Worth More Points than the Next
Currently, 10-16 receive the same points. If they were different amount of points, this may discourage parking.

I am against this 100%. The reason 10-16 receive the same points is because at the beginning of the season we might have 16 drivers while at the end we may only have 10 or 11. Placing poorly on the first race and getting 16th place points is a raw deal when other drivers might place 11th later in the season just because there are only 11 cars on the track. With the way races pan out, a top 10 finish involves simply keeping the car on the track. Placing 11th or below simply means you need to work on consistency, and no deduction in points or additional reward money is going to help with that.