Lost Motorsport Talents

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I can think of two American superstars that would have had the resources to succeed but both decided to stay over here: Parnelli Jones (who had a drive offered to him by Colin Chapman but refused it because he wasn't interested in serving as Jim Clark's #2) and Rick Mears (who impressed a lot of folks in tests with Brabham at Paul Ricard and Riverside - and actually went a little quicker than Nelson Piquet at the latter! - but decided he enjoyed ovals too much to give them up altogether). In fact, Herbie Blash, who was at Mears' tests as a mechanic and is now with the FIA, has gone so far as to call him "the lost world champion."

Plus Mears had said he didn't enjoy being that far away from home and dealing with that lifestyle that F1 was known for back in the day and still seems to hold a bit. I mean now American top series see as much stardom power as F1 does so being a superstar in any top series these days isn't really all that different I'd feel.

 

[GTP_Ingram]

JE Vergne, Kamui Kobayashi, Timo Glock, Buemi & Algersuari.

Unpopular opinion: I think Kobayashi was overrated and didn't deserve a seat with a bigger team. I think fans get over-exited by a curious "wacky underdog" obsession which seems to stick to pretty much every Japanese F1 driver.

As for the other names in that list... The more I've watched them in other forms of motorsport, the more I feel that their lack of opportunities in F1 - though harsh at the time - were probably correct. I appreciate Formula E is a different discipline, but based on what I've seen there Algersuari was average at best, while Buemi has a poor temperament and is making a habit of bottling it at crucial moments. Like Buemi, Vergne seems to have trouble keeping his cool during a race (it wouldn't surprise me if that was part of the reason why he lost out to Ricciardo for the Red Bull seat) and he (like Algersuari) has been completely outclassed by Bird in FE.

..Which brings me onto my suggestion. Sam Bird might be occasionally error-prone, but he undoubtedly has raw speed which deserves a chance in F1.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Unpopular opinion: I think Kobayashi was overrated and didn't deserve a seat with a bigger team. I think fans get over-exited by a curious "wacky underdog" obsession which seems to stick to pretty much every Japanese F1 driver.

As for the other names in that list... The more I've watched them in other forms of motorsport, the more I feel that their lack of opportunities in F1 - though harsh at the time - were probably correct. I appreciate Formula E is a different discipline, but based on what I've seen there Algersuari was average at best, while Buemi has a poor temperament and is making a habit of bottling it at crucial moments. Like Buemi, Vergne seems to have trouble keeping his cool during a race (it wouldn't surprise me if that was part of the reason why he lost out to Ricciardo for the Red Bull seat) and he's been completely outclassed by Bird in FE.

..Which brings me onto my suggestion. Sam Bird might be occasionally error-prone, but he undoubtedly has raw speed which deserves a chance in F1.

Sam Bird was always a strange one to me too, and I think it was money that saw him never get a drive. I mean if the likes of Maldonado and Gutierrez can find their way to f1 and keep a seat as long as they got to, then surely a guy like Bird. I mean he spent just as much time as Maldonado in the lower series but was more consistent from season to season.

 

[mustafur]

Unpopular opinion: I think Kobayashi was overrated and didn't deserve a seat with a bigger team. I think fans get over-exited by a curious "wacky underdog" obsession which seems to stick to pretty much every Japanese F1 driver.

I just don't see it, the Fans liked him for his overtaking but alot didn't really notice him unless he was taken out making him look worse then he is, im sure if you watch his career in detail it will show you the story, at no point in his career was a team mate faster then him over a course of the season and when put on the same strategy as them absolutely destroyed them, in 2012 he qualified on the front 2 rows 4 times in a Sauber!(then gets sacked the year after because he had no backing).

Even at Caterham, he held a qualifying advantage higher then any other team battle on the grid(apart from Alonso vs Kimi) and several times outqualified Ericsson by over a second, considering Ericsson isn't looking like the worst driver these days and is pretty much destroying Nasr it shows you Kobayashi wasn't just an average driver.

He is easily the most talented Asian driver to drive in F1, which made his inability to get backing quite unusual.

 

[GTP_Ingram]

I just don't see it, the Fans liked him for his overtaking but alot didn't really notice him unless he was taken out making him look worse then he is, im sure if you watch his career in detail it will show you the story, at no point in his career was a team mate faster then him over a course of the season and when put on the same strategy as them absolutely destroyed them, in 2012 he qualified on the front 2 rows 4 times in a Sauber!(then gets sacked the year after because he had no backing).

Even at Caterham, he held a qualifying advantage higher then any other team battle on the grid(apart from Alonso vs Kimi) and several times outqualified Ericsson by over a second, considering Ericsson isn't looking like the worst driver these days and is pretty much destroying Nasr it shows you Kobayashi wasn't just an average driver.

I'm not sure if making a comparison to Kobayashi's team mates can do much to flatter his ability.

His first full season put him up against Pedro de la Rosa. Yes, he beat him, but de la Rosa wasn't much cop in his prime, let alone when he was 39. Kobayashi did reasonably against Perez in the Mexican's debut season, but - irrespective of his qualifying performances - Perez scored more points and achieved more podium finishes in their second year together. Based on the way Perez has performed since moving to Force India, I get the distinct feeling it wouldn't be quite so close any more, either.

As for Ericsson... Yes, Kobayashi outqualified him by a second-plus on a regular basis, but so did Andre Lotterer* on the only occasion he sat in the Caterham. I really think the only reason Ericsson looks half-decent this year is because Nasr is just as poor as he is (in terms of talent - sadly not bank balance).

Kobayashi had the occasional exciting (but generally over-hyped) moment, but in my opinion he wasn't consistent enough to warrant a drive in a top team.

*and I agree with you about Lotterer - I would definitely liked to have seen him have a proper opportunity in F1

 

[mustafur]

I'm not sure if making a comparison to Kobayashi's team mates can do much to flatter his ability.

His first full season put him up against Pedro de la Rosa. Yes, he beat him, but de la Rosa wasn't much cop in his prime, let alone when he was 39. Kobayashi did reasonably against Perez in the Mexican's debut season, but - irrespective of his qualifying performances - Perez scored more points and achieved more podium finishes in their second year together. Based on the way Perez has performed since moving to Force India, I get the distinct feeling it wouldn't be quite so close any more, either.

As for Ericsson... Yes, Kobayashi outqualified him by a second-plus on a regular basis, but so did Andre Lotterer* on the only occasion he sat in the Caterham. I really think the only reason Ericsson looks half-decent this year is because Nasr is just as poor as he is (in terms of talent - sadly not bank balance).

Kobayashi had the occasional exciting (but generally over-hyped) moment, but in my opinion he wasn't consistent enough to warrant a drive in a top team.

*and I agree with you about Lotterer - I would definitely liked to have seen him have a proper opportunity in F1

What about Hiedfeld in 2010, his incredible 6th in his second race in 2009 including overtaking Button in the Brawn.

There is a reason why im saying to look in detail, points don't tell the whole story. in 2012 Pirelli went extreme with the tyres that's why we had 8 different winners in the first 8 races, what this also did was make it hard for the midfield teams that made Q3, as having New tyres compared to slightly old ones used in Q3 was a massive advantage the ones that used their tyres in Q3 were at a massive disadvantage, drivers like Kobayashi and Ricciardo were hurt massively from this that's why they both got out scored by drivers where slower in Qualifying.

Once the teams started to understand More about the tyres Perez results faded away completely and he didn't score again after Singapore where Koby did 3 more Times, including a podium on a Conventional Strategy at Suzuka, kobayashi also scored 9 times to Perez 7.

Would Perez beat him now? Most probably because he hasn't been in F1 for several years now, but from a Speed perspective Kobayashi had more when they raced as team mates.

 

[DK]

Here's one guy who hasn't been mentioned yet: Markus Höttinger. He was from Austria and looked set for a meteoric rise after coming to the attention of Helmut Marko when he was racing a Renault 5 back in 1976-7. He was killed in a F2 race at Hockenheim in 1980, though. His promise is largely down to the fact that he was one of the first drivers to obsess over their own fitness.

 

[FutureF1]

Might sound a bit crazy but Fernando Alonso.

He had so much more in him. Probably 3 more WDCs and many race wins. He's not gone yet but as each race goes by, his chances of returning to the top step keep lowering and soon enough people may forget about him when the likes of Hamilton and Vettel are breaking records in dominant cars.

I hope I don't live to see the day when no one remembers the brilliant Spaniard who graced the F1 field for 15 odd years. Quite possibly the best who ever lived.

 

[Kingofweasles]

If this topic of discussion is up for champions and race winners as well as F1 "Nearly Theres", then I'll add in Jacques Villeneuve. He came into F1 on a crest of a wave the likes of which only Lewis Hamilton has replicated, won the title in only his second season... and then squandered his best years driving for a big paycheck at BAR, then Sauber/BMW. Also, I always felt that there were parts of his driving style that couldn't really adapt to the narrow-track/grooved tires combo F1 ran from 1998 through 2008 (Much like Alex Zanardi).

 

[TenEightyOne]

Jacques Villeneuve

No.

Spoiler

No no no no no no no no no no.

Spoiler

No.

 

[Tired Tyres]

Ah. Jacques Villeneuve. The driver with the Emerson Fittipaldi touch for chucking away a perfectly good F1 career.

 

[CarBastard]

Living? Kamui Kobayashi. What a wonderful driver, great overtaking skills and car control abilities. It's a shame that the only decent ride he got was as a replacement driver for Toyota.

Deceased? Roland Ratzenberger. Yes, that Roland Ratzenberger. Yes, I know he wasn't fast. But you know what they say: "It's not what you drive, it's what drives you". Would he ever have been champion of the world? Not likely, but he surely would've given a hell of a show trying!

 

[Liquid]

While it's sad that Ratzenberger died, I am skeptical to say that a great Formula One driver was hidden away there. While he had success in other motorsport disciplines around the world, and even saved Anthony Reid's life after a horror crash in Japan, he was a 33 year old debuting pay driver. Unless Ratzenberger was going to do a Damon Hill like when Hill was at Brabham, which he wasn't because Ratzenberger wasn't a test driver for a top team like Hill was, he would have seen out 1994 for Simtek and that probably would have ended it.

He could have gone back to GTs or touring cars and reclaimed a successful career there though.

Funnily enough, some BTCC drivers from the 1990s nearly made it to Formula One:

Kelvin Burt tested for Jordan in 1995 and Arrows in 1996.

Anthony Reid actually signed a deal to race with Jordan back in 1992 but his sponsorship money fell through at the last second and they signed Mauricio Gugelmin instead. To this day he apparently keeps the Jordan letter of acceptance hanging in his office.

Alain Menu had a promising career until his double leg break in 1992 left him unable to sit comfortably in single seaters and switched to touring cars in a full-time capacity.

Hard to say what any of them might have done though. Gianni Morbidelli did race in F1 before touring cars but never seemed to do much or have a good car under him.

 

[CarBastard]

While it's sad that Ratzenberger died, I am skeptical to say that a great Formula One driver was hidden away there. While he had success in other motorsport disciplines around the world, and even saved Anthony Reid's life after a horror crash in Japan, he was a 33 year old debuting pay driver. Unless Ratzenberger was going to do a Damon Hill like when Hill was at Brabham, which he wasn't because Ratzenberger wasn't a test driver for a top team like Hill was, he would have seen out 1994 for Simtek and that probably would have ended it.

He could have gone back to GTs or touring cars and reclaimed a successful career there though.

Oh, absolutely, not going to argue with you there, I don't pretend to picture Roland Rat as an F1 all-time great in the making or as a future F1 champion that only needed hardware to rule the world. My point is he was talented enough to give a good show had he stayed alive for a couple of years more and that, given his backstory and his HU-UGE passion, he would've been at least quite a fiesty mid-pack runner which in those days was no small feat.

I agree, it's a bit of a liberal interpretation on my part, but I do feel that a man who tried so hard to get into F1 was definitely bound for some success.

 

[mister dog]

I was a Jacques fan back in in '96- '97
Little quote from Mansell's bio which i'm reading at the moment:

"I am delighted by the way that JV has performed in his rookie year in F1. What he's done has been marvellous, because no matter how good your car is, it is not an easy task to arrive in F1 cold and win races and make regular podiums in your first season".

 

[TDZdave]

I have some "off the wall" suggestions for wasted talent in F1,

Tacuma Sato, never really got the right drive, showed signs of greatness in an unreliable off pace car, Suzuka 2004 where he was mixing it up with Ferrari's comes to mind, then 2005 happened which was a bad season for everyone in F1, the tire rule was stupid and more or less ruined a season of racing, moved to Super Aguri in 2006, which was a former Arrows chassis evolved by Minardi into the 2006 race car, was scarily off pace immediately but the last 3-4 races he dragged it up the order a lot to finish 11th? I think at the last race of the season, 2007 was a great year for Tacu in such an underfunded team with what seemed to have no development whatsoever,

Juan Montoya, came into F1 in a fire ball of excitement, the very fast and equally unreliable Williams in 2001 really showed his potential, left Williams with a win at Interlagos in 2004 with a car that really couldn't keep up with Ferrari at all, then McLaren and 2005 happened, 2006 started, announced at the USGP that he was leaving F1 for NASCAR at the end of the season, mainly because it was pretty clear to everyone that he was going to be replaced by Lewis Hamilton, didn't tell Ron Dennis before telling the media he was leaving and never raced F1 again as punishment, and didn't race again until his contract expired with McLaren, his last race in 2006 was the Ford 400 at Miami which ended in a fire ball,

Michael Andretti, a case of 'wrong place, wrong time' leading up to the 2016 Indy 500 Marco had a rant about how his father Michael never had the same equipment as his team mate Ayrton Senna, knowing McLaren's history its entirely possible to be true, had this been a year later Michael' F1 story could have been very different,

Robert Kubica, I was a massive fan of him by the 10th lap of the 2006 GP of Hungary, a race that is so weird that has to be seen in full to truly be believed, its a fantastic race, I still believe had he just taken a breathe or two and calmed down a touch he would have won on debut, he was sideways or backwards so often yet he was do fast in the changing conditions, so fast that he got Villeneuve sacked more or less, 2007 and 2008 were fantastic seasons for him, but BMW let him down by shooting themselves in the foot and 'ending development early to start on next years car' I also still think had BMW kept up the development he would have been world champion of 2008, a move to Renault later in a sub par car with an inexperienced team mate didn't yield results they were after, the unfortunate wreck in rallying changed the path of his story,

Bruno Senna, I'm sure everyone will rag on me for this, because he finished 17th while his team mate Maldonado has Williams only race win in the last 10 years, but leading up to that season he was on the up, his half season in Lotus proved his capability constantly matching his team mate Vitaly Petrov who had been in the team for a while and knew the car and personnel better, lets ignore his stint at HRT....

Allan McNish, one lack lustre season in a brand new team, with a whole new car, getting beaten by a Minardi on debut would be the norm for any debut team usually, but getting beaten for 5th by a Minardi on debut isn't usually believed, a great start to a season that seemed to be abandoned as a testing season from round 2 onwards for Toyota, unfortunately both him and Mika Salo were both dropped for new drivers in 2003,

Last one, Ryan Briscoe, explosive test driver for Toyota in 2003 was usually as quick if not quicker then Da Matta and Panis at test days and T-car Fridays when allowed during the year, won the F3 Euro series in 2003 as well, expected to see him in Toyota full time in 2004 but was ignored while F3 runner up Christian Klein got a seat at Jaguar, eventually ended moving to Team Penske in Indycar for 5 years, neither Penske nor Briscoe really seen the best out of each other within Indycar, had Moderate success in the ALMS in the Penske Porsche LMP2 car, now with the Ford GT Ganassi program and being a solid pair of hands,

 

[Pete05]

Craig Lowndes, too. He did a season of F3000 in 1997, racing for Helmut Marko with Juan Pablo Montoya as his team mate, but finished seventeenth overall with a single points-scoring finish - a fourth place at Pergusa - to his name.

To be fair to Lowndes, F3000 was insanely competitive in that time frame with up to 40 cars trying to qualify for 26 grid slots in nearly every race.

To be truly fair to Craig, he (and his manager at the time, Tom Walkinshaw) were promised the world by one Helmut Marko and handed a map.
On arrival in Austria, Lowndes accommodation near the team HQ was, an empty bedsit above the team HQ with not much more than a mattress on the floor. Walkinshaw was absolutely furious.
He wasn't given his own engineer until well into the season & only had access to the one team engineer once JPM was totally satisfied with his car.
To accomplish what he did with what he had to work with deserves massive credit.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Jose Maria Lopez

When USF1 signed Jose Maria Lopez in 2009, it was met with equal parts scepticism and cynicism. Here was a driver with no particularly notable results to his name, about to make his debut with a team whom everyone doubted. If nothing else, it was interpreted as the first sign that all their fears about the team had been realised.

But boy, were we wrong. Six years later, Lopez is a two-time World Touring Car champion and the points leader for the current season. He'll also be joining Formula E with DS Virgin in 2017, and is probably one of the few drivers to qualify for a superlicence without an extensive background in open-wheel racing. At 33, he's probably too old to make his Formula One debut, though.

 

[J_Starscream]

Jose Maria Lopez

When USF1 signed Jose Maria Lopez in 2009, it was met with equal parts scepticism and cynicism. Here was a driver with no particularly notable results to his name, about to make his debut with a team whom everyone doubted. If nothing else, it was interpreted as the first sign that all their fears about the team had been realised.

But boy, were we wrong. Six years later, Lopez is a two-time World Touring Car champion and the points leader for the current season. He'll also be joining Formula E with DS Virgin in 2017, and is probably one of the few drivers to qualify for a superlicence without an extensive background in open-wheel racing. At 33, he's probably too old to make his Formula One debut, though.

I most certainly agree with that!

In 2002, Lopez finished 4th in Formula Renault 2000 Eurocup, winning 1 race and picking up 2 more podiums in 6 out of 9 races.
I've done my fair share of research on Lopez. He was definitely an up-and-coming F1 great.
In 2003, Lopez was racing in the V6 Eurocup with DAMS, winning the title with 5 wins and 7 further podiums. Two of his teammates (Murchinson and Tandt) were relatively quick, regularly showing the pace of the car - outlining Lopez's abilities. We all know Lopez was given Friday test sessions by Renault F1 and it's rumoured he was fast enough to challenge the seat of Jarno Trulli at the time. Considering such a lack of F1 car experience for Lopez and little mileage Renault had actually given him - this was probably in the interest of saving money and gaining mileage for their cars rather than testing the ability of their driver. Such a waste of talent.
In 2004, International F3000, he finished just outside the top 5 of the championship in definitely inferior equipment as his teammate (a fairly average Mathias Lauda) finished way down in 13th with just 2 points finishes.
In 2005, he moved to GP2 with DAMS in, again, an inferior car. His teammate, Fairuz Fauzy - a driver that we all unanimously agree was not that great - finished waaaaay down in 24th place with absolutely zero points with one finish inside the top 9. Lopez finished in 9th place, winning a race and finishing on the podium another two times! He again tested for Renault F1 for mileage.
In 2006 he was still in GP2, but now with Super Nova Racing - another relatively uncompetitive team - and again partnered with Fauzy. Fauzy again finished well outside the top 20 with 0 points and 2 top 9 finishes while Lopez finished inside the top 10 with 3 podiums, and being in touch with 7th place (3 points behind). This time with Renault F1, as well as experience, he was known to be just as quick as Alonso on sheer pace this time around and was actually considered for the second seat in 2007, before Renault gave it to a dismal Heikki Kovalainen - who was actually slower than Lopez consistently during the team tests. Indirectly because of this, Lopez decided to move back to Argentina. (He didn't move home totally because of the seat, funding played a huge part, too).

I suppose now Lopez has huge success in another area of the motorsport spectrum, a place where his potential was set free. He's gone from knocking on the door of setting the F1 world alight to being one of them most successful WTCC drivers of all time.

 

[J_Starscream]

Jose Maria Lopez

At 33, he's probably too old to make his Formula One debut, though.

I wouldn't shut the door on that too quickly. André Lotterer made his debut in 2014 at the ripe old age of 32.

EDIT: Albeit only for 1 race, but a rest-of-season deal was on the cards.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I wouldn't shut the door on that too quickly. André Lotterer made his debut in 2014 at the ripe old age of 32

Well, the earliest he could do it is 2018. He's racing in Formula E next year, so I doubt that he could join a Formula One team.

 

[J_Starscream]

Well, the earliest he could do it is 2018. He's racing in Formula E next year, so I doubt that he could join a Formula One team.

In early 2018 he'll be 34. Based on that I wouldn't rule out a test driver position. Who with though is the question? Taking his past into account I don't think he'd be up for a test role anytime soon lol.

 

[Clark]

Jean Alesi will always be the biggest waste of talent in F1 for me, I know he went with his heart to Ferrari and not Williams but I think he is one of the most naturally talented drivers ever.

Other drivers which I won't go in to detail who deserved more in F1; Stefan Bellof, Michele Alboreto, Pedro Rodriguez, Jochen Rindt, Jo Siffert, Francois Cevert, Wolfgang Von Trips, Mark Donohue, Bianchi.

Other drivers who I think deserved a shot at F1 (or at least a better shot at it) but didn't; Henri Pescarolo, Adam Carroll, Nicola Lapierre, Neel Jani, Brendon Hartley.

 

[R5]

@J_Starscream regarding Lotterer. Now is definitely too late for him to join a team, at least one he'd be happy to race for.

He had a test driver role for Jaguar in the early 2000s and it's a shame nobody really gave him a chance then, for F1 at least.

 

[J_Starscream]

@J_Starscream regarding Lotterer. Now is definitely too late for him to join a team, at least one he'd be happy to race for.

He had a test driver role for Jaguar in the early 2000s and it's a shame nobody really gave him a chance then, for F1 at least.

I wouldn't say it's too late to do spot races, like, part time seasons for maybe two or three years.

However it's definitely too late to get serious with it unless he magically gets picked up by a title winning team.

 

[R5]

I wouldn't say it's too late to do spot races, like, part time seasons for maybe two or three years.

However it's definitely too late to get serious with it unless he magically gets picked up by a title winning team.

The problem is that he would be confined to back of the grid teams, something he himself said he didn't want to do when Caterham came calling.

 

[J_Starscream]

I'm going to change this thread to "Lost Motorsport Talents" to widen the discussion.

 

[TDZdave]

I'm going to change this thread to "Lost Motorsport Talents" to widen the discussion.

Well in that case, lets talk Guy Cosmo, continually been screwed by the driver rating system, dont know how he hasn't got a full time seat in sports car racing,

 

[Clark]

Juan-Pablo Montoya - had he been able to stomach all the politics and atmosphere of manufacturer-filled early to mid 2000s F1 I think he could've been a champion. He had the speed and the tenacity to fight people like Schumacher tooth and nail on track.


Andy Priaulx- could've won so much in a GT3 car or maybe BTCC titles had he not gone DTM when BMW joined a few years ago. Obviously him or the company weren't to know he would struggle with the DTM car so much but it's a shame to not even get a podium for all his efforts, especially considering how much success he couslbe proentially had driving a GT or touring car during those few years.

 

[RazorSharkz]

Tim Richmond, the guy contracted aids in the 80s and died very young. Could have been a multi time Nascar champion.