Lots of Games have it Now. Should GT 5 have a Rewind Option?

[Lain]

By not having rewind in leaderboards, Forza are saying look here's how fast a person can go without rewinding, but they could go faster if they were to use rewind.

Therefore using rewind is in sense adding the ability to allow you drive significantly better than you actually are, and in the world of simulation that would be as incorrect as fitting wings to cars so that they can fly over the corners that require them to slow down.

In fact, nevermind, im probably wrong again. 👎

Well, the thing is that I don't think rewind lets people drive significantly better than they could otherwise.

I mean, you can undo your mistakes, but it doesn't then go and correct them for you. If you suck, your laptimes are still going to suck even with rewind.

If you crash a lot, rewind will let you achieve a really slow clean lap. Yay, big deal. Ruins the game.

 

[RedSuinit]

None of you know what you're talking about. NONE of you can say, it's not realistic, or that Rfactor is MORE realistic and all of this other BS... NONE OF YOU KNOW. How many of you have take ANY car for a drive on Suzuka? Or any other course for that matter? As a matter of fact how many of you have tried to take the kinds of corners that are in this game at the same speeds?

I autocross regularly, and I can tell you, that from my experience as an autocrosser that GT4's physics model is pretty damn good... I learned how to autocross by playing that game, and I have pulled some pretty GD fast times... My first time out they made me remove my N (for novice) after my first 2 runs because I was doing so well...

Oh, and I autocross a 1991 Toyota MR2 Turbo with Koni yellow adjustable struts, and suspension technique linear springs. Makin around 210 RWHP on ~14-15 lb of boost. Stock CT26 turbo on the Gen2 3sgte engine. Tires are 195's on the front and 205's on the rear, Falken Zekes.... I can't wait till I can afford some Hoosier A6's!

 

[Joey D]

By not having rewind in leaderboards, Forza are saying look here's how fast a person can go without rewinding, but they could go faster if they were to use rewind.

Therefore using rewind is in sense adding the ability to allow you drive significantly better than you actually are, and in the world of simulation that would be as incorrect as fitting wings to cars so that they can fly over the corners that require them to slow down.

In fact, nevermind, im probably wrong again. 👎

I still don't see your point, by only having non-rewind times in the leader-board you are keeping it truthful and you are also punishing those who do take advantage of it.

And GT is not a true sim, it's a video game. Yes it's realistic, but it's point is still to entertain you and let you have fun. If adding a feature makes it so more people have fun with the game, then I'm all for it. Not everyone is a hardcore racer.

 

[Lain]

I still don't see your point, by only having non-rewind times in the leader-board you are keeping it truthful and you are also punishing those who do take advantage of it.

And GT is not a true sim, it's a video game. Yes it's realistic, but it's point is still to entertain you and let you have fun. If adding a feature makes it so more people have fun with the game, then I'm all for it. Not everyone is a hardcore racer.

Exactly. And rewind doesn't affect those who are hardcore racers.

So... what's the problem with it?

 

[irnbrutwinturbo]

Well, the thing is that I don't think rewind lets people drive significantly better than they could otherwise.

I mean, you can undo your mistakes, but it doesn't then go and correct them for you. If you suck, your laptimes are still going to suck even with rewind.

If you suck and use rewind, you can keep re-attempting the corner until you get lucky. Keep rewinding on every corner until you got lucky on everyone and you will have a very fast lap time.

I still don't see your point, by only having non-rewind times in the leader-board you are keeping it truthful and you are also punishing those who do take advantage of it.

And GT is not a true sim, it's a video game. Yes it's realistic, but it's point is still to entertain you and let you have fun. If adding a feature makes it so more people have fun with the game, then I'm all for it. Not everyone is a hardcore racer.

I agree. Maybe my idea of fun is different to others, but i would think that the less skilled drivers would prefare to have exceptionally easy/slow a.i that they could 'realistically race' rather than a rewind button to keep reminding them that they are not very good.

Thats why GT has standard/professional physics, and an option to set the skill level of the A.I. in ARCADE MODE.

Exactly. And rewind doesn't affect those who are hardcore racers.

So... what's the problem with it?

Finishing a game like Gran Turismo is an achievement. It takes a certain level of skill to complete, if somebody else can complete the game with half the skill by using the rewind button then the reward is devalued. So those who are hardcore and puts thier game completion stats in their signature, the value of these stats plummets.

In the same way, im not really impressed by someone pointing out to me they completed halo 3.
But, if they showed me the trophy/medal to say they completed it on the hardest level, that would be impressive.

 

[Lain]

If you suck and use rewind, you can keep re-attempting the corner until you get lucky. Keep rewinding on every corner until you got lucky on everyone and you will have a very fast lap time.

You'd have to have a lot of patience to rewind until you "get lucky" on every corner. Most casual players will be satisfied just getting through the corner without crashing, and probably wouldn't even be able to tell if they took the turn well or not.

 

[irnbrutwinturbo]

You'd have to have a lot of patience to rewind until you "get lucky" on every corner. Most casual players will be satisfied just getting through the corner without crashing, and probably wouldn't even be able to tell if they took the turn well or not.

I said CAN, as in with patience they CAN get lucky enough to get the line perfect.

 

[Lain]

I said CAN, as in with patience they CAN get lucky enough to get the line perfect.

And they could get lucky if they tried enough without rewind. Sure it might be more likely with rewind, but it's still unlikely. And with leaderboards that separate rewinders from non-rewinders, is it really so big of an issue that you feel rewind shouldn't be in GT?

 

[Exorcet]

how many of you have tried to take the kinds of corners that are in this game at the same speeds?

Well, you have more experience than me if you autocross regularly, but I'm inclined to think you're mistaken. I've driven a few autocross laps in an FSAE car and I could instantly tell GT4 was wrong. It's the tires really, they just don't handle grip in the same way. When I drove, it felt more like GT5P sport tires except they were much easier to reign in once they let go (the tires on my car were full slicks).

Other than that, you don't have to be a driver to get some idea of what's real and what's not, though track experience would help.

If you suck and use rewind, you can keep re-attempting the corner until you get lucky. Keep rewinding on every corner until you got lucky on everyone and you will have a very fast lap time.

It would only take 10000000000000 tries to get a fast lap doing that. You could relatively easily get a complete lap, but there is no guarantee it will be fast.

I agree. Maybe my idea of fun is different to others, but i would think that the less skilled drivers would prefare to have exceptionally easy/slow a.i that they could 'realistically race' rather than a rewind button to keep reminding them that they are not very good.

Thats why GT has standard/professional physics, and an option to set the skill level of the A.I. in ARCADE MODE.

The physics make the game go from sim to NFS. I don't see how one can defend them and be against rewind if they claim rewind is fake.

Finishing a game like Gran Turismo is an achievement. It takes a certain level of skill to complete, if somebody else can complete the game with half the skill by using the rewind button then the reward is devalued. So those who are hardcore and puts thier game completion stats in their signature, the value of these stats plummets.

That's like saying if you made a free throw from the top of Empire State Building in a hoop 5 miles away, it's devalued because some random guy flipped a coin to decide what he's going to have for breakfast, but changed the outcome of the coin flip. Completing the game with rewind would be different from completing it without. You used Halo achievement example, OK put a trophy in GT5 for beating the game with out rewind (which will make me use rewind once since trophies are terrible, but that's something else).

What if someone completes GT with stnd physics? Do they devalue your achievement?

And I have 196% complete in GT6. Since I said it, does it make it true? Rewind won't cost you anything in bragging rights.

 

[Lain]

Finishing a game like Gran Turismo is an achievement. It takes a certain level of skill to complete, if somebody else can complete the game with half the skill by using the rewind button then the reward is devalued. So those who are hardcore and puts thier game completion stats in their signature, the value of these stats plummets.

In the same way, im not really impressed by someone pointing out to me they completed halo 3.
But, if they showed me the trophy/medal to say they completed it on the hardest level, that would be impressive.

Ok, I can sympathize with you on that point. I can see a simple solution though: Make rewind unusable for the harder races. Limit the number of rewinds to 1 for endurance races, so that you can correct one mistake (everyone makes them) but cannot get by on it alone.

 

[Exorcet]

Why doesnt GT just let us buy guns to mount on our cars?

If you dont want them, dont buy them from the tune shop, its not hurting you. It only adds to game and will bring in a whole new audience of fans into the series.

These arguements could be said about any feature. It comes down to priorities and the rewind feature is way down on the list.

Quite honestly, that shouldn't bother anyone in the least so long as the guns are optional, don't appear in multiplayer/can be banned by host/event, and don't take up dev time. If all three conditions were met, you might not even know guns were in the game, and it wouldn't effect you. The problem with what you suggested happening in reality is that it would be an utter waste of time. But technically, if PD somehow pulled it off right, it could generate more sales = more money and actually benefit the series.

right, but if asked to make a choice, they would opt not to have it. Does that make sense?

No, I didn't vote in the first pole because No wasn't my opinion. My opinion was indifference. And beyond that, anyone on the fence can possibly slide in either direction.

 

[Joey D]

I agree. Maybe my idea of fun is different to others, but i would think that the less skilled drivers would prefare to have exceptionally easy/slow a.i that they could 'realistically race' rather than a rewind button to keep reminding them that they are not very good.

More features to help more people have a greater sense of enjoyment is never a bad thing. Like a lot of people said you don't have to use the feature if you don't want to, the game will more than likely not make you do it.

Finishing a game like Gran Turismo is an achievement. It takes a certain level of skill to complete, if somebody else can complete the game with half the skill by using the rewind button then the reward is devalued. So those who are hardcore and puts thier game completion stats in their signature, the value of these stats plummets.

Finishing just about any game is quite an achievement and it does take a certain amount of skill in order to master it. And rewards are what you make of it, as long as you feel like you accomplished something then it's all good.

 

[irnbrutwinturbo]

It would only take 10000000000000 tries to get a fast lap doing that. You could relatively easily get a complete lap, but there is no guarantee it will be fast...

It wouldn't take as many times as you think. Maybe for the completely useless players, but with half the skill anyone could match top pace using rewind.

Ok, I can sympathize with you on that point. I can see a simple solution though: Make rewind unusable for the harder races. Limit the number of rewinds to 1 for endurance races, so that you can correct one mistake (everyone makes them) but cannot get by on it alone.

Thats yet another addition to made to the game in order to compensate for something over 80% of GT fans on this forum have decided they dont want to see.

Finishing just about any game is quite an achievement and it does take a certain amount of skill in order to master it. And rewards are what you make of it, as long as you feel like you accomplished something then it's all good.

I'll happilly accept your opinions, but for me personally, an achievement is devalued when someone else can take a shortcut to complete it.

 

[Joey D]

I'll happilly accept your opinions, but for me personally, an achievement is devalued when someone else can take a shortcut to complete it.

Why wouldn't it make you feel like you have more of an achievement? You beat something without using a helping aid, that should make you feel more accomplished.

 

[irnbrutwinturbo]

Why wouldn't it make you feel like you have more of an achievement? You beat something without using a helping aid, that should make you feel more accomplished.

It should but your not awarded for it. What motivation is there for getting all golds, 100% career, when the next person can achieve the same with 'rewind' in half the time. On record, you are equal in skill to the person who used rewind, and to distinguish between the two is impossible.

In real life we awarded for our achievements, in many other games your are awarded a title for being the best you can be at a game. If someone else can achieve the highest title without putting in the work, the title is worthless.

 

[Exorcet]

It wouldn't take as many times as you think. Maybe for the completely useless players, but with half the skill anyone could match top pace using rewind

Why do you think so? I have no doubt that with rewind one could sit down and put some time into reaching their maximum potential relatively quickly, but I can't see how it will make them better than they are if they just rewind and randomly throw their car at the corner.

I can kind of see where you're coming from, occasionally, I'll set a really fast time through some section of track. But I can't do it on command, and it doesn't happen quite often enough for me to rely on it. If I had rewind, I can't see it elevating into the top ranking spot overnight, I'd be just as limited by current abilities.

It should but your not awarded for it. What motivation is there for getting all golds, 100% career, when the next person can achieve the same with 'rewind' in half the time. On record, you are equal in skill to the person who used rewind, and to distinguish between the two is impossible.

In real life we awarded for our achievements, in many other games your are awarded a title for being the best you can be at a game. If someone else can achieve the highest title without putting in the work, the title is worthless.

You can't tell if I'm lying if I say I beat GT 100% with a 100% win rate, so I don't get what you're trying to say.

And you could easily tell who did what if you use the trophy I mentioned in my last post.

 

[Joey D]

It should but your not awarded for it. What motivation is there for getting all golds, 100% career, when the next person can achieve the same with 'rewind' in half the time. On record, you are equal in skill to the person who used rewind, and to distinguish between the two is impossible.

In real life we awarded for our achievements, in many other games your are awarded a title for being the best you can be at a game. If someone else can achieve the highest title without putting in the work, the title is worthless.

Isn't it just self satisfaction? I mean do you really need a title or a little trophy to prove that you did something well. Like I said, it's a video game, beating it isn't going to bring you fame and fortune (unless you are really good at it and win contest). It's not like you climbed to the top of Everest or swam the English Channel.

As long as you know you beat it with the use of aids, then that's all that should matter. You beat the game using your own set of parameters.

 

[phil-t]

It should but your not awarded for it. What motivation is there for getting all golds, 100% career, when the next person can achieve the same with 'rewind' in half the time. On record, you are equal in skill to the person who used rewind, and to distinguish between the two is impossible.

In real life we awarded for our achievements, in many other games your are awarded a title for being the best you can be at a game. If someone else can achieve the highest title without putting in the work, the title is worthless.

I can see where you are coming from, but things devolved a long time ago by the introduction of assists in many forms that mean you can effectively accelerate your way through the career should you choose. FM has had the ability to hire AI drivers to achieve 1st place in all races if you so wish, yet no one complains one bit about it, because at the end of the day, single player is what you make it..

In the real achievements (leaderboards, and online), the invalidation of times and inability to use rewind whilst online totally relegate the use of Rewind to a training aid for the more serious, and just another way to reduce the grind for those that don't..

If PD did bravely adopt such a thing, I'm sure they would tweak it accordingly, although I hear absolutely no complaints so far from people who have used it in Grid/Dirt2 and FM3..

 

[irnbrutwinturbo]

Isn't it just self satisfaction? I mean do you really need a title or a little trophy to prove that you did something well. Like I said, it's a video game, beating it isn't going to bring you fame and fortune (unless you are really good at it and win contest). It's not like you climbed to the top of Everest or swam the English Channel.

As long as you know you beat it with the use of aids, then that's all that should matter. You beat the game using your own set of parameters.

In truth i dont care for titles or trophies, but i do care for a mark of distinction.

If someone came into my life and said hey im really good at GT, i've got 100% and all golds. I would immediately think, wow this guy/girl must be good, i wonder if hes as good as me, we should get together and race.

After all RACING is competative, you aim is to be the best in the race.

Now if someone else told me they finished Forza 3, i'd be less inclined to race them as for all i know they could have used rewind to complete the game, and therefore if i was to go to race them, odds are i would just be wasteing my time.

And yes, if someone claims to have completed GT5P on pro physics, with all golds, and then i race them and they're crap. It's there pride at stake as it would soon become obvious they are liars.

 

[Lain]

More features to help more people have a greater sense of enjoyment is never a bad thing. Like a lot of people said you don't have to use the feature if you don't want to, the game will more than likely not make you do it.

It's called a compromise. Because the people who hate the idea of rewind aren't all the people who play GT.

I think the compromises suggested should satisfy all parties.

 

[irnbrutwinturbo]

It's called a compromise. Because the people who hate the idea of rewind aren't all the people who play GT.

I think the compromises suggested should satisfy all parties.

Unfortunately this issue really can't be compromised. It's either in the game, and by that i mean GT mode, or it's not.

 

[Devedander]

If you suck and use rewind, you can keep re-attempting the corner until you get lucky. Keep rewinding on every corner until you got lucky on everyone and you will have a very fast lap time.

Yes and you could restart a race over and over until you get luck on every corner too... more tedius but same result. And remember you still have to actually do it, it's not like rewind lets you actually get an impossible time or something, you just get the fastest time you personally could get. Remember you still have to do it in the end regardless of the method which you use to retry.

Also remember that even when you do get lucky, you get a fast time... but it's a fast time that gets marked as a rewind time so it's not like people are going to mistake it for a clean hot lap.

 

[Devedander]

Unfortunately this issue really can't be compromised. It's either in the game, and by that i mean GT mode, or it's not.

I would think a more proper way to phrase it is "it's either available in the game or it's not". It's not in the game in the sense that you are forced to use it...

Driving assist line is available in the game. You choose whether to use it or not.

The physics of hitting a wall stopping you are in the game. You have no choice to use them or not.

 

[sejtur]

I won't use it as it will interrupt my "flow".

 

[ZenRetro]

rewind is cheating, plain and simple, as is that ridiculous roll over onto your wheels. all this in the greatest sim this generation, or so turn 10 say. i like knowing if i screw up that one corner, i have to do it all again. theres pride in finally being able to nail it.

 

[Devedander]

rewind is cheating, plain and simple, as is that ridiculous roll over onto your wheels. all this in the greatest sim this generation, or so turn 10 say. i like knowing if i screw up that one corner, i have to do it all again. theres pride in finally being able to nail it.

What would your solution be to rollover in a multiplayer race then? Should you just have to sit there upside down the rest of the race?

And if you take pride in nailnig the whole race clean, that's great, I do too! Just like I take pride in not using the driving assist line, just like I take pride in doing it with driving aids turned off...

But for those who can't do it or don't get that sense of pride or for whome the the learning curve is so steep it's frustrating, it's a great way to soften the impact. Let them take it easy and have fun, one day hopefully they will be on par with you and I and be racing clean hotlaps!

In the meantime you and I can simply opt to keep racing clean without rewind.

In fact isn't there something even more prideful about knowing you could have rewound but didn't?

 

[Organ-Donor]

rewind is cheating, plain and simple, as is that ridiculous roll over onto your wheels. all this in the greatest sim this generation, or so turn 10 say. i like knowing if i screw up that one corner, i have to do it all again. theres pride in finally being able to nail it.

I agree

 

[Organ-Donor]

What would your solution be to rollover in a multiplayer race then? Should you just have to sit there upside down the rest of the race?

Not sure, but this just looks silly. Totally takes the realism out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUxVNENan6g

 

[Devedander]

Not sure, but this just looks silly. Totally takes the realism out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUxVNENan6g

That looks silly because someone is intentionally making it look silly on purpose... they are holding the button to roll over but letting go before it actaully does.

That' the problem with a lot of these fears and negative posts... they are based on little or no information or experience.

I suppose I could take the GC GT5 demo, smash a door till it flies open then drive carefully untit it lays closed again and looks normal. then I start recording the video, accelerate and watch the door fall back open and claim "Look crap GT5 damage! Doors pop open only from accelerating!".

Wouldn't be accurate would it? You need the whole story before judging...

 

[Organ-Donor]

That looks silly because someone is intentionally making it look silly on purpose... they are holding the button to roll over but letting go before it actaully does.

That' the problem with a lot of these fears and negative posts... they are based on little or no information or experience.

I suppose I could take the GC GT5 demo, smash a door till it flies open then drive carefully untit it lays closed again and looks normal. then I start recording the video, accelerate and watch the door fall back open and claim "Look crap GT5 damage! Doors pop open only from accelerating!".

Wouldn't be accurate would it? You need the whole story before judging...

Point is, manually rolling your car back over on your own makes it look silly. Maybe if you are upside down press start to "reset car" on the track kinda like Grid.