NFS Shift 2 Unleashed - Details

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Do you want the games to simulate a helmet cam or human vision?
I'm not Luminis, to whom that question was directly addressed, but I'll be as bold as to offer my own answer to it. I want a simulation of human vision, which means getting a visual impression that takes in the cues but doesn't produce a too jumbled perception of the view. Ref. my posting above.

DJ
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All shift does is overcook the effects making itself look like like a penny arcade racer. Hopefully they have a setting to tone down the effects so it would look a bit more mature.
I'd agree that the crash-effect is overcooked (a little shaking or a blur would've been better), but I don't think the headshake is contributing to the 'over the top' feeling. Actually, I think most games are a bit too, you know, sterile in this regard.

Like the guy above said we need options! :)
Agreed.

Do you want the games to simulate a helmet cam or human vision?
Problem is, human vision is subjective. I know that my experience when driving fast cars is pretty rough and shaky (even in rather comfortable cars), so I'm pretty fine with what they're doing. It matches pretty well with how I perceived a remotely comparable situation. I can see where it's coming from and I can make a case for it not being unrealistic. That's basically all there is to it. I made the same case for GT5's head shaking when people where claiming that it's unrealistic because your eyes would compensate for any shaking of the head anyways and I'm doing the same for Shift.

And as long as you can't create a simulation that actually shakes you and the screen and your playseat like all of it would be shaken in a real car, developers will have to try and compensate for it.
 
This thread has gone to hell with the constant comparisons with GT5 that some continue to regard as the be-all, end-all "driving simulator/realistic racing game"! :lol:

Get over it! GT5 is a decent simulator (but not great and more a rough approximation than physical simulation) and an awful racing game!

If you think that the sense of speed, cockpit movement, AI, race experience in GT5 is fun and realistic then there is absolutely no way you will like Shift 2! You are just wasting your time posting on a thread about an unreleased game there is not a chance you will like! And after Shift 2 is released you will come here to whine about "Shift 2 is arc4d3, I must constantly micro-correct the car in the turns, the sense of speed is way to extreme, the windshield gets dirty, the AI is aggressive and they hit me back when I hit them, and when I hit them I lose control of the car and end on the gravel trap, I can't pass them on the straights, there is not enough drafting force, the AI is very fast - they must be ch34ting!! GT5 is more r3a1istic!!"

And you would be wrong! Motor-racing is extreme, it's mad, it's crazy, it pushes cars and drivers to their limits and beyond! Motor-racing is not a quiet sunday drive in a perfect CGI world where the car is not even getting dirty! Shift 1 already provides a much more believable, realistic, accurate and fun portrayal of racing than GT5 ever will! Shift 2 most probably will build on that and provide even better driving and racing mechanics. It won't be perfect since it will lack qualifying, pit-stops, weather but I prefer to have a game that is fun and provides quality features than a "jack of all trades, master of none" no-fun game like GT5!
 
I prefer the helmet cam over the human vision with a game. If they were to simulate human vision while racing in a game it would be horrible. Why? I guess you have never had a helmet on with a 5 point and crammed inside a caged car, its not the easiest thing to see everything perfectly in that, and if they did that in a game you would be lost on the track and end up just wrecking allot, that doesn't sound like fun to me at all.
 
I prefer the helmet cam over the human vision with a game. If they were to simulate human vision while racing in a game it would be horrible. Why? I guess you have never had a helmet on with a 5 point and crammed inside a caged car, its not the easiest thing to see everything perfectly in that, and if they did that in a game you would be lost on the track and end up just wrecking allot, that doesn't sound like fun to me at all.

Agreed, it could only work out if they made some sort of head tracking device that enabled you to look around without looking away from the screen.
A real helmet with some sort of monitor instead of a visor would do the trick, along with a camera to track your movements and adjust your FoV ingame in real time...

Not something that could be done with what developers have at their disposal right now.
 
Yep, you see how he gets jerked around? Exactly. I have several gigs worth a shifter kart races on my old HD from the helmet cam I setup when I was racing, of course the view is wide open on a shifter kart though. On certain straights I would get up to 130, but on the video it looks like I'm going way over that because how close you are to the ground.
 
That's a really nice video! :)

Unfortunately it won't stop the moaning about the "unr3a1istic arc4d3" helmet cam!

Just like with the "wide tracks fiasco" the evidence provided which proved that the track width is accurate (or not as wide as they were making it to be) the moaning continued...
 
Destinkeys
No, it can't. Because S2U is a RACING game, and Grind Turismo is a 'driving' game, with all racing elements pretty much absent. You spend all your time offline trying to handicap yourself so that you don't beat the AI by TOO many laps. That's not racing. That's hotlapping through a field of slower cars.

BTW, if I find a video of some idiot sliding around in GT5, does that prove once and for all what an arcade game it is? :crazy:

Sauce for the goose, my skeptical friend...

The true racing element of gt5 is experienced online. Offline is a joke.
 
That's a really nice video! :)

Unfortunately it won't stop the moaning about the "unr3a1istic arc4d3" helmet cam!

Just like with the "wide tracks fiasco" the evidence provided which proved that the track width is accurate (or not as wide as they were making it to be) the moaning continued...

It's not Gran Turismo, so it can't be realistic, it can't be good. It's not made by PD, so it has to be garbage.

:sly:
 
First of all, a comment about the instrument and mirror blur...

If you are racing at 130+mph, you are an IDIOT if you are looking at anything BUT the track. Sure, in a video game, there are no tragic consequences if you do, but IRL, in a twisty course, with cars all around you, you don't look at your instrument cluster AT ALL. The blurring, as far as I am concerned, replicates the out of focus effect you get IRL if you keep your eyes focused on the road in front of you and you are picking up the cluster in your peripheral vision. Looked at that way, it becomes VERY accurate.

Mirror blur is obvious. Even your POS sedan, in race conditions at race speeds, will be vibration blurred. You seem to forget that the vast majority of race courses are not paved buttery smooth like an autobahn.

Head shake and body movement? To a large degree, that's simply a sliding scale. With immobility and unreality at one end, and flopping around like you would without a four point harness cinched up TIGHT, and a standard over the shoulder seatbelt at the other. But, IMO, the goal of a racing GAME is immersion. Until we can all afford five display 3D cockpits with motor actuated seats (like fighter pilot training cockpits in the military), some aspect of the physical experience of racing a car is going to be missing.

At this point, you have to ask yourself how you get it back..? Do you exaggerate the physical effects, to trick the brain into feeling something not there, or do you ignore it, and let the brain just do without? Personally, I am at the more visceral end of the sliding scale, but don't ANYONE assume that any particular solution is realistic. At least not until you have that $1M fully motorized NASA simulator! So, let's dial back the rhetoric a bit, eh?

For me, although cockpit views are cool, I still believe that without a 3-5 monitor setup (fat chance on my salary!) they are unrealistically restrictive. I am disappointed I have seen virtually NO full replays in Shift's REAL 'Hood Cam', which was my preferred view in Shift 1. It completely DESTROYS GT5's version (that everyone misnames 'bumper-cam') as it shows the hood, but uses the whole width of your TV as the virtual windshield. The most efficient use of your TV's real estate, without losing where the corners of your car are. And you still get a decent amount of immersion, as the hood 'shakes' and vibrates around, unlike GT5's 'invisible car' cam which, AFAIK, simulates absolutely NOTHING from real life.

As to the sounds, once again, a sliding scale. And, once again, I would prefer the overly exciting to the under exciting. GT5's car sounds are, with a few notable (but rare) exceptions, too tame and mild. The FIRST thing you do to any racing car is strip out all the sound insulation, seats, padding, any pound you can find. This makes them INCREDIBLY noisy inside. Bright, not dull. This is what might fool a GT5 fan that things are exaggerated. I guess, if you are using earplugs, you take them out and suddenly everything sounds exaggerated. But it isn't. It's just you, finally finding out what things REALLY sound like.

Personally, if I want the experience of racing with earplugs in and a helmet on, I'd rather start with the real sound, and PUT earplugs in, than not need them but NEVER get the real true snarl.

I had the great pleasure of standing right next to the Jaguar XK13 at Sebring last year when it got started up and driven off. I nearly jumped out of my skin, and I DID have my earplugs in! I'm truly sorry, GT5 fans, but you have been robbed! And many of you don't even know it.

I don't CARE if it's a bit exaggerated, I would rather have THAT experience in a game, than the muffled, loopy (can't remember hearing a single loop in Shift), phase-y (ditto), milquetoast 'experience' you are so proud to 'defend'.
 
Just watched the video. This game looks impressive so I will definitely be picking it up. Couple of questions though:

I didn't play Shift so if people who did could answer that would be great.

How are the customization options in this series(as far as vehicles and tracks are concerned)?

I read that if you pre-order you get the limited edition but I haven't seen any other editions. Is there only one edition of the game? I would like to rent it prior to purchasing it, so I might not pre-order the game. So if I wait to purchase it after it is out will I still be able to purchase the "limited edition?"
 
Problem is, human vision is subjective.

I prefer the helmet cam over the human vision with a game. If they were to simulate human vision while racing in a game it would be horrible. Why? I guess you have never had a helmet on with a 5 point and crammed inside a caged car, its not the easiest thing to see everything perfectly in that, and if they did that in a game you would be lost on the track and end up just wrecking allot, that doesn't sound like fun to me at all.

I think perhaps we lack a definition of "human vision" in this context. My take on it is what you perceive from the drivers seat, with full cognitive compensation. You have (at least some) control over your head movement and your focus, and the visual input is undergoing very powerful processing by your brain, taking the input from all sensory organs into account.

So the point for me must the be to make the visuals convincing, giving the necessary cues. Not necessarily physically correct in the sense that the visuals are streamed from from an actual camera mounted in the opening of a helmet ("helmet cam"?) and then projected on a screen with no opportunity for the related input, such as G-forces on your body and inner ear, to be conveyed to and processed by the player. The latter would not give a realistic impression.

BTW, none of the "helmet cam" videos I've seen seem to have as extreme forward movement under braking. I also don't think that some other drivers "whimsical" head movements are representative of how you would perceive the visuals, i.e. it can become exaggregated and disconnected from what you would experience if you were in the seat with the ability to compensate as described above. Also, if a helmet cam actually is a camera mounted on top of a helmet, the radius from the neck joint to the lens is greater than that from the neck joint to the eyes, which results in an too large movement to convey what the driver actually see.

A simple experiment to clarify what I'm talking about: focus on an object on front of you. Then proceed to shake your head quite violently. The object you focus on will not appear to dance around uncontrollably; instead it will appear to be quite steady.

Anyway, we all seem to agree that these effects needs some adjustability - let's hope that SMS also agrees 👍

DJ
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A simple experiment to clarify what I'm talking about: focus on an object on front of you. Then proceed to shake your head quite violently. The object you focus on will not appear to dance around uncontrollably; instead it will appear to be quite steady.

It doesn't stay totally still, either. and there's always the difference between a motion you intend and cause yourself and one that comes from an outward source that your body and brain can't prepare for, so to speak.
 
It's not Gran Turismo, so it can't be realistic, it can't be good. It's not made by PD, so it has to be garbage.

:sly:

Looking at this thread, it's mostly you guys that say this. It's GT5, so it has to be crap. Please don't mistake criticism for fanboyism. And most of the people that criticise here don't even mention GT5.
I have to say that GT5 is far from perfect, but it isn't crap either.
 
A simple experiment to clarify what I'm talking about: focus on an object on front of you. Then proceed to shake your head quite violently. The object you focus on will not appear to dance around uncontrollably; instead it will appear to be quite steady.
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Exactly, this is where "less is more" will work perfectly.
 
It doesn't stay totally still, either. and there's always the difference between a motion you intend and cause yourself and one that comes from an outward source that your body and brain can't prepare for, so to speak.
No, not totally still of course, but quite steady. Certainly nothing like a stiffly mounted camera on a moving head. An outside source of movement will also be detected and compensated for to a high degree. Not perfectly, but enough that there's not a "stiffly mounted camera" effect. BTW, I forgot to mention the obvious fact and important part of the equation, that your eyes automatically move in their sockets too to keep things steady when you focus on them.

DJ
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No, not totally still of course, but quite steady. Certainly nothing like a stiffly mounted camera on a moving head. An outside source of movement will also be detected and compensated for to a high degree. Not perfectly, but enough that there's not a "stiffly mounted camera" effect. BTW, I forgot to mention the obvious fact and important part of the equation, that your eyes automatically move in their sockets too to keep things steady when you focus on them.

DJ
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The eyes will of course compensate for movements caused by outwards as well, they just don't do it as well compaared to movements caused by yourself, at least from my experience.
Personally, I guess that the rate at which the eyes adapt to such a situation and the level of movement they can compensate for varies from person to person, as well as the ability to keep focus while having to deal with an unstable view.

That's what I meant when I said that human vision is too subjective to be simulated perfectly ;)

Looking at this thread, it's mostly you guys that say this. It's GT5, so it has to be crap. Please don't mistake criticism for fanboyism. And most of the people that criticise here don't even mention GT5.
I have to say that GT5 is far from perfect, but it isn't crap either.
GT5 has the physics and the looks, so it obviously isn't crap as a whole package.

Anyways, looking at this thread I can't help but think that there's quite a few people who seem heavily biased against Shift 2, for whatever reason there may be.
Granted, it was assumption that one of those reasons might be GT fanboyism, but I don't think it's very far fetched, is it?
 
I think the real difference between simulating helmet cam and human vision is that from helmet cam, everything shakes and is affected the same, where in vision cam the horizon/outside should stay quite steady while the cockpit/helmet shake all over the place.

It looks to be the latter that Shift simulates, which I like. From playing GT5 it seemed they simulate the former, which IMO is why some people have problems playing from that view when the track/horizon is jiggling around...
 
I think the real difference between simulating helmet cam and human vision is that from helmet cam, everything shakes and is affected the same, where in vision cam the horizon/outside should stay quite steady while the cockpit/helmet shake all over the place.

It looks to be the latter that Shift simulates, which I like. From playing GT5 it seemed they simulate the former, which IMO is why some people have problems playing from that view when the track/horizon is jiggling around...

I never actually noticed that... I might have to look at a few videos in the next few days and keep an eye out for that difference.
 
A simple experiment to clarify what I'm talking about: focus on an object on front of you. Then proceed to shake your head quite violently. The object you focus on will not appear to dance around uncontrollably; instead it will appear to be quite steady.

Anyway, we all seem to agree that these effects needs some adjustability - let's hope that SMS also agrees 👍

DJ
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I am afraid I HAVE to call you out on this one. It is patently absurd and provably wrong. (I do however agree with that last sentence).

Anyway, here goes. You are sitting in front of your computer, right now. (don't do this on a cell-phone!). I am about to write a paragraph, further down the page. Don't look at it. Start shaking your head pretty violently (remember, many cars don't have a full HANS system, and those that do still have quite a bit of head jostle). Even better is to get someone ELSE to shake your head around... Now, scroll down (finger on the Page Down button? Good!) and try to read what I have written, just for a few seconds. Then stop shaking, and see if you got it right.
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If you are reading this, objects in the mirror may be too close, and Jerk and Jail go up the hail to fatch a pale of warter, The quack bronze fox jumped over the lady dog, and jim came tumbling behound her. A panty saved is a penny punched. Grind Turisno is the bent racing gane EVER...
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Stop shaking your head now!


Now, tell me how many of those spelling mistakes you caught? Or could you read it at all? You are a better man than me, Gunga Din, if you caught them all (if any!).
 
I must be really stupid to have tryed it but the fact is I couldnt read at all because it all slightly blured out and started to dance around uncontrollably (well slightly at least - it really didnt seem to be quite steady)...

... maybe I should see doctor or maybe I shaked my head too much and too violently...

EDIT: I overdid it a bit yes - it was a bit out of context - its not like its a rally game or something like that... but maybe thats the all point of SMS to exaggerate the experience a bit...
 
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I am afraid I HAVE to call you out on this one. It is patently absurd and provably wrong. (I do however agree with that last sentence).

Anyway, here goes. You are sitting in front of your computer, right now. (don't do this on a cell-phone!). I am about to write a paragraph, further down the page. Don't look at it. Start shaking your head pretty violently (remember, many cars don't have a full HANS system, and those that do still have quite a bit of head jostle). Even better is to get someone ELSE to shake your head around... Now, scroll down (finger on the Page Down button? Good!) and try to read what I have written, just for a few seconds. Then stop shaking, and see if you got it right.
You're completely missing the point, to a patently absurd degree even ;)

Your proposed experiment is a completely different one, and of little relevance to what I was talking about.

...it really didnt seem to be quite steady
Try the experiment I proposed instead.
...it was a bit out of context
I dare say :lol:

DJ
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I did... Can't believe you haven't. I shake my head violently. EVERYTHING moves. Near more than far, but everything moves.

Are you just TURNING your head? I'm talking about shaking it. Violently.

And how is my experiment wrong..? You state, definitively, that when you shake your head, nothing moves. You should have been able to read the text if you are right. Obviously, you couldn't.

The object you focus on will not appear to dance around uncontrollably; instead it will appear to be quite steady.

I rest my case.
 
I am afraid I HAVE to call you out on this one. It is patently absurd and provably wrong. (I do however agree with that last sentence).
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Now, tell me how many of those spelling mistakes you caught? Or could you read it at all? You are a better man than me, Gunga Din, if you caught them all (if any!).

Reading puts a different task on the brain, it is no longer about just vision with your experiment.

Back to shift, simulating a helmet cam instead of focusing on the actual vision. The brain compensates quite a bit for the shaking thus we won't notice the shaking as much as compared to a helmet cam video, where everything shakes. I think they should focus on driver's experience instead of forcing folks to experience how a helmet cam feels.
 
And how is my experiment wrong..?
I didn't say it was wrong. I said it was a completely different one, scrolling a text past your eyes, which is of little relevance to what I was talking about.

You state, definitively, that when you shake your head, nothing moves.
No, I did not. I said that when you focus on an object and shake your head, the object appears quite stable as a function of your brain and eyes compensating for the movement. Please read the relevant posting again, and you will see. I suggest that we leave the issue. Others can read and reason for themselves.

DJ
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I think perhaps we lack a definition of "human vision" in this context. My take on it is what you perceive from the drivers seat, with full cognitive compensation. You have (at least some) control over your head movement and your focus, and the visual input is undergoing very powerful processing by your brain, taking the input from all sensory organs into account.

So the point for me must the be to make the visuals convincing, giving the necessary cues. Not necessarily physically correct in the sense that the visuals are streamed from from an actual camera mounted in the opening of a helmet ("helmet cam"?) and then projected on a screen with no opportunity for the related input, such as G-forces on your body and inner ear, to be conveyed to and processed by the player. The latter would not give a realistic impression.

BTW, none of the "helmet cam" videos I've seen seem to have as extreme forward movement under braking. I also don't think that some other drivers "whimsical" head movements are representative of how you would perceive the visuals, i.e. it can become exaggregated and disconnected from what you would experience if you were in the seat with the ability to compensate as described above. Also, if a helmet cam actually is a camera mounted on top of a helmet, the radius from the neck joint to the lens is greater than that from the neck joint to the eyes, which results in an too large movement to convey what the driver actually see.

A simple experiment to clarify what I'm talking about: focus on an object on front of you. Then proceed to shake your head quite violently. The object you focus on will not appear to dance around uncontrollably; instead it will appear to be quite steady.

Anyway, we all seem to agree that these effects needs some adjustability - let's hope that SMS also agrees 👍

DJ
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All I was trying to say was yes your head does move a good amount when racing really because some people had the idea that you are frankenstein behind the wheel. I raced for almost 7 years (7 in a kart that will go 0-100 and back to zero in a hair over 6 seconds, and many, many years at the drag strip) and you do bounce around. I know they have exaggerated this in Shift 2, I can clearly see that. But, I think why they have is because you can't feel in G forces, you can't feel the car, you don't have any of that going on because its just a game. So, they did the best they could to give it a feeling, they want the screen moving and they want it exciting. Most people are just trying to dig too deep into the game, if you just step back and look at what we are given to look at about the game you will see that it looks pretty solid so far. All of the huge nitpicking just doesn't make sense to me seeing that IMO this racing game is the best to come out so far in the genre, hopefully when I get my copy it will play as well as it looks though. The technology will only let them do so much, I would much rather have a solid playability as far as response controls and physics and such then to give up some of that allotted memory space on the disk so debris can stay on the track the entire race and not vanish(to save memory) or tire skids to stay the entire race etc. That's of course just how I feel about it. I can only imagine the games my grand kids will be playing seeing how far games have become since I got the NES the day it came out!
 
The head movement in S2U looks like they have a broken seat slider. That's amazing realism except for the part where every car has a broken seat slider, and i do not think race cars would have sliders in them. :)

Every time they break they get closer to the windshield. When they accelerate they go backwards, good thing they are holding to the steering wheel.
:P 👍

Maybe it's possible to switch off the head movement ingame. All Simbin games have this feature and you can switch it off or not.

Same with the look to the apex and the annoying and unrealistic blur effect of the dashboard. There should be an on/off switch ingame for those whom don't like it or in fact do like it.

Everybody is pleased if SMS installs an on/off switch for most of the features.
 
Maybe I didn't understand you, but when I see the words 'Everything remains steady' I tend to take that as written.

I am shaking my head right now. Not a SINGLE thing that I am looking at remains 'steady'. Not near, not far. Everything is moving. Sure, my brain can make sense of it, but it is moving up. down, sideways.

Could you try to give a better description of what you think YOU are seeing..?

"Remaining steady" may not be what you experience. If it is, kudos. Now tell me what was in that paragraph. Because, when text 'remains steady' I can read it.
 
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