Non-linear throttle

[barkohba]

I don't know how much this helps to show how easy I find it to modulate the throttle, and how progressive it feels (to me) in my T-GT setup, but here is a video of one of my (older) online races in the Gr 2 NSX (weak abs, no TC) at Dragon Trail. Check the throttle input indicator on slow corners and also at he same time check the RPM counter and you'll see that it's really smooth and I can easily modulate it - no spikes, abnormal behavior.

I'll try to get a 2 cam setup to film my throttle pedal at the same time and show that in the future as well.

 

[Griffith500]

I don't see you modulating the throttle in the last 25% of travel there - that's the problematic part. You typically wait at 50% to 75% then go full throttle. Only a handful of times does it stop in between, never for long and not consistently - it sometimes results in a loss of control.

It's fine that you have learned to drive around it, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be better fixed. It also tells me you don't really know what your inputs are in the first place, or indeed that you are in fact driving around an input issue.

 

[barkohba]

I don't see you modulating the throttle in the last 25% of travel there - that's the problematic part. You typically wait at 50% to 75% then go full throttle. Only a handful of times does it stop in between, never for long and not consistently - it sometimes results in a loss of control.

It's fine that you have learned to drive around it, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be better fixed. It also tells me you don't really know what your inputs are in the first place, or indeed that you are in fact driving around an input issue.

You seem to know what I do better than what I was doing ). I don't modulate for the last 25%. Not in GTS, not in PC2 nor AC. I medium corners i stay between 60-70%, and slam it (sometimes faster, sometimes slower) to 100% when I go out. In all 3 games, whenever my back end slides, depending on how I feel the weight of the car (and, incidentally, what car I am using, heavy vs light) I either lift off for a brief moment or not at all, and do a fast counter steer.

So, again, if THAT last 25% "modulation" is indeed the concern brought up by the OP (which I doubt), then it's a non issue - same thing is present in PC2 and AC.

 

[barkohba]

I don't see you modulating the throttle in the last 25% of travel there - that's the problematic part. You typically wait at 50% to 75% then go full throttle. Only a handful of times does it stop in between, never for long and not consistently - it sometimes results in a loss of control.

It's fine that you have learned to drive around it, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be better fixed. It also tells me you don't really know what your inputs are in the first place, or indeed that you are in fact driving around an input issue.

In case, for some boarderline trolling reason you still doubt that the last 30-20% of the throttle pedal modulation (at least on the T3PGT) is somewhat bugged/nonexistent/nonlinear in GTS, as soon as I get a buddy with his phone at my place, I'll do a special-dedication parallel video, showing what happens in the game and what happens with my foot on the peddal as I progressively press it at varying speeds, on a few different group-cars.

 

[barkohba]

It's fine that you have learned to drive around it, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be better fixed. It also tells me you don't really know what your inputs are in the first place, or indeed that you are in fact driving around an input issue.

Scratch my last reply. It's pretty obvious you're nothing but a troll since you're implying crap like this and assuming you basically know better than I do what I'm doing with my foot when I'm playing GTS. I'm not here for feeding trolls like yourself, just to provide some input from my experience that might help or offer more info to other colleagues on this forum. So kindly move on.

 

[Krypton78]

@barkhoba
mate, they are not saying its not possible to modulate and get used to it. If it wouldnt be possible, how would the aliens be aliens? And I fully agree to you that its easier with T-GT then with the G29 from my personal experience.

But it is the common oppinion in this thread that it shouldn't be that way in the first place. As I checked a few days ago myself, you have 50% throttle on the game-bar when you press 80% travel way on the pedal. So the second 50% of the game-throttle is compressed int the last 20% travel way of the pedal.

I admit, I did not play another race game then GTS, only the former parts with controller pad. But I think also, that a linear behaviour should be better controlled in a regulation system.

What I wonder is, maybe its perhaps some kind of linear anyway? Maybe the relation of the game-throttle-bar to the given power to the engine is unlinear the other direction, so that both unlinearities compensate themselfes. Because, there must be a reason why PD did it. I don't think they are to stupid to read a simple potentiometer input correctly

 

[cjr3559]

Because, there must be a reason why PD did it.

My thoughts are it’s to keep wheel/pedal users from having an edge over controller users.

 

[KepleroGT]

This is probably a double-post but I searched and simply can't find the original.

As this video clearly shows, the accelerator pedal is not linear:


For me, this makes particularly difficult in long high-speed corners and ovals where precise control of the accelerator is required.
It also occurs to me that this non-linear behaviour might have saved me from modding my G29 brake pedal (changed hard rubber stopper with softer one) if this non-linear behaviour were on the brakes instead of the throttle. Could it be an implementation bug where this should be on the brakes instead?

Now imagine it on a DS4.
Just that. Imagine it.
If you were me you would start screaming after 20 minutes. It's impossible to race in Sport Mode with no traction because the stock setup is slippery, and if you are careful with the throttle you lose time.

 

[KepleroGT]

The issue itself aside for a moment, I have to say, well done on creating a thread that's clear and concise and includes easy to understand descriptive video:tup:👍

Has it been confirmed whether or not other types of pedals fall prey to this obvious shortcoming in PD's pedal algorithm? I can't see it being accidental as you'd have to design code to get around a pedal's inherent linear response. Perhaps it's their way of attempting to equalize wheels and controllers on the track. Has anyone experimented with DS4 triggers and sticks to see if the problem is universal?

On a DS4 it's even worse. You have a deadzone at both ends, so your range of precision with the throttle is reduced. When you press the trigger at 80% the throttle is already at 100%.

 

[Greycap]

Purely theorizing here, but real engines usually don't make 50% power at 50% throttle opening and 50% pedal travel. It's more like 75% power at 50% input. This could be a really crooked way of trying to fix that and failing in the process.

 

[barkohba]

@barkhoba
mate, they are not saying its not possible to modulate and get used to it. If it wouldnt be possible, how would the aliens be aliens? And I fully agree to you that its easier with T-GT then with the G29 from my personal experience.

But it is the common oppinion in this thread that it shouldn't be that way in the first place. As I checked a few days ago myself, you have 50% throttle on the game-bar when you press 80% travel way on the pedal. So the second 50% of the game-throttle is compressed int the last 20% travel way of the pedal.

I admit, I did not play another race game then GTS, only the former parts with controller pad. But I think also, that a linear behaviour should be better controlled in a regulation system.

What I wonder is, maybe its perhaps some kind of linear anyway? Maybe the relation of the game-throttle-bar to the given power to the engine is unlinear the other direction, so that both unlinearities compensate themselfes. Because, there must be a reason why PD did it. I don't think they are to stupid to read a simple potentiometer input correctly

I hear you. Well, in that case, I assume other sims like PCars 2 and AC do the same - out of curiosity I've run a lot of parallel almost-identical setup car/track timetrials on all 3 games ( i actually got AC just for comparison when it was on sale) and managed to get almost identical times and behavior with a ferrari f40 on Monza when comparing GTS and AC. And as far as I can recall at this moment (not at home to test right away), my inputs were pretty similar, I definitely did not have a moment while racing in AC thinking that I have to adjust the throttle input or anything.

While online, I did find the articles below. They describe how in other sims, like RaceRoom etc, and even real racing cars, the throttle mapping is always different and adjusted, with many using "Non-Linear - Pedal 1/3 way - Throttle 50%" setups, which pretty much matches the way the pedals are mapped in GTS - this would go hand in hand with what is presumably expereinced when actually measuring the pedal input. The last 1/3 is definitely prone to modulation, it's just progressive - in short, it;s not a bug, it's the way the game is set up, presumably real world GT3 cars might be modeled like that. This will also explain why having 50% throttle input mapped on the last 20% pedal travel would end up being more manageable when you're using higher resolution pedals.

https://www.racedepartment.com/threads/throttle-linearity-brake-linearity.117974/

http://rsmegane.com/threads/rs-monitor-throttle-settings.14856/

https://www.onlyrevo.com/blog/linear-throttle/

The RSMEGANE article is especially revealing - when putting the Megane RS in track/sport mode, the throttle is remapped to pretty much exactly what is experienced in GTS - non-linear progressive , check the graph below taken from the article:

 

[barkohba]

Purely theorizing here, but real engines usually don't make 50% power at 50% throttle opening and 50% pedal travel. It's more like 75% power at 50% input. This could be a really crooked way of trying to fix that and failing in the process.

Exactly, this is the info I found out minutes ago when researching. In the Megane RS, apparently, it's not linear as standard, and when putting it in Race mode, throttle response gets even more aggressive and non linear. I actually found out on an article at OnlyRevo that for more unexperienced race drivers/enthusiasts it is more desireable to have a 100% linear throttle mapping (50% pedal travel = 50% engine load), but in order to do that, professionals have to remap the engine/throttle, as it's never like that as a standard.

 

[Outspacer]

While online, I did find the articles below. They describe how in other sims, like RaceRoom etc, and even real racing cars, the throttle mapping is always different and adjusted, with many using "Non-Linear - Pedal 1/3 way - Throttle 50%" setups, which pretty much matches the way the pedals are mapped in GTS - this would go hand in hand with what is presumably expereinced when actually measuring the pedal input. The last 1/3 is definitely prone to modulation, it's just progressive - in short, it;s not a bug, it's the way the game is set up, presumably real world GT3 cars might be modeled like that.

That is the opposite to what GTS does! As in, "pedal 1/3 = 50% throttle" is moving the curve in the opposite direction to GTS's "pedal 80% = 50% throttle".

This was a graph I posted in a brake discussion. Ignore the left graph, the right hand graph is roughly what GTS does with the throttle:

 

[Bohemis09]

When my doctor said that I have psoriasis for life, my brain triggered a reaction covering my half body with this s h it. Now, that I read, for the first time, that gt sport doesn't have a linear throttle response I can't drive as before. I must see a doctor

 

[barkohba]

That is the opposite to what GTS does! As in, "pedal 1/3 = 50% throttle" is moving the curve in the opposite direction to GTS's "pedal 80% = 50% throttle".

This was a graph I posted in a brake discussion. Ignore the left graph, the right hand graph is roughly what GTS does with the throttle:

Indeed, my mistake. Did some more digging in the meantime, and it seems that the GTS throttle mapping is F1 style.

Check the image below.

The post states "
Legend for each column:

1. Soft pickup – driveability for low speed corner or wet conditions
2. Standard linear map
3. Smooth top end – for high speed corner"

Source: http://f1framework.blogspot.com/2013/03/f1-engine-maps_28.html

F1 cars, as some might know (if you follow the sport), have a ton of engine mapping setups. GTS seems to have the "Soft pickup" setup.

 

[Outspacer]

Indeed, my mistake. Did some more digging in the meantime, and it seems that the GTS throttle mapping is F1 style.

Check the image below.

The post states "
Legend for each column:

1. Soft pickup – driveability for low speed corner or wet conditions
2. Standard linear map
3. Smooth top end – for high speed corner"

Source: http://f1framework.blogspot.com/2013/03/f1-engine-maps_28.html

F1 cars, as some might know (if you follow the sport), have a ton of engine mapping setups. GTS seems to have the "Soft pickup" setup.

It isn't that either, kind of opposite in a different sense...
Soft pickup has a non-linear section at the beginning of throttle input and then goes linear over the majority of the travel up to the max.
GTS has its most non-linear section at the end of throttle input after being roughly linear over the majority of the travel from the min.

 

[CJ1045]

Looking at the charts the GTS one seems to be the third column - 60% throttle nearly 80% power.

 

[Greycap]

In a real car, at least the ones I've driven, the last 25% of the pedal travel does nearly nothing. The pedal at 75% gives probably 90% of the power, if not more. GTS might be trying to counter that by modifying the pedal curve so that when the pedal is at that 75% point the throttle is only 50% open, yet giving roughly 75% of the power because that's what engines tendo to do - give a higher percentage of power compared to the amount of the throttle opening. We don't know if the throttle bar is supposed to show the amount of air going into the engine (ie. the amount of power being produced) or the actual throttle opening but if it's the latter, the actual power delivery would be quite linear compared to the pedal position.

Or then it's just all messed up. I don't know, I'm just throwing these theories around.

 

[Venster]

Plus none of those charts show 75% throttle position to 50% output like GTS has. First one is roughly 40/50 the other two are 50/50. It’s only the mapping either side of 50% that they seem to change. To me 50% travel should equal 50% output.

 

[Brzlav]

On my T150 with T3PA Pedals, 50% throttle are reached at maybe even more than 75% travel end there is a deadzone at the end of the travel. So, going from 50% throttle to 100% feels like pushing a button. I think it's even worse than what people are describing here.

 

[Outspacer]

Looking at the charts the GTS one seems to be the third column - 60% throttle nearly 80% power.

In a real car, at least the ones I've driven, the last 25% of the pedal travel does nearly nothing. The pedal at 75% gives probably 90% of the power, if not more. GTS might be trying to counter that by modifying the pedal curve so that when the pedal is at that 75% point the throttle is only 50% open, yet giving roughly 75% of the power because that's what engines tendo to do - give a higher percentage of power compared to the amount of the throttle opening. We don't know if the throttle bar is supposed to show the amount of air going into the engine (ie. the amount of power being produced) or the actual throttle opening but if it's the latter, the actual power delivery would be quite linear compared to the pedal position.

Or then it's just all messed up. I don't know, I'm just throwing these theories around.

Well, indeed we have to be careful comparing these graphs because they aren't the same measure. The F1 graphs show 'normalised torque', the Megane graph was 'Engine load', and GTS is just a bar of pixels on the screen

What is not in doubt is that whatever GTS does makes the cars harder to drive. This thread started because people found an issue with driving, not as a response to the graphic on the screen. In other words, the power delivery ends up non-linear (in a bad way) and the on-screen graphic seems to reflect how it drives.

Re. throttle opening vs power, I can't think of a good explanation for why GTS would do something to deliberately counter how a real car behaves. Real cars are quite controllable... the downside of any non-linearity is most noticed when trying to maintain a steady low speed like 15 or 20 mph, hardly relevant to a racing game. The upside is more controllability at higher speeds, which is.

 

[Griffith500]

It should be linear, simple as. In many engines what happens is a linearisation (at high rpm at least) of the torque delivered vs. that "requested", at least as far as drive by wire throttles are concerned. As others, and I, have already noted the loss of precision of a perfectly linear throttle at small throttle openings is not really an issue in a race / track situation.

 

[OutlawQuadrnt]

Well, indeed we have to be careful comparing these graphs because they aren't the same measure. The F1 graphs show 'normalised torque', the Megane graph was 'Engine load', and GTS is just a bar of pixels on the screen

What is not in doubt is that whatever GTS does makes the cars harder to drive. This thread started because people found an issue with driving, not as a response to the graphic on the screen. In other words, the power delivery ends up non-linear (in a bad way) and the on-screen graphic seems to reflect how it drives.

Re. throttle opening vs power, I can't think of a good explanation for why GTS would do something to deliberately counter how a real car behaves. Real cars are quite controllable... the downside of any non-linearity is most noticed when trying to maintain a steady low speed like 15 or 20 mph, hardly relevant to a racing game. The upside is more controllability at higher speeds, which is.

I'm all but convinced at this point that the reason for this mapping is the same reason why manufacturers do it on certain cars. It makes the car much harder to spin by requiring more pedal travel for better acceleration. In other words, if you're using the pedal believing it's linear, you're not really accelerating that much until you've straightened up the wheel.

 

[golfer07840]

My thoughts are it’s to keep wheel/pedal users from having an edge over controller users.

But, in reality, don't wheel/pedal users have an advantage over controller users?

 

[ARTAsean]

But, in reality, don't wheel/pedal users have an advantage over controller users?

Well, the biggest advantage that a wheel has *is* throttle control, and PD has drastically reduced that advantage. So no, not really.

 

[OutlawQuadrnt]

But, in reality, don't wheel/pedal users have an advantage over controller users?

I see a wheel and pedals as more precise tools than a controller. There are a few alien controller users out there but I remember a few that made the switch and all of them have said they wouldn't go back.

 

[golfer07840]

I see a wheel and pedals as more precise tools than a controller. There are a few alien controller users out there but I remember a few that made the switch and all of them have said they wouldn't go back.

Alien Controllers? I've heard of Alien computers...but not controllers.

 

[Macboyilija]

A lot of aliens use controllers so that argument is already lost there. Almost no one in this world can be as quick with a wheel after using a controller. They need hours of driving time getting that close. Eventually you can be faster with a wheel. That said, with a wheel going back to controller is pretty easy.

Not that it matters though. A wheel is a lot more fun to many !

 

[andrewhake]

That is the opposite to what GTS does! As in, "pedal 1/3 = 50% throttle" is moving the curve in the opposite direction to GTS's "pedal 80% = 50% throttle".

This was a graph I posted in a brake discussion. Ignore the left graph, the right hand graph is roughly what GTS does with the throttle:

This graph isn't accurate at all..

 

[phil_75]

On gr2 they seem to have made the turbo kick in just as the DS4 trigger spring goes in and out of resistance making it extremely hard to modulate on slow corners.