North Korea, Sanctions, and Kim Jong-un

[Liquid]

It's hard to ignore the fact that North Korea is a country which willingly starves, neglects and ignores its own people yet provokes the countries who step in with international aid.

I'm someone who abhors war (don't most people?) and abusive violence but I find it very hard to balance that with the knowledge that getting rid of the military dictatorship won't happen democratically. I just cannot see North Korea holding their hands up and admitting that the game is over. Not whilst international aid is propping up their people. The removal of aid and complete isolation of North Korea might be the only thing which will bring them to the table but it would come at a very severe human cost.

But them international military intervention almost certainly would lead to a different war and another severe human cost.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

How do you solve a problem like Korea? Alone, apparently.

That's how Walker Texas Ranger would do it.

 

[Imari]

My prerogative - the answer is no, I'll speak about DPRK in whatever terms I choose.

Fair enough, it was simply a suggestion. I don't see the point in being intentionally antagonistic in a respectful conversation, but obviously you do so I'll leave that to you.

Anyway, maybe it's best to stick to discussing the points I've raised rather than suggesting that I should keep my opinions to myself.

The irony being you chose two passages that were not related to the points out of a really quite large post that I made that discussed a number of them. How about you take your own advice?

I haven't suggested that you keep your opinions to yourself, merely that you might be better voicing them in a less obviously biased and inflammatory way if you wanted to have a real discussion. You disagree. That's fine. Let's continue and see how far we get. But you'll notice that actually I responded by discussing a large number of the points that you raised, you simply chose not to see. If you want to talk, the post is still right there.

Ah, so something the US did in the 50s justifies why we need to allow the North Korean governent to have an international presence free of trigger words to make them feel bad in 2017?

Jesus Christ, where did I say that? Come on, man. You're better than that. Don't play prisonermonkeys game of making up flamebait.

I'm suggesting that NK didn't get where it is entirely of it's own volition, it's the responsibility of the foreign policy of a number of parties, including the US. I'm suggesting that we've seen what the overtly militaristic interventionist style does to countries like NK. It turns them into a war zone, whether that be civil war or outright war as third parties see an opportunity for territory gain when the current government crashes. I'm suggesting that the parties responsible, namely the US and Russia (as the generic inheritor of the mantle of the USSR), might want to cut NK a little slack based on the fact that the prison that NK finds itself in is one that was intentionally created after the Korean war.

The NK government is, as far as I can tell, a horrible, horrible regime. But it's where it is, in part, due to the US. It needs to be replaced, but it needs to be replaced in a way that doesn't kill thousands of Koreans, Americans, and risk starting WW3. I don't see how that is even particularly outrageous. Is not wanting to start a war an SJW opinion now or something?

I think you'll find that good military commanders are highly loathe to get into combat. It is a last resort. They want to protect the lives of their troops, and the best way to do that is by not fighting at all. It may feel less exciting to work through diplomacy, but it tends to be cheaper both in lives and materiel than a good old fashioned war. It doesn't take much to add up to a few billion dollars of military hardware spent in a conflict.

 

[Dotini]

A few short more days of diplomatic jibber-jabber, and then the bombs will do fall.

“The clock has now run out, and all options are on the table for us,” the official told reporters at a briefing held on condition that he not be identified by name.

Hours after those remarks were reported, North Korea fired a ballistic missile into the waters off its east coast, according to South Korean officials.

Trump will host Xi late this week at his Mar-a-Lago private club in Florida, their first face-to-face talks since the November election. The American president is expected to raise longstanding concerns about what the new administration angrily describes as an unfair bilateral trade relationship and about what is seen in the West Wing as Beijing’s stubborn refusal to do more to contain North Korea’s belligerent behavior.

“It is now urgent, because we feel that the clock is very, very quickly running out,” the official told reporters. “We would have loved to see North Korea join the community of nations. They’ve been given that opportunity over the course of different dialogues and offers over the course of four administrations, with some of our best diplomats and statesmen doing the best they could to bring about a resolution.”

https://www.yahoo.com/news/ahead-of...s-clock-has-run-out-on-n-korea-215417128.html

 

[BobK]

Is there a connection between this:

A few short more days of diplomatic jibber-jabber, and then the bombs will do fall.

“The clock has now run out, and all options are on the table for us,” the official told reporters at a briefing held on condition that he not be identified by name.

Hours after those remarks were reported, North Korea fired a ballistic missile into the waters off its east coast, according to South Korean officials.

Trump will host Xi late this week at his Mar-a-Lago private club in Florida, their first face-to-face talks since the November election. The American president is expected to raise longstanding concerns about what the new administration angrily describes as an unfair bilateral trade relationship and about what is seen in the West Wing as Beijing’s stubborn refusal to do more to contain North Korea’s belligerent behavior.

“It is now urgent, because we feel that the clock is very, very quickly running out,” the official told reporters. “We would have loved to see North Korea join the community of nations. They’ve been given that opportunity over the course of different dialogues and offers over the course of four administrations, with some of our best diplomats and statesmen doing the best they could to bring about a resolution.”

https://www.yahoo.com/news/ahead-of...s-clock-has-run-out-on-n-korea-215417128.html

and this?

If so, I'm somehow failing to grasp it.

 

[Dotini]

Is there a connection between this:

and this?

If so, I'm somehow failing to grasp it.

Sorry about that. I'm trying to use music as an aid in evoking strong emotions and underlying human feelings. I'm probably not the first or last to do this, but my halting attempts are in the nature of experiment. Failures and misfires are to be expected.

 

[BobK]

Sorry about that. I'm trying to use music as an aid in evoking strong emotions and underlying human feelings. I'm probably not the first or last to do this, but my halting attempts are in the nature of experiment. Failures and misfires are to be expected.

Okay, fair enough.

I do have to say, by the way, that I did enjoy the Dion and American Graffiti clips; so much so that I'm queueing up my American Graffiti album.

Incidentally, the Five Satins' "In the Still of the Night" isn't on that album, but their "To the Aisle" is.

 

[TVR27]

China should sign a non aggression pack with South Korea.

Then China should tell North Korea it will send its army into North Korea and if they try going to war they will have South Korea and America agianst them.

Making Korea one country will be impossible as long as South Korea is allied to America.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

North Korea says that Trump's military action in Syria justifies the need to build its own missile program:

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2017-04-09/north-korea-calls-us-syria-air-strikes-unforgivable/8428398

 

[Aki Ko]

North Korea says that Trump's military action in Syria justifies the need to build its own missile program:

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2017-04-09/north-korea-calls-us-syria-air-strikes-unforgivable/8428398

No North Korea, water missiles do not count.

 

[Imari]

North Korea says that Trump's military action in Syria justifies the need to build its own missile program:

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2017-04-09/north-korea-calls-us-syria-air-strikes-unforgivable/8428398

They're right.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

No North Korea, water missiles do not count.

We jest, but Trump has reportedly been advised that North Korea will have a missile capable of meeting the continental United States before the end of his first term.

 

[Imari]

We jest, but Trump has reportedly been advised that North Korea will have a missile capable of meeting the continental United States before the end of his first term.

I'd say it's a safe bet that they have one in the very near future. Their current launch platforms aren't really that far outside it, and they've got a platform in Taepodong 2 that is technically capable at the outskirts of it's estimated range but probably in real life wouldn't make it.

Still, one generation of hardware away means that at any given time the US really has to assume that NK could put missiles in the air aimed at the continental US. NK is hardly going to give them warning.

It reminds me a bit of small dog syndrome, to be honest. You know, the small yapper type dogs who just won't shut the 🤬 up. "I'm so big and strong look at me why isn't anyone paying attention damn you I'll rip your testicles off if you just kneel down a bit barkbarkbarkbark."

Language warning, he uses the F word a bit:



If North Korea was like a golden retriever or something it'd be much easier. Then you'd have two modes, sleeping and wanting a hug with extra drool.

 

[TenEightyOne]

An American "strike group" is moving into place off Korea. Just an exercise, I should think... when was the last time the US just went ahead and fired cruise missiles at someone who'd slagged them off on Twitter?

BBC.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

when was the last time the US just went ahead and fired cruise missiles at someone who'd slagged them off on Twitter?

The question that may define our age.

 

[hardvibes]

Here we go, the real WW3 is about to begin.

 

[FoRiZon]

Here we go, the real WW3 is about to begin.

More like second Korean War. NK are just too poor and pathetic.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

NK are just too poor and pathetic.

With nuclear ambitions and half the world's population within firing range

 

[G.T.Ace]

Here we go, the real WW3 is about to begin.

About time, humanity needs a reset.

 

[Dotini]

According to Korean news agency Chosun, the "Chinese army has deployed about 150,000 troops to the North Korean border in two groups to prepare for unforeseen circumstances." The reason: the prospect of "military options", such as preemptive attacks on North Korea, like the one the United States launched on Syria.

 

[JKgo]

According to Korean news agency Chosun, the "Chinese army has deployed about 150,000 troops to the North Korean border in two groups to prepare for unforeseen circumstances." The reason: the prospect of "military options", such as preemptive attacks on North Korea, like the one the United States launched on Syria.

...Didn't know you can read Korean.

The article is saying that, as far as I can tell since my Korean isn't that fluent, a Japanese news outlet called Sankei (?) has reported of the troop movement - but what has me stumped is that the headline contains a mixture of Korean and Chinese, as well as the wording "Rumor spreads" at the end.

Since the article helpfully doesn't include the links to the original piece, I just don't know what the heck is going on.

The comments on the bottom of the page are quite ruminating, though....

 

[Dotini]

...Didn't know you can read Korean.

The article is saying that, as far as I can tell since my Korean isn't that fluent, a Japanese news outlet called Sankei (?) has reported of the troop movement - but what has me stumped is that the headline contains a mixture of Korean and Chinese, as well as the wording "Rumor spreads" at the end.

Since the article helpfully doesn't include the links to the original piece, I just don't know what the heck is going on.

The comments on the bottom of the page are quite ruminating, though....

Rumors of large troop movements (Chinese) and fleet movements (US Navy carrier strike group) are definitely adding to the atmosphere of anxiety and confusion hanging over the Korean peninsula. Perhaps Kim is beginning to feel a little bit...surrounded?

 

[TVR27]

Rumors of large troop movements (Chinese) and fleet movements (US Navy carrier strike group) are definitely adding to the atmosphere of anxiety and confusion hanging over the Korean peninsula. Perhaps Kim is beginning to feel a little bit...surrounded?

I hope China act before America.

 

[BobK]

Why are the Chinese massing on the Korean border? Is it for a preemptive attack if Kim gets too far out of hand, or is it a reaction force if the US invades, à la 1950-51?

 

[Dotini]

Why are the Chinese massing on the Korean border? Is it for a preemptive attack if Kim gets too far out of hand, or is it a reaction force if the US invades, à la 1950-51?

Excellent question. A definite explanation from the Chinese does not seem readily available.

A third option to add to your question is that the Chinese are reinforcing their border to stop North Korean refugees from pouring across in the event of a regime implosion. A fourth option is to put intimidating pressure on Kim. A fifth is to be seen (by Trump) as doing something - anything - responsive to his request to put Kim and his nukes in a box, and to forestall and confuse any precipitate action by the US fleet or rumored US commando raids into North Korea.

 

[Touring Mars]

Why are the Chinese massing on the Korean border? Is it for a preemptive attack if Kim gets too far out of hand, or is it a reaction force if the US invades, à la 1950-51?

According to Google, Chinese soldiers 'massing' on the Korean border is apparently a fairly regular occurrence, or at least 'reports' of it are. If it turns out to be anywhere close to accurate, then it is may be not all that unexpected in response to a move by the US to increase their presence in the area.

 

[Dennisch]

This is why we need Google Earth to start live streaming.

 

[Dotini]

Rumored: The two Chinese armies mustered at the Yalu are the 39th Group Army (mechanized, very large numbers of main battle tanks) and the 40th Group Army (rapid deployment)

Rumored: En route to theater, the 11th Marine Expeditionary Unit. (Specialized in night raids, amphibious and airborne).


11th Marine Expeditionary Unit insignia

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

They're right.

Wait you're saying they're right to use this obviously crude justification as a means for developing something that has been in the works since the second and perhaps first term of Bush? This is one the rare times (if you're being serious) that I disagree. Trump's bs aside, the global community is at threat with North Korea having such capabilities, and many think that after the last test, they're not a nation to scoff at.

Why are the Chinese massing on the Korean border? Is it for a preemptive attack if Kim gets too far out of hand, or is it a reaction force if the US invades, à la 1950-51?

Or third option, a quarantine group to make sure there isn't a huge refuge movement into china from North Korea.

 

[Dotini]

Apparently Kim is now threatening to nuke the US fleet approaching his coastline. Even if our missile defense systems are up to the task of knocking Kim's missile down are working, this could get ghastly.