North Korea, Sanctions, and Kim Jong-un

No, it is clear that something happened to him. We don't know if that something was done to him or if it was an accident. Until then, accusing a foreign power of murdering one of your citizens is irresponsible to say the least.
Murder, manslaughter, whatever. They're still dirty communists who basically kidnapped one of our doodz.

Here's my latest supposition: I think he went into a coma due to respiratory depression from morphine or other painkillers and/or benzos. He probably did get the spit beaten out of him, and because he's a foreigner they probably gave him some kind of painkiller and accidentally screwed up the dosing. They probably let his injuries heal while comatose before releasing him to the US. That, or they screwed up and gave way too much Ativan or whatever other benzo they used to try to sedate him. He was hysterical in the court room and probably remained that way in prison. When people behave like that, you start a sedation routine. There's your "sleeping pill". Nothing else explains an atraumatic hypoxic brain injury given his circumstances. Otherwise, there would be some kind of evidence of bodily harm. Screwing up with narcotics and benzos is really easy to do too. I know someone that survived like 4 different kinds of cancer, including stage 4 cancer, and they wound up dying because some moron nurse administered the IM dose of Ativan through the IV. Talk about a terrible way to go. Medical errors are the 3rd leading cause of death in the US. I wouldn't expect North Korea with their 1950s standards of care to be any better.

edit: for the rest of you guys, a gas chamber wouldn't make sense. Remember, he survived. They kept him alive which means that his hypoxic event couldn't have lasted too long or he would have just died and not been comatose for the entire year. He probably croaked after they screwed up the meds, and by the time they resuscitated him after transporting to medical, he was braindead. The brain is the first thing to go when you stop breathing. It's like a super-finnicky engine running at high RPM constantly. As soon as the fuel mixture gets screwed up, it blows up like a Honda in formula 1.
 
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According to a Fox news report I saw, Russia is preparing to increase its support of North Korea, repairing its rail line across the shared border and increasing trade in fuel oil. Their reputed intention is to take up any slack in reduced Chinese trade with the hermit kingdom. There are speculations about intelligence and military support, too.

Is the US currently handling the situation in exactly the right way? Kim Jong-un is rumored to be worried about a US attempt to "decapitate" his regime a la the Seal Team raid on Osama bin Laden. Should Kim be thus worried?
 
That said, the bastards have demonstrated that they'll use any means to achieve an end. Who knows what horrors this kid had to endure. Who knows what kind of drugs or chemicals they exposed him to.

That reminds me of the United States. Good to see that North Korea isn't above using good tactics, even when they're shown to them by their worst enemy. The little ones grow up so fast...

Perhaps before long they too can find themselves a cosy get-away in Cuba and ship all those nasty foreign nationals that they're making disappear there for a good dose of Uncle Kim's right boot. As long as it's done with the correct patriotic fervor, it's all totally above board.
 
That reminds me of the United States. Good to see that North Korea isn't above using good tactics, even when they're shown to them by their worst enemy. The little ones grow up so fast...

Perhaps before long they too can find themselves a cosy get-away in Cuba and ship all those nasty foreign nationals that they're making disappear there for a good dose of Uncle Kim's right boot. As long as it's done with the correct patriotic fervor, it's all totally above board.
Are you seriously comparing his treatment to the terrorists in Gitmo?!
 
Are you seriously comparing his treatment to the terrorists in Gitmo?!
Torture is torture. North Korea will justify their actions against Warmbier in the same way that the Bush Administration justified their actions against detainees - as being necessary to protect the country. The detainees might have been a greater threat to the United States than Warmbier was to North Korea, but that neither justifies either's actions or absolves them from responsibility.
 
Shocking, isn't it? How torturing prisoners who haven't been subjected to any legal processes can be viewed so differently depending on who does it.

Imo, torturing taxi drivers is kind of the same whether it's Uncle Kim or Uncle Sam.
Well technically the North Korean prisoners had some sort of legal processs, Gitmo on the other hand....
 
Well technically the North Korean prisoners had some sort of legal processs, Gitmo on the other hand....

Is that what we're calling a communist show trial now? That's some kind of legal process, so it counts?

This guy probably didn't even do anything. They may as well have murdered him.
 
Is that what we're calling a communist show trial now? That's some kind of legal process, so it counts?

No, it doesn't count. A kangaroo court is the same as no trial at all. It only counts if there's actually a semblance of fair legal process.

This guy probably didn't even do anything. They may as well have murdered him.

Indeed. I think that's what makes the comparison so apt. He committed a "crime", but realistically it was a trivial crime. He had the book thrown at him being sentenced to 15 years, and then whatever treatment he received that killed him.

Sadly, similar things have also happened with Guantanamo. It's what makes it such a stain on the traditional honour and respect with which American soldiers approach war and enemy combatants.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mani_Shaman_Turki_al-Habardi_Al-Utaybi
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubén_López_Sabariego

Personally, I find this sort of treatment of other humans disgusting regardless of who does it or what the prisoners may (or may not) have done. Unfortunately, it seems to be accepted as common practice in current military and governmental circles. Or at least not bad enough to be worth going in to bat for.

So while I despise NK for what they did to Warmbier, I have a hard time condemning them when they're simply doing what other major countries do on a regular basis.
 
My take is that Otto himself commits suicide in the prison considering other US inmates there who got worse sentences got away without being in coma.

Though we dont trust North Korea in most ways so.
 
All this issue with otto could've been prevented if say I dont know, he respected a countries laws.
Seems alot of westerners think My Countries laws apply to me or they act I will get the same kind of treatment as I do at home,like If I get caught with drugs I will get a slap on the wrist.
 
All this issue with otto could've been prevented if say I dont know, he respected a countries laws.
Seems alot of westerners think My Countries laws apply to me or they act I will get the same kind of treatment as I do at home,like If I get caught with drugs I will get a slap on the wrist.
To be fair though, it's not like North Korea has a list of it's laws and punishments.

I guess the lesson here is don't go to countries that are hostile to your own or you can be accused of spying for even the most Trival things.
 
To be fair though, it's not like North Korea has a list of it's laws and punishments.

I guess the lesson here is don't go to countries that are hostile to your own or you can be accused of spying for even the most Trival things.

Some of NKs laws are known, the tour companies tell you these laws but they mainly involve.
Dont talk to the people
Stick to the tour group
Dont bad mouth the country or its leader
Dont deface the country.

Stealing/Defacing a propaganda poster would be a no no, you don't need to be told this, plus it was not his so why was he trying to take it?.

Stealing or damaging something that does not belong to you is a crime in any country reguardless of the cost of the item.
Now cops will mainly laugh it is is something cheap like a common poster, but if it was an expensive one what would they do?
Charge and Arrest the person that did the crime.
 
But you all are assuming he's done grand larceny. He dindu nuffin!

Any law that says you can't take a poster is stupid anyway. If you got prison for a day in America, that would be ridiculous. The north Koreans are so ****ing stupid that they won't even mass produce their propaganda to sell to the masses
 
Any law that says you can't take a poster is stupid anyway.

Theft is theft. It probably wouldn't be enforced for a poster in America, but there's still a law against it. And depending on what you're stealing, the government may choose to throw the book at you.

14 years for stealing a poster is overkill, but it is North Korea. It's their country, they make the rules. Stupid or not, a law is a law. While you may think that the punishment doesn't fit the crime (and I agree), claiming that he didn't do anything is straight up false.

He did do something, and it's something that you'd normally expect at least some repercussions for if you got caught. Contrary to popular belief, you are not allowed to simply take everything in a hotel with you when you leave. The room rate does not include the towels, the bedspread, or the artwork.
 
Lets look at it this way.

If a japanese man who normally has sex with 16 year old girls who gives consent, this is legal in japan as the age of consent is 13.
Now lets say this japanese man went to america for a holiday, and he asked a 16 year old if she wants to have sex, she says yes, and he gets arrested for rape.
Does the fact that she said yes mean anything?
No, Since the age of consent is 18.

Should we feel sorry for him since what he done was not "illegal" in his country or do we just go into "throw the book at him" mode because it was involving a child?

Because it doesnt matter the law is the law, just cause it is legal in your country does not mean it is legal in another, If you go to another country you have to follow their laws, if you cant dont go to that country.
 
He did do something

To be fair, we definitely don't know that. All we have to go on is North Korea's word, a likely stage-managed confession, and a video of somebody picking up a poster. None of that is conclusive. One person alleges that sort of behaviour was routine on those tours - another claims he saw nothing to suggest Otto would've done it.

It doesn't seem clear at all what really happened - it probably never will be.
 
To be fair, we definitely don't know that. All we have to go on is North Korea's word, a likely stage-managed confession, and a video of somebody picking up a poster. None of that is conclusive. One person alleges that sort of behaviour was routine on those tours - another claims he saw nothing to suggest Otto would've done it.

It doesn't seem clear at all what really happened - it probably never will be.

I can believe the story told by the Young Pioneer Tours guy, about taking an overly aggressive, careless, youthfully alive but naive approach to touring the repressive communist state.

In looking at Otto Warmbier, one sees a very young man in his junior year of college, very ambitious in wanting to be global investment banker. He was active in his religion, had toured Israel, and had taken an exchange with the London School of Economics. Perhaps there he became tied up with Grimshaw Society and its covert activism in North Korea? Undoubtedly the North Korean police would have been aware of Warmbier's potential connection to the scandal?
 
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Perhaps there he became tied up with Grimshaw Society and its covert activism in North Korea? Undoubtedly the North Korean police would have been aware of Warmbier's potential connection to the scandal?

...and the guessing games continue...
 
To be fair, we definitely don't know that. All we have to go on is North Korea's word, a likely stage-managed confession, and a video of somebody picking up a poster. None of that is conclusive. One person alleges that sort of behaviour was routine on those tours - another claims he saw nothing to suggest Otto would've done it.

It doesn't seem clear at all what really happened - it probably never will be.

You're right, the evidence is not conclusive. However, whether that was his crime I highly doubt that NK detained an American for doing nothing. He may have simply been in the wrong place at the wrong time, as is the case with so many in Gitmo. But if I was NK and I was going to make up a story to justify why I'd arrested and sentenced a US citizen, I think I could probably do better than "he stole a poster". That's really a crime that only makes sense to a North Korean.
 
Experts are saying the ICBM North Korea just test launched is the real deal, not make of paper mache!

The time it few vertically could more than reach Alaska if it had been on a traditional trajectory.

wNKmissileMAPrangeJuly2017.jpg
 
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