North Korea threatens with a nuclear strike.

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I think you got it all wrong. You are assuming that size of the army dictates the chance of coup. Coup d'etat actually has more to do with the politics(within, or outside), and the structure of said army.

If anything, I'd say that they are just hoping for change, a chance at reunification with the South. If there was no chance of that, I'd think the chance of coup would be great.
So with a massive standing army of supposedly starving soldiers no senior member of the army has sought to overthrow this apparantly unpopular leader? I'd find that scenario hard to believe. Whatever they are doing, they have the support of the army which means morale must be strong if the ability isn't.

But perhaps they are waiting, perhaps the death of The Angry Short One will lead to post-Franco-esqu renaissance. I guess we'll find out in a few years.


I don't see an invasion of North Korea. I see a crippling bombing campaign during which we decimate the NK military overnight. We could do it with bombers flown from right here in the states. We've already bought them, we've already bought the bombs, and we're already paying for the pilots. I don't think it would cost us one dime - and probably not one human life. Not a single US soldier needs to set foot on North Korean soil. In short, North Korea is so insignificant a threat that the US wouldn't even notice crippling their military.
Entirely possible, but I'd be surprised if the SK army would gladly march alone into NK just because America cleared the way first.

I guess this all runs on how you think the NK's will take it. Yourself and a6m5 are of the impression that NK's population would welcome unification with the South, on the South's terms. I don't think they would.

I also believe that this clinical bombing of NK would serve as a wonderful rallying point for NK against America. People will know there are bombs being dropped, but it'll be upto the NK authorities to decide where to say they landed.


We're basically waiting for NK to collapse under their own weight (Soviet Union anyone?). It may happen, or they might try a nuclear strike first. If they try a nuclear strike one of two things will happen.
I don't think you can compare a country the size of NK with Soviet Union problems.
 
Time is a powerful thing [...] and it's eventually going to get rid of Kim Jong-Il for us.
No, cancer will.
 
If they do use nuclear weaponry, I would have to blame whoever 🤬 off North Korea too.

I don't. They're impossible not to piss off. I'm surprised "Team America" alone didn't cause a nuclear explosion.

Entirely possible, but I'd be surprised if the SK army would gladly march alone into NK just because America cleared the way first.

I think they would. Uniting Korea is a common goal.

I guess this all runs on how you think the NK's will take it. Yourself and a6m5 are of the impression that NK's population would welcome unification with the South, on the South's terms. I don't think they would.

There aren't any Saddam loyalists out there anymore. I don't think Kim will last any longer once he's gone.

I also believe that this clinical bombing of NK would serve as a wonderful rallying point for NK against America. People will know there are bombs being dropped, but it'll be upto the NK authorities to decide where to say they landed.

Unless the bombs land on them.


I don't think you can compare a country the size of NK with Soviet Union problems.

Their problems are remarkably similar - and with remarkably similar causes.
 
I don't. They're impossible not to piss off. I'm surprised "Team America" alone didn't cause a nuclear explosion.

You mean for things like "America! 🤬 YEAH!" and "I'm so ronery"? Nah, seems like Kim's got a sense or humor too. That or the movie wasn't shown in NK.
 
It seems no one is frightened about this (that's not directed to the people at GTPlanet, but just most people in general). I guess this is nothing new, being the fact that technically, the US-Korean War is the longest war in our history. (They did not sign a peace treaty, only an armistice. US troops still stand within 2 miles of the Korean Border.) We've been threatened numerous times from North Korea of a "war with epic proportions" and most of those threats involve this key word: NUCLEAR.
 
So with a massive standing army of supposedly starving soldiers no senior member of the army has sought to overthrow this apparantly unpopular leader? I'd find that scenario hard to believe. Whatever they are doing, they have the support of the army which means morale must be strong if the ability isn't.
I don't know what to tell you, it's like you are completely ignoring their political prison systems, and all(we don't know how many, exactly) who were killed by not aligning themselves with their government. North Koreans aren't exactly the types that pisses people off, then give them a chance to overthrow the government. The government severely punish military and non-military defectors, yet, they still attempt their escapes today.

I've always assumed that North Korean government is near-bulletproof to any coup based on the fact that people who would stand, or have stood against the government, they, along with their families are already imprisoned, many tortured, and/or executed. I also noted how they don't always just put you in prison. Your "family" could be sentenced for generations(up to 3 by articles I've read) according to reports. I believe it.

You could be completely right, but based on what I have read about this country for years, I could not disagree with you more. All the casualties, prisoners, defectors, I think they prove my point.
But perhaps they are waiting, perhaps the death of The Angry Short One will lead to post-Franco-esqu renaissance. I guess we'll find out in a few years.
I'm confused. It sounds almost like you are agreeing with me that North Korean people are looking for "out"? :lol:
 
No, cancer will.

And what helps cancer spread? Time. Six months after he gets it. I'm sure the pinpoint microwave transmission satellite the CIA installed that targets Kim's bed is working quite nicely...

Its not about justification. I'm not saying North Korea would be right to use a nuke in any scenario.
I am saying that I would also blame whoever put them in a position where they use one. At least military manouveres and blaming the sinking of ships on them is not exactly the best way to avoid them feeling threatened (again).
It kind of feels like we are trying to play their bluff with potentially disastarous consequences.

Like Danoff says... it's almost impossible not to piss off Kim Jong-Il.

You're mad because we sank one of your boats? That pisses me off.

You've deported our spies? I'm stinking mad!

Your economy is booming? Ours is crap? Damnit! I'm pushing the button!!!

It seems no one is frightened about this (that's not directed to the people at GTPlanet, but just most people in general). I guess this is nothing new, being the fact that technically, the US-Korean War is the longest war in our history. (They did not sign a peace treaty, only an armistice. US troops still stand within 2 miles of the Korean Border.) We've been threatened numerous times from North Korea of a "war with epic proportions" and most of those threats involve this key word: NUCLEAR.

Aside from the United States, no military power with nuclear weapons... even those engaged in all-out war... (Let's see... Britain... India... Israel... Russia in Indochina, the Middle-east and Korea... China (trade wars count, right?)... etcetera...) has ever used them. The whole point of nuclear deterrence is that if you start the fight, everyone else has enough bombs to lob back that you not only won't win... you will literally cease to exist.

Kim may be a raving lunatic... but he knows that the threat of using the device is more powerful than actually trying to use it. And failing... through dint of poor engineering... SoKor anti-missile defenses... or Google Maps going off-line at an inappropriate moment.
 
Google's new slogan:

Google Maps: "Your Number #1 threat against your own country" "Use Google Maps today, get bombed by an angry Asain tomorrow"


Please make sure nobody from Korea sees this.....
 
Are you suggesting Kim's missile systems use Google Maps for guidance? :lol:

"Re have street view confirmation that Barack Obama is rithin the Five Guys buirding."
 
Think about it... GPRS and wireless internet are cheap. Sure... commercial GPS is not as accurate as military grade... but a dozen meters off is no big deal when you've got a kiloton warhead... :lol:

"Re have street view confirmation that Barack Obama is rithin the Five Guys buirding."

That's Japanese... It would be Ballack Obama is tahgetted. Fie! Fie!
 
That's Japanese... It would be Ballack Obama is tahgetted. Fie! Fie!

That was my best text Team America impression.

"Road Artirr'rryy rith dah thullty ye'ah ord pwrison gochujang!"
 
I can't believe I haven't watched that one yet... though after the South Park movie, I don't think my wife would let me watch that one in the house. Party Censorship FTW.
 
Like Danoff says... it's almost impossible not to piss off Kim Jong-Il.

I have been reading on the way Mao and Stalin were running their country, they need an enemy to motivate the population and justify their actions.

The way to really leave them powerless is to state you support them and think there will be successful negotiations. Injustice in the country is more difficult to swallow then.
However they will just reject this as two faced talk and still create an image of you as an enemy, maybe even strike first as prevention of being struck first.

P.S.: Hitler used very similar we "have an enemy story" and I do not want to go into current western countries that seem to believe this is a valid political option.
 
There aren't any Saddam loyalists out there anymore. I don't think Kim will last any longer once he's gone.

Their problems are remarkably similar - and with remarkably similar causes.

My memory of Saddam is getting hazy, but his supporters, variously known as Baathists, secular Sunnis, or the Sons of Iraq, are still much in evidence.

Kim's sons, those brain-damaged, dope smoking playboys, are thought to play a key role in Kim's succession. Probably an anonymous cabal of generals are calling the shots at this moment.

Hopefully this little rhubarb will all fizzle out when the maneuvers end and the North returns to the six party talks. The North wants one-on-one talks with the US, but won't get it. Like many others, I think most all Koreans desire reunification, but the current situation is too much to the benefit of major players China and US to change much. North and South Korea are locked pawns on the strategic chessboard.
 
Well, I think everyone is assuming far too much in the American role over South Korea at this point. Their new(er) President and more hawkish leadership have done more than enough to provoke the DPRK into action. Of course, when you do sink a Korean ship and kill all of the sailors on board, something is going to happen otherwise.

The DPRK does not have the resources to continue open war against South Korea and it's allies, and it seems increasingly unlikely that the PRC would do anything to back them up in the event of war. It would seem more likely that the DPRK would shell the northern portion of Korea, invading and occupying Seoul as some kind of bargaining chip in the region, but I feel as though that would severely backfire as it would not only cause the US to enter the theater to take back the area, but it would also disrupt trade with the PRC, sending ripples through their own economic system.

It'll take time, but it seem reasonable to expect the DPRK to collapse within, and then have Korea enter to give aid and sort out the mess. Probably.

Or, a United Korea invades the US after we are severely weakened by war, economic depression and a flu epidemic, push all the way to the Mississippi, and then cut off the east by poisoning the lifeline of the west. We are the resistance, people.
 
North Korea has almost zero chance of successfully invading the South without full support of the Chinese. While South Korean military doesn't possess the capability to attack anybody else but North Korea(their Navy's not really geared for anything else, except defense), they are equipped better, they have more of those better equipments(NK has more stats stuffing garbage), their troops are better trained(I'm not talking about the ground troops either). And I just had to look it up, but they have millions of reserve troops, too(3 million according to wiki).

Only reason why I say "almost", is because of the WMD North Korea would most certainly put to use in case of invasion.
 
"Almost" is still being too kind, I have to say. Particularly when China almost certainly doesn't want North Korea doing stupid crap like that anyways.
 
"Almost" is still being too kind, I have to say. Particularly when China almost certainly doesn't want North Korea doing stupid crap like that anyways.
Well, it's the "X" factor. It's a long shot, but I figured it was worth mentioning!
 
I think he's referring to times from the video he linked to.
 
I think he's referring to times from the video he linked to.
Yes, I know she is. I'm questioning what happens at those times - it's July 30th, and we're near the end of our download capacity. There's no way I'd be able to watch an hour-long documentary online to find out what she means, so I'm asking for the executive summary.
 
Do what, exactly?
When a woman (political prisoner) gives birth, a soldier kills the newborn baby.
They select fifty women (healthy), give them poisoned food and watch as they die slowly vomiting blood.
They put people in a gas chamber and watch how they react if they are a family or if they don't know each other before dying.
 
I thought that might have been what you're asking.

It's kind of a complex answer. North Korea has been locked in a state of near-famine for over a decade. A recent health report by the WHO said that conditions are so poor that many people in rural areas have to regularly eat bark, leaves and grass as a part of their diet just to stay alive. In cities, health conditions are so bad that hospitals are forced to do operations without anaesthesia - not to torture people, but to perform live-saving surgery.

You would think that enough is enough and that the people would revolt - but they don't. More to the point, they won't. North Koreans are seriously indoctrinated. They believe that their homeland is paradise on earth. They believe that Kim Il-sung was almost a deity made flesh, and that Kim Jong-il is the next best thing. When Kim Il-sung died, North Koreans packed the streets a hundred deep to mourn the loss of their leader. When Kim Jong-il shuffles off (and by the sounds of things, it could be soon, because he's started transferring power to his youngest son), it's probably going to be more of the same. A regime change in North Korea isn't going to do anything - the people still believe that their leaders are the greatest men alive. If they have to suffer for it, they're not going to complain; they no doubt believe that their suffering is for the glory of Pyongyang.

Not only have Kim Jong-il convinced his people of this, but he's convinced himself of it. He was born in an army camp inside the Soviet Union when his father was serving there, but according to official North Korean doctrine, he was born on the slopes of the nation's most sacred mountain after his birth had been foretold by an eagle. North Korean school children are taught that Kim Jong-il does not go to the toilet because he does not need to. Stuff like that; it would be hilariously insane (though not as insane as the guy who was running Turkmenistan a few years ago) if it weren't so terrifying and so oppresseive.

One of Kim Jon-il's beliefs seems to be that political dissent is some kind of cancer, and that it is infectious. If someone dissents, the stain sets - for three generations. Entire families are locked up in labour camps because one person didn't speak highly of Pyongyang. Kim Jong-il is essentailly trying to bully those thoughts out of their minds, or at least keep them away from other people where their "cancerous" thoughts may spread like a disease. Few people committed to labour camps leave. If by some miracle they survive a twenty year sentence, they're probably given another one just to be sure.

Okay, exposition over. Now it's time for the serious stuff you mentioned (as if the above isn't already serious enough). I can only extrapolate parts here, but I'm guessing the reason why the North Koreans commit those atrocities is because they don't consider those people to be human, or at the very least, second-class citizens. To them, to be Korean is to be in awe of Pyongyang. If they are not in awe of Pyongyang, if they do not believe in the greatness of Kim Jong-il, then they are not Korean. If they are not Korean, then they are not people. They are animals. They are cast into the prison camp system as punishment, and give up any claim they have of people human. Yes, it's like the Nazis and the holocaust. They'll maim, they'll torture and they'll kill. They'll cut babies from the womb, test chemical weapons on them and gas them. They'll throw the bodies in unmarked mass graves and forget about it. And all because the victims had the nerve to conjure up an independent thought.

The problem is that there's not a lot we can do about it. We can't intervene; for one, we have no idea where these prison camps are actually located because very few survive them. And if we tried to intervene, it would start a war. Kim Jong-il is crazy enough to drop the Bomb (assuming he has it) if he's convinced an army is coming for him. He could aim it at that army - or he could just as easily drop it on Seoul or aim for Tokyo, someone removed from the conflict so that the world will back down (at least, that's probably what he thinks will happen). And if ever an army did breach North Korea's borders, Pyongyang would expect its people to rise up and fight the invaders off. Unarmed. And they'd do it because they believe in their regime. They'd believe that by sacrificing themselves, North Korea's glory will continue. But it won't, because if America invaded North Korea, it would be an unfair fight. Those people, who have committed no crime except believe in something (however misplaced that faith may be) would die for nothing.

So there isn't really anything that can be done about it. Not without thousands or even millions of innocent people dying. We can't walk in and change the leadership, because it won't achieve anything except maybe a bloody coup the instant our backs are turned. Right now, the only two really realistic choices would be to either a) do nothing, but trry and gradually change North Korea's way of thinking over the next century or so, or b) carpet bomb the place. And the latter would result in millions of needless deaths.
 
From what I've been reading since I was just a kid, many North Koreans wanted out by the 60's. I still think that only two things these people are hanging onto, at this point are: 1) For the pig to drop dead already. 2) Reunification with the South.

I was explaining to someone here earlier how brutal North Korean government is. It's almost like, if they just shot you, you are actually quite lucky. There's a excellent chance that they can actually make it a lot worse for you.

While there are always some who'd believe in something, blindly, I'm convinced that almost all of these people are just going with the flow, out of fear of being reported.

I knew about this three generation imprisonment, but I had no idea how they came to three generations, exactly. Incredible.
 
I think the idea behind the three generations thing is that if I'm a dissenter, then my children and my parents also get imprisoned. I had those thoughts and I spoke those words, so I get locked up for it. I created my children, so they are at risk of dissent; if they are born of a dissenter, then they are at risk of dissenting themselves, since everybody knows ([/sarcasm]) that independent thoughts are contaigous. And since I had to get my anti-government thoughts from somewhere, they will lock up my parents because they created me. My thoughts came from them.

But it's really just a way of terrorising the population into submission - instead of simply punishing the person who spoke out, the regime in Pyongyang punishes everyone around them, too. Children in North Korean schools are taught that those who are condemned to the prison camps deserve it, even if they have been thrown there without charge. The problem is not so much that Kim Jong-il is taking political prisoners (which is of course a problem, but the less serious one here), but that he is indoctrinating children from a young age to believe in his so-called glory. He is trying to eradicate all independent thought, but I shudder to think of what will happen to the North Korean people when he dies. Kim has spent the last decade or so disowning his children and then taking them back in, and I don't think they fit into his doctrine that much. If his successor isn't accepted by the people, Pyongyang will have no control, and while that might sound like a good thing, it could start a war. Kim's successor needs the people to at least accept him, but if he doesn't get it, hardliners in Pyongyang may be forced into taking control of the country. But since they're even further removed from Kim Jong-il than his son, the portion of the population that has not been quelled into complete submission may trigger a revolution - and that won't end well.
 
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