Patch 1.10 - new single player mode "GT League"

[MikeTheHockeyFan]

Ok, since (at least) fall of 2013, they've been doing ....what exactly

I’d submit that 3-4 years is not an outrageously long development cycle for a AAA title.

We could posit that they spent a lot of time working on the core technology of the title such as matchmaking infrastructure. Or we could also posit that the team went one direction with the title, Kaz discovered iRacing, and they spend the last 2 years sprinting towards the mostly online direction.

 

[Turbo Racer 48]

So where does GT League fit into that? I mean, one could see GT Sport as being a decision based somewhat on the amount of cars/tracks they'd be able to generate in the time - clearly not enough for a decent traditional GT experience. And since then it's been a very pure vision presented to us: "join the human race". 10s of millions spent on advertising that very slogan.

Given all of that, you still think GT League just happened to be the only part that missed the Sept/Oct deadline, by a mere couple of months? And that it makes any more sense now than it did back then (2015), with just 15 more cars? (15 cars which for all we know, could've been originally scheduled to be in at launch).

No, it doesn't add up.

Speculation is good but I suspect we will never know.....

I could come up with 2 other scenarios easily:
• Contractually GTS had to launch with an online focus to meet FIA requirements. Move to include greater offline content required negotiation with FIA....
• In between initial vision discussions with FIA the concept changed as the environment changed.... I remember discussions that the three major races series DTM/Super GT etc were going to have common rules which is now stillborn ... Forza have now signed a contract with US racing organisation IMSA - was that a defensive move etc.

Either of these would mean that contingency plans and changes were needed as development proceeded which is normal in any project that takes 3-4 years. I do think FIA involvement seems lower than expected for instance.

Slightly off topic but interesting you mention Human Race advertising This was first shown at E3 in Los Angeles and my impression is it seemed to get more exposure in NA than elsewhere.

Launch Advertising in other regions had a slightly different focus - don't believe Human Race approach was used in the UK TV advertising nor was it a focus for Amazon Uk and I'm sure we all remember the quirky Japanese based social/commentator approach !

Nor should we forget the effective social media campaign where non affiliated companies were advertising their liveries on GTS vehicles !
(these being reasons why I have some sympathy with not everyone knowing how much of a radical departure GTS was going to be apparently.....)

Personally I think the Human race angle was aimed at the US as that market is known to have declining interest in cars etc but high online use so it was hoped this would have resonance but again thats speculation....

 

[Foxis]

Ok, since (at least) fall of 2013, they've been doing ....what exactly?

I'm going to go out on a limb (not really) and say that a "full game" has been developed and is being doled out in parts. I thought this was just a prologue when GTS came out, but this single player addition proves me wrong. They are (I'm guessing) 6 months ahead of the releases. Releases will probably always be a combination of new stuff and carry over content.

The three cars we got we probably not ready for the ship date so we got them late.

If so, that would be an incredibly stupid business decision. It would likely have two effects, one of which we are already observing;
- Initial backlash due to meagre content. Poor reviews. Relatively bad sales.
- Later backlash when the strategy becomes obvious. Fury is the standard reaction when people perceive that a developer holds back content to release as DLC later on.

Edit: And I will add an explanation for my negative stance and frequent lamenting:
I am so disappointed and saddened that GTS is a missed opportunity. It could have been *so* good if they had pushed the eSport aspect with some focus.

They are so extremely poor at communication and delivering on promises. There is still no word on how they will handle the championship season, and I doubt they know what they will be doing themselves. And where are the Hamilton videos they teased?
Any developer with their act together would have timed content and communication to work effectively together to build confidence in the product and customer loyalty.
Is this what PD has been doing? No...not so much...

 

[Tired Tyres]

At a point when they know what the can release and in what quarter.

The press release says it all. GT League is "based" on GT single player of old...so it's just single player. They likely knew a very long time ago that it MIGHT miss Christmas. They've likely learned from the past and if it's announced to be released in December, it will be. It has to be done testing by now and it's waiting for a preset date.

They've announced this quarter what will be coming next quarter. Next quarter, they will announce what's coming for the following quarter. Etc. Etc.

Why on earth would you disclose something to the public in the product roadmap that isn’t slated to or won’t ship with the core product?

Single player isn’t even the focus of the core product.

@Scaff I was attacking his ******** argument, sir, I think TT is probably a lovely guy as most of us are

Have either of you played GT6? Seriously.

 

[Voodoovaj]

Well, here's a little "reaction" that people seem to have forgotten about.

People love racing the Nurb. PD has scanned the Isle of Mann TT circuit.

... Was that abandoned? Is it yet to come?

The Le Mans track is all over the Scapes and we have GR1 cars.... But no playable Le Mans in game. I call that odd.

Nope, this is all a plan. Good or bad? Time will tell.

 

[Turbo Racer 48]

If so, that would be an incredibly stupid business decision. It would likely have two effects, one of which we are already observing;
- Initial backlash due to meagre content. Poor reviews. Relatively bad sales.
- Later backlash when the strategy becomes obvious. Fury is the standard reaction when people perceive that a developer holds back content to release as DLC later on.

Edit: And I will add an explanation for my negative stance and frequent lamenting:
I am so disappointed and saddened that GTS is a missed opportunity. It could have been *so* good if they had pushed the eSport aspect with some focus.

They are so extremely poor at communication and delivering on promises. There is still no word on how they will handle the championship season, and I doubt they know what they will be doing themselves. And where are the Hamilton videos they teased?
Any developer with their act together would have timed content and communication to work effectively together to build confidence in the product and customer loyalty.
Is this what PD has been doing? No...not so much...

Its just 2 months. PD are running an extensive test season have pre announced the next release and have committed to 50 cars DLC by end March 2018.

For PD I actually think thats a lot of communication.....don't forget they ran two beta's and showed clearly unfinished product for more than a year too which is unheard of and suggests they were looking for constant feedback....

I do think we should give then the chance to demonstrate they can deliver. If by April 2018 these things are not resolved then it would be much more reasonable to criticise them in my opinion.

 

[MikeTheHockeyFan]

Have either of you played GT6? Seriously.

I’ve been playing the game since GT in 1997, all major releases.

The core single player gameplay on-track has been stale since the series moved to PlayStation 3. They’ve never invested in improving the single player experience and GT League will be a regurgitation of that stale ‘racing’.

 

[Turbo Racer 48]

Well, here's a little "reaction" that people seem to havr forgotten about.

People love racing the Nurb. PD has scanned the Isle of Mann TT circuit.

... Was that abandoned? Is it yet to come?

The Le Mans track is all over the Scapes and we havr GR1 cars.... But no playable Le Mans in game. I call that odd.

Nope, this is all a plan. Good or bad? Time will tell.

And the latest LMP1 arrived in November DLC...Kaz is on record that SuperGT will come too.

I think they have a pre-determined plan they are working to but it will done in their way and there will be surprises as there always are with PD.

Whether the plan included GT League or not is the moot point and as I and @Scaff said how it is implemented may give pointers....

 

[Scaff]

Ok, since (at least) fall of 2013, they've been doing ....what exactly?

I'm going to go out on a limb (not really) and say that a "full game" has been developed and is being doled out in parts. I thought this was just a prologue when GTS came out, but this single player addition proves me wrong. They are (I'm guessing) 6 months ahead of the releases. Releases will probably always be a combination of new stuff and carry over content.

The three cars we got we probably not ready for the ship date so we got them late.

We will find out when it's released.

If it's a fully fledged and detailed single player that expands on what has come before I will be more than happy to concede the point.

If it's a copy and paste of the single races and mini championship events with no practice and qualifying, then I'm going to stick with my current view. As that could quite easily have been put together in a few months.

Speculation is good but I suspect we will never know.....

I could come up with 2 other scenarios easily:
• Contractually GTS had to launch with an online focus to meet FIA requirements. Move to include greater offline content required negotiation with FIA....
• In between initial vision discussions with FIA the concept changed as the environment changed.... I remember discussions that the three major races series DTM/Super GT etc were going to have common rules which is now stillborn ... Forza have now signed a contract with US racing organisation IMSA - was that a defensive move etc.

Either of these would mean that contingency plans and changes were needed as development proceeded which is normal in any project that takes 3-4 years. I do think FIA involvement seems lower than expected for instance.

Slightly off topic but interesting you mention Human Race advertising This was first shown at E3 in Los Angeles and my impression is it seemed to get more exposure in NA than elsewhere.

Launch Advertising in other regions had a slightly different focus - don't believe Human Race approach was used in the UK TV advertising nor was it a focus for Amazon Uk and I'm sure we all remember the quirky Japanese based social/commentator approach !

Nor should we forget the effective social media campaign where non affiliated companies were advertising their liveries on GTS vehicles !
(these being reasons why I have some sympathy with not everyone knowing how much of a radical departure GTS was going to be apparently.....)

Personally I think the Human race angle was aimed at the US as that market is known to have declining interest in cars etc but high online use so it was hoped this would have resonance but again thats speculation....

First option is out, as the FIA series were supposed to be part of GT6.

http://www.gran-turismo.com/gb/news/00_1153498.html

 

[Foxis]

Its just 2 months. PD are running an extensive test season have pre announced the next release and have committed to 50 cars DLC by end March 2018.
------
I do think we should give then the chance to demonstrate they can deliver. If by April 2018 these things are not resolved then it would be much more reasonable to criticise them in my opinion.

We have to agree to disagree. In my opinion (backed up by quite some experience) the period to demonstrate the viability of an entertainment product is at launch, or shortly thereafter. If the fundamentals are not in place and working now, I highly doubt they will be in April.

Also, releasing cars will not do any difference whatsoever. It is primarily tracks that are missing, and online racing events with any semblance of thought behind them.
Right now it's a slot machine.
Which weird trio of races will we get today? Which cars will be overpowered this week due to just lumping all manner of cars into the same series? Oh, my Car X is understeering, I will adjust the setup....or I won't as I am not allowed to adjust setups in this FIA-sanctioned, new eSport. Yay.

All of the above could have been fixed yesterday *IF* Kaz & Co had stuck to any ambition to actually deliver on the hype.
I think that is ultimately my feeling: We/I have been bamboozled. All the talk about GTS and how it would lead to a new, FIA-sanctioned eSport was just that, talk.

And for all of those claiming they *have* delivered: What point exactly does the FIA partnership have in all of this? Is there *anything* in the game that actually ties in with RL motorsport at this point?

 

[Tired Tyres]

I’ve been playing the game since GT in 1997, all major releases.

The core single player gameplay on-track has been stale since the series moved to PlayStation 3. They’ve never invested in improving the single player experience and GT League will be a regurgitation of that stale ‘racing’.

So have I. Agreed on the PS3 era. The question was in regards this.

Why on earth would you disclose something to the public in the product roadmap that isn’t slated to or won’t ship with the core product?

If you played GT6 and kept up with the news on it I don't see how you could post that and keep a straight face.

 

[BanditRa101801]

Over here waiting for the patch like:

And then finally saying:

 

[Voodoovaj]

Have either of you played GT6? Seriously.

Yes, I have waited the MANY YEARS it takes for every iteration to come out, which is why I am immensely skeptical that any content is a short sighted reaction to forum opinions. And all the talk about disappointing sales needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

Remember that GT6 sold awful in it's first week (https://www.engadget.com/2013/12/09...-week-uk-sales-around-five-times-less-than-g/) yet. we all still loved it and played it to death. And then there is this tidbit (https://www.gtplanet.net/gran-turismo-6-sales-revealed-at-2-37-million-copies/) but it still went on to hit nearly 4 million to date.

GT6 hit 2.37 million by 2015 (two years after launch). GTS has hit half that after one week (if vgchartz is accurate). I would love to know what it is now.

Also, take sales with a grain of salt when comparing to GT5 for instance. GT5 came out in a world where every kid wanted a console. That's not the case anymore.

GTS, IS a prologue...it's a short lived prologue to the GT7 we're getting starting this month and over the next year.

 

[Turbo Racer 48]

We have to agree to disagree. In my opinion (backed up by quite some experience) the period to demonstrate the viability of an entertainment product is at launch, or shortly thereafter. If the fundamentals are not in place and working now, I highly doubt they will be in April.

yes lets do that indeed as we have done already once 👍.

Using a war analogy for the moment perhaps its the difference between whether this is seen as the most critical battle of the war or the opening shot of a long campaign that will have many twists and turns.

I'm in the latter camp as I think GTS like other GT games will have a long shelf life including additional sales year 2 & 3 if they deliver ongoing improvements and excitement. Its also PD's first shot at an online e-sports approach and this for the racing genre in general is in its infancy in terms of take up and user understanding so mistakes will be made and blind alleys followed potentially.........

PD are also embarking to my mind on a major change management approach here and as I posted elsewhere sometimes you need to step back to re-consolidate and move forward in the long run........at the very least GT League buys them some time and may also help bring in users who are converted to online (I now like both but am still learning online....).....balancing the demands of both communities moving forward will be key.

 

[Scaff]

Yes, I have waited the MANY YEARS it takes for every iteration to come out, which is why I am immensely skeptical that any content is a short sighted reaction to forum opinions. And all the talk about disappointing sales needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

No we need to take then in context with the past series titles, the install base at that time and using accurate sales data.

Remember that GT6 sold awful in it's first week (https://www.engadget.com/2013/12/09...-week-uk-sales-around-five-times-less-than-g/) yet. we all still loved it and played it to death. And then there is this tidbit (https://www.gtplanet.net/gran-turismo-6-sales-revealed-at-2-37-million-copies/) but it still went on to hit nearly 4 million to date.

Nope.

You may have done, many others may have done, but certainly not all of us. Personally I found it to be the most lackluster title in the series and easily the one I played the least of. It and GT5 are the reason I moved to the X360 and FM that gen.

GT6 hit 2.37 million by 2015 (two years after launch). GTS has hit half that after one week (if vgchartz is accurate). I would love to know what it is now.

It's not.

Also, take sales with a grain of salt when comparing to GT5 for instance. GT5 came out in a world where every kid wanted a console. That's not the case anymore.

You might want to check install base size when both released.

GTS, IS a prologue...it's a short lived prologue to the GT7 we're getting starting this month and over the next year.

Odd, as Kaz disagrees with you.

 

[SHGTP]

I’d submit that 3-4 years is not an outrageously long development cycle for a AAA title.

We could posit that they spent a lot of time working on the core technology of the title such as matchmaking infrastructure. Or we could also posit that the team went one direction with the title, Kaz discovered iRacing, and they spend the last 2 years sprinting towards the mostly online direction.

At PSX Sony put together a presentation for fans detailing game development. According to those speakers every Sony AAA 1st party title has at least a 5yr dev cycle. This includes pre-production, tech......before we even get down to building the game. Right now all studios and the ICE tech team are well into PS5 development, whether it be early software prototyping or working with Cerny and co. finalising the hardware spec and dev tools.

Many also miss the role of 1st party software in selling hardware and promotions. At least 50% of GT Sport's lifetime sales will come 6 months after release. 2018 is likely to be PS4's biggest year, another 20m sales, and even as we move into '19, '20, '21, you'll still be seeing tens of millions of console and PSVR sales. By the family friendly nature, it's genre, and little outside Wipeout similar in Sony's 1st party stable, GT Sport will continue to be one of the staples of bundles and promotions for the remainder of this gen. A gen that will continue years after PS5's release.

It's for these reasons it makes economic sense to continue development and support the title with DLC. Whether some plans have been brought forward, who knows. When all's said and done we'll be looking at well over 6m units sold and a baseline code that will help PD transition to PS5 much earlier in the gen cycle.

 

[Voodoovaj]

Odd, as Kaz disagrees with you.

This is merely my assertion, I'm not saying it was the plan.

You may have done, many others may have done, but certainly not all of us. Personally I found it to be the most lackluster title in the series and easily the one I played the least of. It and GT5 are the reason I moved to the X360 and FM that gen.

Are you back now? Or are you still on the Forza Bad wagon?

So, you completely avoided, in essence, over a decade of Gran Turismo and you're discussing the merits of the next installment? Maybe this game is made for the people who like it, rather than those who do not.

 

[Foxis]

I'm in the latter camp as I think GTS like other GT games will have a long shelf life including additional sales year 2 & 3 if they deliver ongoing improvements and excitement. Its also PD's first shot at an online e-sports approach and this for the racing genre in general is in its infancy in terms of take up and user understanding so mistakes will be made and blind alleys followed potentially.........

Well, for the record I do hope you are right. I do not wish for PD to fail, quite the contrary.
Most of my frustration stems from the fact that they are *so* close to getting it right. Had they implemented one recurring race that allowed for tuning, a realistic qualifying session (i.e.. more then a few minutes), and stricter penalties for contact (even with a pure no-fault system), I would have been singing their praise.
So, perhaps they will get there eventually. Lets hope so.

 

[05XR8]

Is it possible to select cars or classes, currently?

20 car field

N700
- Charger

N600
- F- Type R

N500
- Camaro
- RC F

N400
- M4
- Mustang
- A45

N300
- Focus
- Civic Type R
- Genesis
- Evo
- STI
- Megane

N200
- 208
- Clio
- Swift
- 86
- GTI
- MiTo

If not, just hoping to make a custom championship. I think the ToCA games and Forza 3(?) were only console games we could do this.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

Forza have now signed a contract with US racing organisation IMSA - was that a defensive move etc.

If this is true I wonder if the lack of inclusion of most of the U.S.A. tracks in GTS if this may be the reason and lack of being able to obtain a license permitting the tracks due to the agreement with XBOX based Forza?

it's depressing to see quite a large number who, judging by their ratings, have tried Sport races but had an absolutely terrible time, and given up. And of course there's also the

I think many people are not content playing a game where actually coming in first may be a rare commodity. Most can beat the AI pretty easily but online it is a totally different ball game. They try a few races find out they are ending up in 12th place or worse and quit racing online.

More serious racing fans or followers understand that gaining 5 positions from 15th to 10th can be considered a win in a way and walk away content, casual gamer's not so much so.

 

[Tired Tyres]

Yes, I have waited the MANY YEARS it takes for every iteration to come out, which is why I am immensely skeptical that any content is a short sighted reaction to forum opinions. And all the talk about disappointing sales needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

Remember that GT6 sold awful in it's first week (https://www.engadget.com/2013/12/09...-week-uk-sales-around-five-times-less-than-g/) yet. we all still loved it and played it to death. And then there is this tidbit (https://www.gtplanet.net/gran-turismo-6-sales-revealed-at-2-37-million-copies/) but it still went on to hit nearly 4 million to date.

GT6 hit 2.37 million by 2015 (two years after launch). GTS has hit half that after one week (if vgchartz is accurate). I would love to know what it is now.

Also, take sales with a grain of salt when comparing to GT5 for instance. GT5 came out in a world where every kid wanted a console. That's not the case anymore.

GTS, IS a prologue...it's a short lived prologue to the GT7 we're getting starting this month and over the next year.

GT6 was £19.99 very quickly after coming out mate. That's the vast majority of its sales numbers. GTS has consistently tracked between GT5P (a budget price game) and GT6 numbers. It isn't performing well. Vgchartz is a no no. It picked up during Black Friday and then dropped back down again.

 

[05XR8]

If this is true I wonder if the lack of inclusion of most of the U.S.A. tracks in GTS if this may be the reason and lack of being able to obtain a license permitting the tracks due to the agreement with XBOX based Forza?



I think many people are not content playing a game where actually coming in first may be a rare commodity. Most can beat the AI pretty easily but online it is a totally different ball game. They try a few races find out they are ending up in 12th place or worse and quit racing online.

More serious racing fans or followers understand that gaining 5 positions from 15th to 10th can be considered a win in a way and walk away content, casual gamer's not so much so.

Project Cars 2 have Road America, Watkins Glen, COTA, Texas, Indy, Daytona, Leguna Seca. Not sure if that's the reason they're not in GTS.

 

[MatskiMonk]

More serious racing fans or followers understand that gaining 5 positions from 15th to 10th can be considered a win in a way and walk away content, casual gamer's not so much so.

Out of interest, do you think these "more serious" racing fans also enjoy finishing 10th after half an hours racing against AI in an offline mode?

 

[VFOURMAX1]

Out of interest, do you think these "more serious" racing fans also enjoy finishing 10th after half an hours racing against AI in an offline mode?

Even with the AI in "Professional" mode they are easy to beat in a 2/3 lap race starting from the usual 11th starting spot. If you cannot handily beat the AI while offline then you are going to be in for a real shock online in sport mode. Even handily beating the AI you will find out your skills may be be normal than you thought from your offline experiences.

 

[Turbo Racer 48]

If this is true I wonder if the lack of inclusion of most of the U.S.A. tracks in GTS if this may be the reason and lack of being able to obtain a license permitting the tracks due to the agreement with XBOX based Forza ?
.

It did cross my mind so we will have to see. @Scaff did state there's no precedent. Willow Springs for instance has the highest number of layouts with 1 new and 2 carryover.

What is interesting to me as I've posted before is that every geographical region (including UK) has one real track. Its almost as if no region could have an advantage given most real tracks have been in previous GT games......alternatively from marketing perspective this was the minimum requirement.....

It will be interesting to see if this constraint continues when tracks are added assuming they are real.

Adding Barcelona as @queleuleu has highlighted would work as not previously in GT games...

 

[MatskiMonk]

Even with the AI in "Professional" mode they are easy to beat in a 2/3 lap race starting from the usual 11th starting spot. If you cannot handily beat the AI while offline then you are going to be in for a real shock online in sport mode. Even handily beating the AI

Whilst maybe true, that's not really what I asked. I'm curious to know if the impetus to play is still there, when offline, even if you're going to finish tenth, is still there for "more serious" racing fans.

 

[Turbo Racer 48]

GT6 was £19.99 very quickly after coming out mate. That's the vast majority of its sales numbers. GTS has consistently tracked between GT5P (a budget price game) and GT6 numbers. It isn't performing well. Vgchartz is a no no. It picked up during Black Friday and then dropped back down again.

Actually its vast majority of its sales were bundles and we don't know the split of revenue for when it helps to sell a PS4.

For example a £299 Pro bundle containing both COD and GTS was £50 below Pro price alone. On that logic neither COD or GTS had any revenue which is clearly not going to be the case from a tax perspective let alone corporate revenue accounting.........

All this is line with Sony's 'harvest' strategy as laid out in May 2017 (see previous posts)

 

[Turbo Racer 48]

First option is out, as the FIA series were supposed to be part of GT6.

http://www.gran-turismo.com/gb/news/00_1153498.html

My bad - had quite forgotten about that - good spot !

Just shows how long these negotiations can take to come to actual fruition plus of course PD's less than stellar delivery record on PS3 for whatever reason......

 

[VFOURMAX1]

The 2018 IMSA Weathertech race schedule includes the following U.S.A. tracks on the schedule
Daytona,
Sebring
Long Beach,
Mid Ohio
Belle Isle,
Watkins Glenn
Lime Rock,
Road America
Virginia Int, Raceway,
Laguna Seca
Road Atlanta
So if it is a licensing issue pretty much most of the good tracks in the U.S.A. will be off limits. That would suck for American Racers that would like to race on home circuits.

 

[Turbo Racer 48]

The 2018 IMSA Weathertech race schedule includes the following U.S.A. tracks on the schedule
Daytona Sebring
Long Beach Mid Ohio
Belle Isle Watkins Glenn
Lime Rock Road America
Virginia Int, Raceway Laguna Seca
Road Atlanta
So if it is a licensing issue pretty much most of the good tracks in the U.S.A. will be off limits. That would suck for American Racers that would like to race on home circuits.

Yes indeed and blow a hole in FIA participation in the US where PD are trying to grow and Forza is relatively strong..... We will have to wait and see as the new tracks are announced suspect when 1.09 drops that there will be next DLc news which might include tracks......