PENALTY SYSTEM IS STILL A PIECE OF ****!!!

[oneloops]

Erm, the dirtiest drivers do not want to be at the top of the DR points. They are however the ones with the highest win ratio and total wins. DR resets, lowering SR or simply getting away with dirty manoevers for the victory.

I've reached A+ 4 or 5 times as well, sure it's possible driving clean. I even almost reached A+ without qualifying, I actually saw @GOTMAXPOWER do it on his alt account with a broken penalty system. That doesn't mean the system is anywhere near ok. Actually starting from the back, the dirtier the drivers in the race, the higher you can climb up easily since they'll be taking cars out left and right and each other and you can easily drive by. The fact that I can climb up so easily from the back proves there are too many dirty drivers in SR.S abusing the system.

I don't feel powerless either, intentionally bump me off, good chance I'll catch up and get my pound of flesh However those qualifying and driving at the top of their pace from the start don't have such options and are actually trying to get to better DR and hopefully cleaner races. You and I generally start below our pace and have plenty 'spare' pace to avoid and catch back up.

Anyway a disconnect is still far worse than dirty drivers bumping you off when it comes to DR. Nowadays almost half always seems to quit before the end, simply finishing the race already earns you DR lol.

Dirty drivers want to win, with dirty moves. Their goal is to win and to finish ahead of as much as they can.

The consequence of that should be high DR.

Drivers who quit before race ends are frustated drivers, some of them clean drivers who react to dirty drivers with dirty reactions. Some others are dirty drivers with bad ego and want to win in their dirty way.

 

[roamingbard13]

Dirty drivers want to win, with dirty moves. Their goal is to win and to finish ahead of as much as they can.

The consequence of that should be high DR.

I don't know. We had a guy on GTP pounding his chest a few weeks ago because he had over 1000 wins and a great win percentage and all this other stuff. Of course, when you looked at his KP, he reset his DR every time he got to DR B...so I think it does happen occasionally.

 

[oneloops]

I don't know. We had a guy on GTP pounding his chest a few weeks ago because he had over 1000 wins and a great win percentage and all this other stuff. Of course, when you looked at his KP, he reset his DR every time he got to DR B...so I think it does happen occasionally.

Yes, some people do that. But in general I don't see the dirtiest drivers winning races.

They use to get very inconsistent results.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

Dirty drivers want to win, with dirty moves. Their goal is to win and to finish ahead of as much as they can.

The consequence of that should be high DR.

Drivers who quit before race ends are frustated drivers, some of them clean drivers who react to dirty drivers with dirty reactions.

Dirty drivers quit if they don't win, try again next race using the DR and SR loss to get better chances. Check their total / finished ratio. Also notice how often they get their DR reset (or do it themselves intentionally).

PD enables win it all cost by granting you easier races for any SR or DR loss.

Al lot of quits are not from clean drivers reacting dirty. Those are the ones that stay and get their revenge. Most of the quits are from dirty drivers realizing they failed at this race and fell behind, or clean drivers getting frustrated by the behavior in the room. Half the time when I get bumped off by someone who then crashes himself off end up quitting. The opportunities for revenge are very few since 90% of the time they either crash by themselves or while taking out the next car (who doesn't try to avoid)

If you want to see the worst of the worst, check out this profile
https://www.kudosprime.com/gts/stats.php?profile=1194725
Atm he's SR.S again (94)

 

[oneloops]

Dirty drivers quit if they don't win, try again next race using the DR and SR loss to get better chances. Check their total / finished ratio. Also notice how often they get their DR reset (or do it themselves intentionally).

PD enables win it all cost by granting you easier races for any SR or DR loss.

Al lot of quits are not from clean drivers reacting dirty. Those are the ones that stay and get their revenge. Most of the quits are from dirty drivers realizing they failed at this race and fell behind, or clean drivers getting frustrated by the behavior in the room. Half the time when I get bumped off by someone who then crashes himself off end up quitting. The opportunities for revenge are very few since 90% of the time they either crash by themselves or while taking out the next car (who doesn't try to avoid)

If you want to see the worst of the worst, check out this profile
https://www.kudosprime.com/gts/stats.php?profile=1194725
Atm he's SR.S again (94)

In general dirty people are very easy to detect at SR S. There is always someone but they don't disturb me so much. I use to give them an extra security margin and I can race normaly the most of times.

A better penalty system should avoid dirty drivers arrive at SR S. But with a little of attention and skill managing risk it's not a very big problem in my opinion. I think that focusing more in zero contact per race would make people less frustrated about penaltys.

 

[Krypton78]

There are so many "players" with such Kudosprime curves but PD gives a … to ban them. It's not the dirty drivers fault. He is dirty, thats it. You can't blame a rat of being a rat and infecting you with bacteria.
No, it's PD's fault not to get rid of them. They want to keep even the dirtiest and worst idiots at the game. Thats the problem. There would be so many ways to clean the races up:

- shared and very hard penalties, since obviously its not possible to make the penalty system run well
- pit stop drive-through-penaltys
- heavy misbehaving-penalties aply for the next race also-> starting from behind with delay
- ban for an amount of time
and and and

But PD doesn't care. All they want are high participiant numbers. They're genious in technical stuff but all in all they are just stupid. I came to the conclusion that its just that simple.

As far as I know, they even don't even listen to the live event participants -who even suffer more then us due to the broken FIA point system and DR-cap- and just telling them to shut up finally, more or less.

 

[GOTMAXPOWER]

I've reached A+ 4 or 5 times as well, sure it's possible driving clean. I even almost reached A+ without qualifying, I actually saw @GOTMAXPOWER do it on his alt account with a broken penalty system. That doesn't mean the system is anywhere near ok. Actually starting from the back, the dirtier the drivers in the race, the higher you can climb up easily since they'll be taking cars out left and right and each other and you can easily drive by. The fact that I can climb up so easily from the back proves there are too many dirty drivers in SR.S abusing the system.

We had cleaner races without penalties, most times if you were being hit off then it meant you had done something to them. Recently everybody is driving angry because of the unjust penalties. It feels worse because they showed us that great system for 2 weeks then took it away.

I still haven't done a qualifying lap on that account, the stats are quite funny on some tracks:
https://www.kudosprime.com/gts/stats.php?profile=10413751
https://www.gran-turismo.com/us/gtsport/user/profile/10413751/history/courseStats

 

[I-Runner]

..., or clean drivers getting frustrated by the behavior in the room.

This happened to me yesterday @ willow spring..
3 races and 3 times "wrecked" out gaining few seconds of penalty (in addition to the damage... the insult).

I was so "🤬🤬🤬 " that the only thing to do was quit the race ...

[ironic mode ON]
The last "downgrade" to the penalty sysTem is a succes.. 👍
[ironic mode OFF]

IR

 

[Sven Jurgens]

We had cleaner races without penalties, most times if you were being hit off then it meant you had done something to them. Recently everybody is driving angry because of the unjust penalties. It feels worse because they showed us that great system for 2 weeks then took it away.

I still haven't done a qualifying lap on that account, the stats are quite funny on some tracks:
https://www.kudosprime.com/gts/stats.php?profile=10413751
https://www.gran-turismo.com/us/gtsport/user/profile/10413751/history/courseStats

Average overall ranking variation on that account -11.40

Awesome, keep it up

 

[fastone371]

Dirty drivers quit if they don't win, try again next race using the DR and SR loss to get better chances. Check their total / finished ratio. Also notice how often they get their DR reset (or do it themselves intentionally).

PD enables win it all cost by granting you easier races for any SR or DR loss.

Al lot of quits are not from clean drivers reacting dirty. Those are the ones that stay and get their revenge. Most of the quits are from dirty drivers realizing they failed at this race and fell behind, or clean drivers getting frustrated by the behavior in the room. Half the time when I get bumped off by someone who then crashes himself off end up quitting. The opportunities for revenge are very few since 90% of the time they either crash by themselves or while taking out the next car (who doesn't try to avoid)

If you want to see the worst of the worst, check out this profile
https://www.kudosprime.com/gts/stats.php?profile=1194725
Atm he's SR.S again (94)

That account speaks volumes about what garbage Polyphony's current penalty system is, this POS never reached SR S until a few weeks ago when the penalty system became the worst, he spent more time at SR E than all other SR's combined, how is it even possible to drive that poorly with that many races ran, clearly he must be a frustrated 12 year old.

In general dirty people are very easy to detect at SR S. There is always someone but they don't disturb me so much. I use to give them an extra security margin and I can race normaly the most of times.

A better penalty system should avoid dirty drivers arrive at SR S. But with a little of attention and skill managing risk it's not a very big problem in my opinion. I think that focusing more in zero contact per race would make people less frustrated about penaltys.

My guess is that the reason you do not have trouble with dirty drivers is because you are faster than average, if you start near the front and can make through the first couple of corners you wont have any problems because you get to race with other like minded and skilled drivers. If you were DR B speed my guess is that you would find the racing much dirtier and more difficult to avoid, theres not much defensive driving you can do when you have a missile aiming for you in a braking zone but not to worry, with Polyphony's current penalty system you will get the penalty if you are hit by that wayward missile.

 

[Bloodytears]

I don't feel at all powerless toward those who compete in an unfair way in GTS.

I did my test if a could go up from 18000 to 42000 points and dirty drivers haven't stopped me to go up. I raced always clean and I like close racing without contact. Maybe 2 or 3 races of 10 they have stop me a little... but that happens in real racing too, other drivers mistakes or bad intentions can ruin you some races, it's part of the risk.

In some multiples crashes in real racing the one less guilty has the harder consequences. You can see the video up about f1 crashes, there are a lot of innocent drivers getting off the race by others actions. Real racing is not about justice but about unpredictable consequences and high risk very often.

If the system was broken the dirtiest drivers should be at the top of DR points and that is not the case. Some injustice and unpredictable consequences in crashes is not broken, that happens in real racing too.

The penalty system has a lot to improve but it doesn't ruin as much races as people say... that people make very often 10 crashes or contacts by race and they complain about 2 or 3 of them that have the worst consequences on them... the goal is zero contact, not 10 crashes per race and 10 fair consequences per race.

Let's say one out of ten doesn't see people pushing eachother the whole time. Yes I can run accident free, but this alas doesn't make races infront of me any clearer. I have saw a guy destroyed my rival on Suzuka going full speed at Casio triangle, at mixed S, A and A+ lobby just two days ago.

 

[GTP_TO Blue]

The system can be improved, but making it a 100% justice system is an erreur : zero risk for others mistakes.

Hilarious in my opinion would be no consequences for anyone after a crash.
Consequences have not to be the same for both after a crash, neither they have to be 100% predictable.

No contact, no crash = 0 penaltys, people don't understand this yet...
If you are involved in an incident you have to asume hard consequences, even if it's not your fault.

In people complaining I see very often not enough care avoiding contact. This is the main problem in my opinion, we all have to work on this,
... instead of crashing 10 times per race and complaining about 5 penaltys of them.

Look how many non-justice consequences there are in real racing, very often innocent drivers get hard or harder punishment than guilty drivers :

Bugger, I thought I'd blocked you after the last round of nonsense.

 

[GOTMAXPOWER]

Average overall ranking variation on that account -11.40

Awesome, keep it up

The numbers are a bit exaggerated by playing in American lobbies at European time, you get lots of low DR grid fillers.

 

[oneloops]

Let's say one out of ten doesn't see people pushing eachother the whole time. Yes I can run accident free, but this alas doesn't make races infront of me any clearer. I have saw a guy destroyed my rival on Suzuka going full speed at Casio triangle, at mixed S, A and A+ lobby just two days ago.

That kind of moves use to be preceded by other dirty fights among them... or, sometimes, a previous non intentional mistake misunderstood as a intentional dirty action... and then revenge...

Ok, that shouldn't be possible to do in GTS, but you can't avoid that at 100% in any other game or sim... or at least it can be done in a subtle way with the same consequence.

If we all keep focus on zero contact it would be less people pushing each other. We use to react too much, there is an important responsability in all of us on this subjet. This doesn't mean that the penalty system must not to be improved, yes it must.

 

[Bloodytears]

That kind of moves use to be preceded by other dirty fights among them.

Ok, that shouldn't be possible to do in GTS, but you can't avoid that at 100% in any other game or sim... or at least it can be done in a subtle way with the same consequence.

If we all keep focus on zero contact it would be less people pushing each other. We react too much, there is an important responsability in all of us on this subjet. This doesn't mean that the penalty system must not to be improved, yes it must.

In other sims, the only comes to mind Project Cars with damage. This one not also claims official FIA game and free to be destruction derby. As long as I'm aware PC has very easy penalty system, and it's not force you to serve it on straights, infront of a pack of yet to be champions.

 

[oneloops]

Strong Damage on, in daily races could be good.

I'm sure that people would continue to complain (maybe even more than now), because that is a part of their personality.
But I'd like to see how it goes at least one week.

 

[Gr8_Lakes]

Strong Damage on, in daily races could be good.

I'm sure that people would continue to complain (maybe even more than now), because that is a part of their personality.
But I'd like to see how it goes at least one week.

Never going to see it happen. Why? Because participation numbers would plummet.

Personally, I’d LOVE a system that incorporated damage - even if it was just performance reductions - but remained until race finish. It would completely solve the intentional contact problem. But, while the true enthusiasts would be happy to participate in a truly competitive and “consequential” environment, it’s my opinion that there’s simply not enough disciplined drivers to sustain high numbers of participation with damage. Worse yet, I think reckless or unskilled drivers would blame others for undeserved damage, before admitting they aren’t able to survive five to seven laps without significant damage by their own doing. And this would be their excuse for not racing. Either way, participation numbers would likely dwindle to a much lower percentage of what races are now. And of course, PD will only measure success based on participation numbers. It’s unfortunate really, I’d love the opportunity to race in Sport races with damage on. And creating lobbies with damage on is one of the best ways to minimize the number of people that will join.

 

[Bloodytears]

I'm sure that people would continue to complain (maybe even more than now), because that is a part of their personality.

One thing is to be sure about, all dirty and clean drivers are people, and rules have been made to make clear what is wrong and what is not. Currently game couldn't determine what wrong a player, a racer has done on track. Penalty system is another bop, just for a driver. Agree, you can't balance performances in uncertain way, the same you couldn't punish people without clear reason. Balance of performance also not ideal in this game either, so in current state it's unfinished asset of a sport discipline, that gets absolutely fair complains.

 

[aleps45]

.

 

[GTP_TO Blue]

@aleps45 , your response has to be in English.

 

[aleps45]

@aleps45 , your response has to be in English.

.. yes everything is very nice, damage, positive thinking 0 contacts etc.etc. I speak for myself, the problem is not the incorrect drivers, those will always be there, they cannot be eliminated from the game, do you think that any of these stupid interests if you race and damage the car because of its incorrectness? Meanwhile ruin your race and then who cares .. The problem for me now are these random penalties that come to innocent honest drivers, who have the only fault of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Honestly, I am of little interest if an unclean driver is punished after ruining my race. I accept unclean drivers, I accept that they hinder, I accept that they hit me to pass, but I cannot accept that the system also gives me penalties after suffering damage. I try in every way to avoid contacts within the limits of my abilities, and on more than one occasion I have returned the position if I thought I had taken it in a dirty way, at this level my correctness arrives, so I cannot check the people and their attitudes, but in a playful event there must be an external system that protects my right to peaceful fun, so it is not a complaint against those who are incorrect, but a complaint against those who should set limits. At this point I, who am honest, can compete even without an active penalty system, which would certainly be better than this random clowning that is now.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

Never going to see it happen. Why? Because participation numbers would plummet.

Personally, I’d LOVE a system that incorporated damage - even if it was just performance reductions - but remained until race finish. It would completely solve the intentional contact problem. But, while the true enthusiasts would be happy to participate in a truly competitive and “consequential” environment, it’s my opinion that there’s simply not enough disciplined drivers to sustain high numbers of participation with damage. Worse yet, I think reckless or unskilled drivers would blame others for undeserved damage, before admitting they aren’t able to survive five to seven laps without significant damage by their own doing. And this would be their excuse for not racing. Either way, participation numbers would likely dwindle to a much lower percentage of what races are now. And of course, PD will only measure success based on participation numbers. It’s unfortunate really, I’d love the opportunity to race in Sport races with damage on. And creating lobbies with damage on is one of the best ways to minimize the number of people that will join.

Haha yep. That was my experience in GT5, 80% quit before the end of the race, why race on with damage. Then since it's a lobby, lobby done after the race. Participation numbers have artificially gone up the worse the penalty system got. Don't want to get your DR/SR damaged for FIA, make an alt account for sport mode or for casual racing during the bad hours. That one getting too precious, make another. Driving getting too crap in your own region, make some more accounts to try your luck in other regions.

@aleps45 Yep it was better without any penalties. The rooms started self policing to call out and eventually working together to kick out the bad apples. Now everyone quickly leaves after a race.

Btw, something has changed. Normally when you get a penalty it's a red S for race B. -10 SR for a penalty and +5 SR or so for a race B. Just now I got tapped by a car re-entering the track (touched my rear bumper no effect) for a 1 sec penalty and got a neutral S at the end. I need to check how much SR is worth in race B now, or if the negative SR for penalties has been reduced.

I guess the negative SR has been reduced. That one race I linked with 4 penalties should have dropped me from SR.B to SR.E, instead I ended up with 35 SR or so. Less than 20 SR loss for 4 penalties.

Yep still +5 for race B, thus a penalty is now -5 instead of -10 SR.
(It's actually +6 for race B, I went off once missing a sector in that race, which is the same when you get a penalty)
Anyway PDs goal seems to be to get everyone in SR.S lol.

 

[BaareCZ]

Bugger, I thought I'd blocked you after the last round of nonsense.

Right? I don't get it. It's like talking to a wall. It's all so easy with this guy. If someone takes you out, it's because you're an idiot who doesn't know how to avoid contact. He's in complete control in any situation at any time. He's dodging dive bombs left and right like it's nothing. He can see you coming for him from 10 miles away. He knows exactly what everyone on the track is going to do at any given time. Man, I wish I were that good.

 

[elston87]

Too many players are too aggressive and/or anxious to make overtakes and the game is rewarding them for doing so, at least it feels like that. I'm staying away from Race B at Big Willow this week; two races there was more than enough to push me away. I'm slowing down to give players ahead of me, who are struggling to keep their vehicle on the course, some space to hopefully recover, because there isn't a gap for me to safely overtake them. Meanwhile players behind me are seeing this as an invitation to barge on past me, and that I'm supposed to just give up my position and give way to them, nevermind the players ahead of me. Both races I participated in, I was punted off the course into dead last, with the punters not receiving a penalty for their actions.

Players aren't getting punished appropriately for driving aggressively and not reading the situation ahead of them. When they go full throttle for an overtake by any means necessary, others get their race ruined while they continue to race away, free of any penalty. Braking extremely late and using another player as a wall to help them corner? No penalty. Punting a player off at the final turn of Big Willow, regardless of the situation ahead? No penalty.

SR S players who do this don't deserve their rating. The SR system needs a big refinement first, then penalty tweaks can be made.

 

[oneloops]

One thing is to be sure about, all dirty and clean drivers are people, and rules have been made to make clear what is wrong and what is not. Currently game couldn't determine what wrong a player, a racer has done on track. Penalty system is another bop, just for a driver. Agree, you can't balance performances in uncertain way, the same you couldn't punish people without clear reason. Balance of performance also not ideal in this game either, so in current state it's unfinished asset of a sport discipline, that gets absolutely fair complains.

I think that is very clear that GTS shows to players what is wrong : cutting track limits and crashing other cars or causing get off the track.

Yes, penaltys have to be more accurate, the system must be improve. I agree with you all.

But I think it's important to say that the penaltys consequences are not 100% predictable neither in GTS nor in real life because there is anothers paremeters : intention and non predictable consequences.

If all the penaltys were 100% predictables, players would play with the system. If a punted driver were never punished, players would provoque always to be punted in order to give a penalty to others.

With the actual system innocent drivers can get penaltys but none can use the system to get always profit... they can profit sometimes but most of times can't. So that's not the most effective way to win over others, the most effective way is racing clean and fast.

.. yes everything is very nice, damage, positive thinking 0 contacts etc.etc. I speak for myself, the problem is not the incorrect drivers, those will always be there, they cannot be eliminated from the game, do you think that any of these stupid interests if you race and damage the car because of its incorrectness? Meanwhile ruin your race and then who cares .. The problem for me now are these random penalties that come to innocent honest drivers, who have the only fault of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Honestly, I am of little interest if an unclean driver is punished after ruining my race. I accept unclean drivers, I accept that they hinder, I accept that they hit me to pass, but I cannot accept that the system also gives me penalties after suffering damage. I try in every way to avoid contacts within the limits of my abilities, and on more than one occasion I have returned the position if I thought I had taken it in a dirty way, at this level my correctness arrives, so I cannot check the people and their attitudes, but in a playful event there must be an external system that protects my right to peaceful fun, so it is not a complaint against those who are incorrect, but a complaint against those who should set limits. At this point I, who am honest, can compete even without an active penalty system, which would certainly be better than this random clowning that is now.

Look how many non-justice consequences there are in real racing, very often innocent drivers get hard or harder punishment than guilty drivers :

Real racing is more unfair than GTS with innocent drivers with the only fault to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

We have to accept that fatality sometimes happens. We need to be more stoics.

Never going to see it happen. Why? Because participation numbers would plummet.

Personally, I’d LOVE a system that incorporated damage - even if it was just performance reductions - but remained until race finish. It would completely solve the intentional contact problem. But, while the true enthusiasts would be happy to participate in a truly competitive and “consequential” environment, it’s my opinion that there’s simply not enough disciplined drivers to sustain high numbers of participation with damage. Worse yet, I think reckless or unskilled drivers would blame others for undeserved damage, before admitting they aren’t able to survive five to seven laps without significant damage by their own doing. And this would be their excuse for not racing. Either way, participation numbers would likely dwindle to a much lower percentage of what races are now. And of course, PD will only measure success based on participation numbers. It’s unfortunate really, I’d love the opportunity to race in Sport races with damage on. And creating lobbies with damage on is one of the best ways to minimize the number of people that will join.

I think that the solution of that problem could be activating damage only in SR S and giving more credits in SR S.

That would motivate many drivers to be cleaner and would keep dirty drivers out of SR S.

At the same time it would keep casual drivers or less skilled drivers interested in the game not frustating them with damage if they want to run out of SR S.

The actual penalty system is not good for participation numbers because of frustration of many drivers and a lot of fear to get unfair penaltys. For good participation numbers the penalty system should be more fair... but I think that it has to keep some unpredictable results in order to keep real risk.

 

[Bloodytears]

I think that is very clear that GTS shows to players what is wrong : cutting track limits and crashing other cars or causing get off the track.

Have you tried to read the post just above you? If you so sure, try to elibarate:
There 2 drivers, me and mister dirty X. We both approach a corner, me behind of him, and he takes inside defence line, me overtakes him on outside. We come to exit at same speed, that means he goes wide and push me off track. I'm receiving penalty for coilding and force another car off track and off track penalty as well. What should we both learn from this situation?

 

[Jagman XK8]

Too many players are too aggressive and/or anxious to make overtakes and the game is rewarding them for doing so, at least it feels like that. I'm staying away from Race B at Big Willow this week; two races there was more than enough to push me away. I'm slowing down to give players ahead of me, who are struggling to keep their vehicle on the course, some space to hopefully recover, because there isn't a gap for me to safely overtake them. Meanwhile players behind me are seeing this as an invitation to barge on past me, and that I'm supposed to just give up my position and give way to them, nevermind the players ahead of me. Both races I participated in, I was punted off the course into dead last, with the punters not receiving a penalty for their actions.

Players aren't getting punished appropriately for driving aggressively and not reading the situation ahead of them. When they go full throttle for an overtake by any means necessary, others get their race ruined while they continue to race away, free of any penalty. Braking extremely late and using another player as a wall to help them corner? No penalty. Punting a player off at the final turn of Big Willow, regardless of the situation ahead? No penalty.

SR S players who do this don't deserve their rating. The SR system needs a big refinement first, then penalty tweaks can be made.

In real life driving, you are invariably at fault if you hit the car in front of you, so natural behaviour is to leave sufficient space to allow for erratic driving ahead. The penalty for not following the 'code' is an insurance claim, higher premiums and your car in for repair with inevitable inconvenience as a result. Ultimately, lives are at risk, so even the boy racers have to abide by the rules, although some push their luck.

In GTS however, they can do what the hell they like and get away with it. The car magically reappears on the track and off they go again to cause more havoc. I agree with all your comments and my own view is that SR/S is far too easy to achieve, with the result that demolition boy, who has made others incur penalty, is in the same line up as serious drivers who want to drive cleanly and have a rewarding experience.

As said, I did well at Willow during the week and regained my DR/B by being high on the grid and escaping the destruction behind. I haven't been there since for the very reasons you state.

Surely it must be possible to develop a system whereby the hitter incurs the loss, particularly outside of a braking zone, where the penalty could be as much as disqualification?

 

[oneloops]

Have you tried to read the post just above you? If you so sure, try to elibarate:
There 2 drivers, me and mister dirty X. We both approach a corner, me behind of him, and he takes inside defence line, me overtakes him on outside. We come to exit at same speed, that means he goes wide and push me off track. I'm receiving penalty for coilding and force another car off track and off track penalty as well. What should we both learn from this situation?

Maybe you tried to close the line with extra turning the wheel and the system thinks you have caused the contact.
If not then the penalty is unfair.

Anyway, we have to accept unfair results and consequences sometimes. If all is fair there is zero risk and nothing to do with real racing, more to do with playing cards one with himself.

The "thing to learn" is : contact can have consequences for one or another, both have to try zero contact and unfair consequences like that sometimes happens in real racing, DNF after a crash of one can happens and FIA take it as "nobody's fault".
Zero contact is always the key, in real racing and in GTS.

Maybe in real racing you'd lift the throttle seeing more risk than in GTS and avoided that contact... In GTS we use to see less risks that they are in reality.

In the video with f1 crashes compilation there are many (or all of them) unfair consequences for innocent drivers. They accept that can happen, they are stoics.

The penalty system has to be improved and become a little more fair sometimes and maybe have given the penalty to your rival and not to you.

In real life driving, you are invariably at fault if you hit the car in front of you, so natural behaviour is to leave sufficient space to allow for erratic driving ahead.

In real life driving yes, but in real life racing no.
If the car ahead brakes too much or too early in order to slow you down that's unsportsmanlike, and not invariably the car behind's fault.

In real life racing we can't brake before the braking zone if we want to stop or distub our rivals, that's unsportsmanlike. That's why in GTS the punted driver can get a penalty, because if not, anyone could use this tip to block and slow down other drivers.
We have to accept some unfair consequences in GTS in order to avoid this "easy to do unsportsmanlike tip".

At the limit very often is hard to say who was wrong sometimes, so always one of them can say that the penalty was unfair.

Furthermore, I agree with you that the SR S is too easy to get and to maintain. It should be a lot more difficult to get, motivating more zero contact races.

 

[fastone371]

Maybe you tried to close the line with extra turning the wheel and the system thinks you have caused the contact.
If not then the penalty is unfair.

Anyway, we have to accept unfair results and consequences sometimes. If all is fair there is zero risk and nothing to do with real racing, more to do with playing cards one with himself.

The "thing to learn" is : contact can have consequences for one or another, both have to try zero contact and unfair consequences like that sometimes happens in real racing, DNF after a crash of one can happens and FIA take it as "nobody's fault".
Zero contact is always the key, in real racing and in GTS.

Maybe in real racing you'd lift the throttle seeing more risk than in GTS and avoided that contact... In GTS we use to see less risks that they are in reality.

In the video with f1 crashes compilation there are many (or all of them) unfair consequences for innocent drivers. They accept that can happen, they are stoics.

The penalty system has to be improved and become a little more fair sometimes and maybe have given the penalty to your rival and not to you.



In real life driving yes, but in real life racing no.
If the car ahead brakes too much or too early in order to slow you down that's unsportsmanlike, and not invariably the car behind's fault.

In real life racing we can't brake before the braking zone if we want to stop or distub our rivals, that's unsportsmanlike. That's why in GTS the punted driver can get a penalty, because if not, anyone could use this tip to block and slow down other drivers.
We have to accept some unfair consequences in GTS in order to avoid this "easy to do unsportsmanlike tip".

At the limit very often is hard to say who was wrong sometimes, so always one of them can say that the penalty was unfair.

Furthermore, I agree with you that the SR S is too easy to get and to maintain. It should be a lot more difficult to get, motivating more zero contact races.

In real life racing there are many nuances a driver can use to slow the car behind. Maybe he lifts off the accelerator and rolls thru the corner to change the following drivers timing, maybe he waits a little longer to pick up the gas on exit or slows a little more than usual at the apex. It's all about figuring out where the other car is weaker and yours is stronger but you can affect the other cars lap times while not technically doing anything wrong, even kids in karts use these techniques.

 

[oneloops]

In real life racing there are many nuances a driver can use to slow the car behind. Maybe he lifts off the accelerator and rolls thru the corner to change the following drivers timing, maybe he waits a little longer to pick up the gas on exit or slows a little more than usual at the apex. It's all about figuring out where the other car is weaker and yours is stronger but you can affect the other cars lap times while not technically doing anything wrong, even kids in karts use these techniques.

Even if it's subtle that is unsportmanslike.

You can be a honest driver and try to beat rivals being faster than them... or you can be not honest nor gentleman and try to win making them slow, blocking and bothering them... it's an ethics matter even if both can be allowed when subtled done it's difficult to demonstrate unsportmanslike intentions.

I prefer racing in a honest way, if someone is faster than me I can defend a line with a change of line once and not at the lastest moment and I don't try to block him nor making him going slower.