PENALTY SYSTEM IS STILL A PIECE OF ****!!!

[Groundfish]

Can somebody explain this one

You dive bombed, and hit the other car off.
Crap like that was why I only entered there once yesterday.

 

[GOTMAXPOWER]

You dive bombed, and hit the other car off.
Crap like that was why I only entered there once yesterday.

I know what I did, maybe being on the other end will teach them something about running people off the road. Anyway shared fault and all that...

I’m starting to believe it’s to do with rank as others have said before. It’s the only thing that would make sense.

edit: His contact on you, he was ahead. Your contact on him, he is also ahead. Could be that?

I'm pretty sure that plays a role but for this one we're both at 20k DR.

 

[Kermit_2142]

Yh I think it’s because you he was ahead on both occasions. I know your side by side for the first incident but he is ahead on the leaderboard

 

[Groundfish]

I know what I did, maybe being on the other end will teach them something about running people off the road

You are the one that initiated an overtake very very late round the outside against a player 30-50k DR below your ability.
No one expects that move there he’d have to slam the brakes..Now sure maybe in a 55-65 k lobby the awareness would be there, but basically you made a move that in reality was never going to work against a player half your dr and got yourself in trouble then blamed him and hit him off on the next corner.
Imo that should be a dq.

 

[cactus0]

Can somebody explain this one? Surely they're both penalties or both fine

My initial thought was maybe you didn't quite go off track, as your onside wheels were still on the kerb, whereas the other driver fully left the track. That's the only logical reason I could see.

 

[Kermit_2142]

You are the one that initiated an overtake very very late round the outside against a player 30-50k DR below your ability.
No one expects that move there he’d have to slam the brakes..Now sure maybe in a 55-65 k lobby the awareness would be there, but basically you made a move that in reality was never going to work against a player half your dr and got yourself in trouble then blamed him and hit him off on the next corner.
Imo that should be a dq.

Shouldn’t matter what the DR is. Rules are rules (he should leave space at that point) and should be the same for everyone. That’s half the problem with the penalty / sr system as a whole, the rules are constantly changing.

 

[Groundfish]

Shouldn’t matter what the DR is. Rules are rules (he should leave space at that point) and should be the same for everyone. That’s half the problem with the penalty / sr system as a whole, the rules are constantly changing.

There’s no reason for him to leave space relative to the GTS prescribed optimal line and turn in point.

It’s nuts to think the driver already turning in on the inside very close to the GTS defined racing line should slam his brakes and leave space from this position.
Jmo

 

[GOTMAXPOWER]

You are the one that initiated an overtake very very late round the outside against a player 30-50k DR below your ability.
No one expects that move there he’d have to slam the brakes..Now sure maybe in a 55-65 k lobby the awareness would be there, but basically you made a move that in reality was never going to work against a player half your dr and got yourself in trouble then blamed him and hit him off on the next corner.
Imo that should be a dq.

Does he need to expect a move when he can see a car half a cards length ahead on the outside, if you know a car is there then turn right that is deliberate and must be a penalty? I know my move deserved one but I can't see how it is any different to the other one, we both pushed a car off on the outside. One was punished the other was not.

 

[Kermit_2142]

There’s no reason for him to leave space relative to the GTS prescribed optimal line and turn in point.

View attachment 977980

It’s nuts to think the driver already turning in on the inside very close to the GTS defined racing line should slam his brakes and leave space from this position.
Jmo

He doesn’t need to brake any more, he has to not accelerate as he usually would and then not open the steering to allow Max the space he has earned.
I agree it’s a risky move but the rules still stand, if a driver is alongside, you cannot edge out that driver. It’s the only rule that’s actually in the sport mode video you have to watch.
I would have expected some light contact their as the driver could’ve been caught off guard and his line would need adjusting as you say, but he makes no attempt to give space and continues to run Max out.

Also not condoning Max’s retaliation but the question was - why the difference in the penalty decision?

 

[Groundfish]

I will never agree there. There’s ONE racing line. If you get your front bumper to the lead cars rear axle on the OUTSIDE AFTER the normal racing line turn in as shown in my photo above you’ve no right to space, you’re just being daft.
Jmo.

 

[HaydenFan69]

So in qualifying for the last Nations Cup, I had a car just back out on corner exit on the out lap. I murdered him. If there was BeamNG damage effects, I’d have ended up in the rear seats. It was the out lap so I wasn’t fully paying attention.

But no penalty. I mean he still did not crash, but I definitely hit him. I went from about 80 to 30 in a dozen feet.

 

[Kermit_2142]

I will never agree there. There’s ONE racing line. If you get your front bumper to the lead cars rear axle on the OUTSIDE AFTER the normal racing line turn in as shown in my photo above you’ve no right to space, you’re just being daft.
Jmo.

There’s clearly more than one line at that speed if one can run around the outside, and be ahead.

 

[Norrin Radd]

Does he need to expect a move when he can see a car half a cards length ahead on the outside, if you know a car is there then turn right that is deliberate and must be a penalty? I know my move deserved one but I can't see how it is any different to the other one, we both pushed a car off on the outside. One was punished the other was not.

When I first watched this I thought you had a point, but before he would see you, you slammed his side (OK slammed is a bit harsh) anyway his actions might not have been 100% great, but he wasn't the only one at fault in the first corner and then you take him out.
Now your reactions in the race are understandable, but look at it fairly now and you've got to see that he didn't deserve a penalty on the first corner or you both did.

 

[GOTMAXPOWER]

I will never agree there. There’s ONE racing line. If you get your front bumper to the lead cars rear axle on the OUTSIDE AFTER the normal racing line turn in as shown in my photo above you’ve no right to space, you’re just being daft.
Jmo.

There is one racing line but for racing you have to leave that, as you can see by the Hyundai leaving the line to defend the inside and compromising it's apex speed. If the lead car is dawdling on the inside you have every right to try going around the outside. But for the sake of argument let's agree that you can stick to the racing line regardless of who is around you, the first incident is no penalty which the game has got correct, why is the second one punishing the car on the correct racing line rather than the one which misses the apex by an entire cars width?

I honestly thought my penalty was deserved but I can see your point of view.

When I first watched this I thought you had a point, but before he would see you, you slammed his side (OK slammed is a bit harsh) anyway his actions might not have been 100% great, but he wasn't the only one at fault in the first corner and then you take him out.
Now your reactions in the race are understandable, but look at it fairly now and you've got to see that he didn't deserve a penalty on the first corner or you both did.

I think you have to make the distinction between consequential contact and non-consequential, the first was closer to leaning on the other car than hitting it so altered neither's trajectory, the second was pushing a car off the road. The incident at the next corner is a deserved pen in my opinion but an interesting comparison anyway.

btw the other driver didn't comment after the race and I'm not deliberately picking on him, the running people off at the exit is common (usually more in the top split lobbies).

 

[Kermit_2142]

When I first watched this I thought you had a point, but before he would see you, you slammed his side (OK slammed is a bit harsh) anyway his actions might not have been 100% great, but he wasn't the only one at fault in the first corner and then you take him out.
Now your reactions in the race are understandable, but look at it fairly now and you've got to see that he didn't deserve a penalty on the first corner or you both did.

I agree he probably over reacted to the slightest contact and for being done round the outside but he should’ve got a penalty imo just like Max did. “He hit me first” is no excuse in either drivers actions but penalties should be handed out in equal measure.

Also closing a door on someone is a lot different to running someone off track who is side by side.

 

[Norrin Radd]

I agree he probably over reacted to the slightest contact and for being done round the outside but he should’ve got a penalty imo just like Max did. “He hit me first” is no excuse in either drivers actions but penalties should be handed out in equal measure.

Also closing a door on someone is a lot different to running someone off track who is side by side.

This is why I think all contact should be a penalty for both. The system often gives the penalty to the wrong party and that just encourages people to ignore it and drive badly. I get really tempted sometimes to just ram anybody because my race has been ruined by an idiot that didn't get a penalty, but I don't although I do retaliate too often and sometimes in hindsight they weren't as bad as it felt at the time.

 

[GOTMAXPOWER]

This is why I think all contact should be a penalty for both. The system often gives the penalty to the wrong party and that just encourages people to ignore it and drive badly. I get really tempted sometimes to just ram anybody because my race has been ruined by an idiot that didn't get a penalty, but I don't although I do retaliate too often and sometimes in hindsight they weren't as bad as it felt at the time.

I think penalizing both is a bad move, penalizing neither worked much better when PD pressed the wrong button. The racing was fair and respectful, without the inconsistent penalties there seemed to be a lot less anger in the races and if incidents did happen they tended to police themselves.

 

[Groundfish]

why is the second one punishing the car on the correct racing line rather than the one which misses the apex by an entire cars width

It’s because the general rule of racing is that if you are not alongside enough at corner entrance it’s not your corner.
It’s the same issue in both cases.
The fact he was so wide was probably why the game was so generous and lenient in only giving one second for the “knocking him off”

 

[NoStopN]

edit: His contact on you, he was ahead. Your contact on him, he is also ahead. Could be that?

It would make plenty of sense. A black & white rule with no grey area. But if that were the case, scumbags would game it easily.

My initial thought was maybe you didn't quite go off track, as your onside wheels were still on the kerb, whereas the other driver fully left the track. That's the only logical reason I could see.

I looked at the video a few times. If there was any part of the left tires on the curb, it would have only been the tire decals. The tread was off. 99% of the time, that should/would earn the Hyundai a penalty for "forcing another car off track".

I would have expected some light contact their as the driver could’ve been caught off guard and his line would need adjusting as you say, but he makes no attempt to give space and continues to run Max out.

If you watch at the 4 second mark, you see the Hyundai jerk to the right. By jerk I mean releasing his left turn of the steering. The Hyundai suddenly moves toward Max. It was either someone on a controller who tried to quickly reset their thumb on the stick or someone who was trying to scare or push off a car that they knew was there. But, with the penalty system as quick to assign blame, even an accidental car motion has been given penalties. I would have expected a penalty if I was driving the Hyundai.

I will never agree there. There’s ONE racing line. If you get your front bumper to the lead cars rear axle on the OUTSIDE AFTER the normal racing line turn in as shown in my photo above you’ve no right to space, you’re just being daft.
Jmo.

Your recent assessments of people & their penalties leads me to believe that your rulebook has only 2 rules. Rule 1) The car in front in any situation is entitled to the racing line. 2) Any contact is the fault of the following car. At that point, there should be no online racing mode & the only online competition should be time trials.

Max, I agree that the retaliation was intentional. I'm not saying that it's unjustified. But I agree that the penalty system needs consistency. We still have people getting penalties where no reason is being given. As I mentioned before, if I was driving the Hyundai, I would have expected a penalty. If you really want to see the system in all of its broken glory, rewatch this clip from a couple of weeks ago. The Aston sideswipes me after I get wheelspin. When he does, I assist him into the grass. He gets 2 more penalty seconds.

 

[Kermit_2142]

This is why I think all contact should be a penalty for both. The system often gives the penalty to the wrong party and that just encourages people to ignore it and drive badly. I get really tempted sometimes to just ram anybody because my race has been ruined by an idiot that didn't get a penalty, but I don't although I do retaliate too often and sometimes in hindsight they weren't as bad as it felt at the time.

Your contradicting yourself a little Getting mad at someone who doesn’t get a penalty or gives you a penalty and ramming sounds very similar to “oh this guy just got me a shared fault penalty when I didn’t do anything, I’m going to ram him”

We all get heated, ramming does nothing but add to everyone else getting heated imo. Always best to check the reply, 9/10 it’s never as bad as it seemed.

Shared fault is a 👎 from me

 

[Norrin Radd]

I think penalizing both is a bad move, penalizing neither worked much better when PD pressed the wrong button. The racing was fair and respectful, without the inconsistent penalties there seemed to be a lot less anger in the races and if incidents did happen they tended to police themselves.

The problem there is that cheaters....cheat!!! Yes most people might play fair, but the few willing to abuse a no penalty system will win every time. It would be better than penalising the wrong player though, cos your angry you got hit and the you blow your top when you get hit with a penalty for it.

 

[Norrin Radd]

Your contradicting yourself a little Getting mad at someone who doesn’t get a penalty or gives you a penalty and ramming sounds very similar to “oh this guy just got me a shared fault penalty when I didn’t do anything, I’m going to ram him”

We all get heated, ramming does nothing but add to everyone else getting heated imo. Always best to check the reply, 9/10 it’s never as bad as it seemed.

Shared fault is a 👎 from me

No because it feels like your being picked on by the system for someone else's behaviour, whereas if everyone always gets penalised you just consider that part of the game and you only have the incident to be angry about.

 

[Groundfish]

Your recent assessments of people & their penalties leads me to believe that your rulebook has only 2 rules. Rule 1) The car in front in any situation is entitled to the racing line. 2) Any contact is the fault of the following car. At that point, there should be no online racing mode & the only online competition should be time trials

Uhh...Ok?
This is an important misunderstanding many people who race online have.
The whole whose at fault thing.
I take the general rule from the real world.
If you are not alongside enough at corner entry then it’s not your corner.
It’d be nice if GTS specified the amount of overlap needed for various classes as is done in real life in many cases.
Online people have invented a plethora of comically bad “personal ideas” about racing but those have nothing to do with anything in reality.
Some people believe anytime they overlap a car by even two inches that they are entitled to space. Lmao
Gts seems to me to work in agreement with real racing principle.

 

[Kermit_2142]

No because it feels like your being picked on by the system for someone else's behaviour, whereas if everyone always gets penalised you just consider that part of the game and you only have the incident to be angry about.

Blaming another driver for the system giving you a penalty by mistake is silly. It makes no difference if it’s shared fault or not it’s the system that gives the penalty not the player.

 

[Kermit_2142]

Uhh...Ok?
This is an important misunderstanding many people who race online have.
The whole whose at fault thing.
I take the general rule from the real world.
If you are not alongside enough at corner entry then it’s not your corner.
It’d be nice if GTS specified the amount of overlap needed for various classes as is done in real life in many cases.
Online people have invented a plethora of comically bad “personal ideas” about racing but those have nothing to do with anything in reality.
Some people believe anytime they overlap a car by even two inches that they are entitled to space. Lmao
Gts seems to me to work in agreement with real racing principle.

I believe the general rule and it’s not set in stone for any racing series is 300-400mm or a ft in old money. Basically enough that if you cut them off they will crash.
I agree with your point but Max is alongside and even ahead through most of the corner, he earned that space by being faster than the defending driver and should have been given the space he was occupying.
I agree with you most of the time but I think you should watch this one again 👍

 

[GOTMAXPOWER]

It’s because the general rule of racing is that if you are not alongside enough at corner entrance it’s not your corner.
It’s the same issue in both cases.

I don't think you can apply that 'rule' to the first incident since the overtaking car was on the outside line where you can brake later and carry speed deeper into the corner without risking anybody else's car, if that means you get to the middle of the corner ahead you have the right to remain on the track, as the general rule says "All the time you have to leave a space!". Also, how are you defining corner entrance? If it is turn in point my front bumper if pretty much at his door for the first corner.

Max, I agree that the retaliation was intentional. I

I'm not arguing that, it is interesting (and a bit concerning) to hear that some might consider it the Hyundai's fault for being off the racing line though.

The problem there is that cheaters....cheat!!! Yes most people might play fair, but the few willing to abuse a no penalty system will win every time. It would be better than penalising the wrong player though, cos your angry you got hit and the you blow your top when you get hit with a penalty for it.

I would've thought the same but the penalty system being turned off for that one week was a really interesting if accidental experiment. Giving the players the responsibility rather than relying on a penalty algorithm actually encouraged most people to tidy up their act and the racing was the cleanest I've ever seen on the game. As you said the wrong players being penalised causes more anger, taking that out of equation helps a lot.

Uhh...Ok?
This is an important misunderstanding many people who race online have.
The whole whose at fault thing.
I take the general rule from the real world.
If you are not alongside enough at corner entry then it’s not your corner.
It’d be nice if GTS specified the amount of overlap needed for various classes as is done in real life in many cases.
Online people have invented a plethora of comically bad “personal ideas” about racing but those have nothing to do with anything in reality.
Some people believe anytime they overlap a car by even two inches that they are entitled to space. Lmao
Gts seems to me to work in agreement with real racing principle.

I'm not sure there is a written rule on corner rights by anybody like the FIA because so many variables exist in each incident, it's stewards discretion.

 

[NoStopN]

The problem there is that cheaters....cheat!!! Yes most people might play fair, but the few willing to abuse a no penalty system will win every time. It would be better than penalising the wrong player though, cos your angry you got hit and the you blow your top when you get hit with a penalty for it.

A no penalty system makes it easy to dish out retaliation in an undeniable instance of contact. I've been pushed off before when there was only me & 1 other driver. Getting revenge when it is deserved reminds the pushers that crime doesn't pay.

No because it feels like your being picked on by the system for someone else's behaviour, whereas if everyone always gets penalised you just consider that part of the game and you only have the incident to be angry about.

I agree that shared fault is not a fair answer. Who wants to be penalized for a new driver that brakes too early going into a tricky corner? Who wants to be penalized for a new driver who is drafting so close that they miss their brake zone & push you off? Who wants to be penalized when someone else's controller battery dies?

Uhh...Ok?
This is an important misunderstanding many people who race online have.
The whole whose at fault thing.
I take the general rule from the real world.
If you are not alongside enough at corner entry then it’s not your corner.
It’d be nice if GTS specified the amount of overlap needed for various classes as is done in real life in many cases.

There are many disciplines of racing, from open wheel to full fenders. Most of the time, spotters help to alert the driver as to where another car is & if they are alongside enough to not allow them the racing line. With all of the maps & radar, that's the closest thing we have to a spotter. That is where a driver can tell if anyone is alongside. The problem is some drivers are unwilling to allow a car with a better exit or the slipstream to pass safely. The penalty system is designed to punish the unsafe drivers, but the penalty system doesn't have the proper programming to correctly hand out penalties. This is why rammers are getting away with murder & truly fair drivers are getting punished. I'd agree to turn off penalties altogether. At the very least, if GT Sport is the testbed for GT7, I hope PD can be much more accurate.

 

[Norrin Radd]

Blaming another driver for the system giving you a penalty by mistake is silly. It makes no difference if it’s shared fault or not it’s the system that gives the penalty not the player.

What does it matter if it's silly? People don't think logically at the best of times and when competing in any form sense totally flies out of the window. Also we know that there are people who abuse the system, last race I was brake checked, now the guy might have made a mistake but people know brake checking gives the guy behind 1 sec and usually there's nothing he can do about it. So both getting the penalty would stop this from happening deliberately and maybe the people doing it by mistake would learn....but I wouldn't hold my breath.

 

[Kermit_2142]

What does it matter if it's silly? People don't think logically at the best of times and when competing in any form sense totally flies out of the window. Also we know that there are people who abuse the system, last race I was brake checked, now the guy might have made a mistake but people know brake checking gives the guy behind 1 sec and usually there's nothing he can do about it. So both getting the penalty would stop this from happening deliberately and maybe the people doing it by mistake would learn....but I wouldn't hold my breath.

It’s silly because if I crash into you and you get a pen, I didn’t give you the penalty, the game decides that. Your grievance against me giving you a pen is silly because it’s not my fault the system is broken (you can be angry with me for crashing into you though obviously). If however we move to shared fault and I decide I don’t like you and bump you around on purpose so you get a penalty for every contact that you didn’t deserve, that would be my fault and your grievance against me would be fair.

There will always be dirty/cheating players in all levels. No penalty system will stop this even shared fault. The majority wants clean racing and for the most part we have that, I’m sure most incidents are mistakes or just over aggressiveness which is part of racing.

The majority don’t drive around trying to give others penalties, so why penalise all with shared fault when it is only the minority playing the system.

A lot seem to forget that other than those who are at world finals, and you could argue even them, we are all non professionals, people will make mistakes some minor and some major. If you assume people are just trying to have a fun time, and stop assuming everyone is dirty you might find that dirty drivers aren’t actually that common.

 

[sturk0167]

@GOTMAXPOWER I would've hit him harder. 👍 No question he pushed you off the track intentionally.
Of course, knocking him off the track isn't clean racing, but I don't care. It's about behavior modification.
"Eye for an eye" is fair racing.

I did it to someone this week, and in the following races, he cleaned up his act.