PENALTY SYSTEM IS STILL A PIECE OF ****!!!
- Thread starter Gareth davies
- 6,543 comments
- 448,734 views
- 1,875
- United States
Never once have I ever said that SR was NOT A PART OF THE SOLUTION just that in my opinion it was NOT THE ONLY and not necessarily IS IT THE MAIN PART.
You on the other hand have this attitude that the SR system is the holy grail and it will fix everything all on its own. I do not want to rehash our differences of opinion, we have spent plenty of wasted time doing that already but yes I do grow tired of continuing to read your same tired ideas over and over.
Also seeing that every time any other forum member brings up any suggestion or idea how is if it is not along your almighty thoughts that it is all SR or nothing you immediately dismiss those ideas as will not work or a waste of time.
The comedy here is you and your closed thought process and thinking your idea is above everyone else period.
What I guess I really want to know who the hell died and left you boss on the subject over everyone else?
- 2,677
- UK
- Outspacer
I have never claimed SR is the holy grail or anything as melodramatic. Just that I think it's the first thing that should be fixed, since matchmaking depends on it so much. I simply try to explain why I think that. Anyway, I won't change my view just because you don't like it!
Sure, I tried to steer our discussion into areas that might be more productive, but you were having none of it. That wasn't me being dismissive, just accepting where we have a difference of opinion and wanting to leave it at that - none of us wants "yes it is" "no it isn't" arguments.
I argue my case, as you argued yours. Nothing makes me 'boss' and saying that is just an attempt to get me to stop posting about it. Good luck with that.
Last edited:
- 962
- Phoenix Az.
- HuddyBob
I was just about to note that several of the people dissatisfied are also those whose Dr/Sr are on a roller coaster ride.
That leads me to think they may not be as clean/tidy/cautions/aware as they believe they are.
Having watched many of the videos I've noticed many people barge into situations unfolding that offer a high probability of doom... many times I'm thinking, cripe, why would you not hold off and wait for a better opportunity? Just too much risk...
EDIT to add: to be fair, several videos make me cringe at the "ineffectiveness of the system".
I was about to inquire, where are all the people who maintain their ratings?
What are their perceptions of the new penalty system?
I've not had the opportunity to race in months, but your post gives me hope that it's not as bad as noted throughout this thread, for folks that are not on a perpetual risk taking roller coaster.
- 94
- Buenos Aires
- ORMA_Ofuscor
I think your ideas have flaws that you can't see or accept and you dismiss other people as not understanding them.
A couple of problems, first you are dividing playerbase which in the americas region isn't that big and matchmaking has problems with very different Drs being matched. Then take into account blocking, also exploiting blocking to get wins or poles. For senna and schumacher achievements for example or for the sake of it, even to try and take their first win. Once the people know how a system works there will always be people trying to game it.
The very definition of clean driver. Some may not be that clean still think they are. Also since they made an honest mistake may not want to give a place back. Clean an honorable are not the same thing.
Dirty drivers still entering the clean races. Why? Because no one is ever going to rage about being taken out in a dirty room. Maybe some think clean players are faster and want to try and beat them or take them out for being "try hards".
All this in a penalty free environment. Say hello to even more agressive circuit cutting.
From a franchise standpoint it would not be very good for the sport mode which wants to present itself as a serious esport backed by Fia to have an official Dirty sport mode. Also the image of Gran turismo itself as the "real driving simulator". I am not buying their tagline but they are still pushing it that way.
For the reasons stated above and specially the last one I don't think we will ever see official Clean/Dirty sport mode.
Please don't take it personal.
- 1,435
- Kansas City/MO/US
- BallPtPenTheif
- BallPtPenTheif
I had similar observations and honestly, I think that's the key to the SR system is just making it work consistently so that players can naturally learn how it wants them to drive. After consistency, being "fair" should be the next goal. At a minimum though, finding a baseline standard for these two variables should be worked out first before adding additional variables to the penalty equation. So far they seem to have the consistency figured out even if it favors barge passing right now.
- 6,764
- Ontario
- SvennoJ
- SvenZ
You admit to being a little dirty, yet it works better now because you get away with it. Which pretty much confirms the observation that this change has been made for the super star players at the cost of everyone else. Bumping people off and barge passing now goes mostly undetected.
However you also got lucky so far, I've been tapped from behind and gotten a penalty. I've been bumped or pushed into a shortcut and ended up with a penalty that way. I've been brake checked and gotten a penalty. Dirty blocked, gotten a penalty, been the 3rd party when two cars in front bumping each other suddenly cause a stall with no way out with cars behind me for that nice 10 sec penalty.
Suprisingly the daily A in the KTM worked the best yesterday, the only penalty I got there, despite getting bumped plenty times, was from an accident right in front of me that I could not avoid with a car right on my bumper. 10 sec for a slight tap of a car sideways on the road.
Race B however was utter chaos, I don't think any penalty system could have made sense of that.
Race C worked as well, even the T1 heroes and chaos did not give me penalties. However all the little bumps from other people that are judged in your favor still add to SR deductions and since I was coming from 59 after 1 race B and one disconnect from race C, it took a long time to get back up. It's fine when you're already at 99 and have a nice big SR budget to bump people with.
The penalties that still go wrong are when someone else messes up, bumps you into another car or becomes an instant unavoidable obstacle while racing in a pack. So don't race in a pack right. Not everyone has the luxury of starting at the top!
Overall it's not better nor worse. 10 sec penalties are still too easy to get for no good reason yet not getting a penalty for getting rammed (most of the time) is an improvement. Not getting penalties for slight accidental contact without consequences is a great improvement, however it's still possible to get a penalty from someone bouncing off you, and bumping people off without penalties has a high success rate. There are less penalty serving car obstacles on the road now which is better, however penalty server blocking is still the same.
So sure, start top 3, race at the front and the experience is likely better as you don't have to descend to the backfield while 'accidentally' rubbing other cars. Race in the back and you're fair game to dirty blockers and bump passers.
- 109
- Humphrey_Bogus
I'm not sure if this belongs in the whining and crying thread... but here goes...
I'm getting race altering penalties for doing nothing but racing... I know the game can't work out if a hit is malicious or just part of racing but check out these two examples... a car that's ghosting becomes solid right at the wrong times on both occasions....
10 second penalty given here (which ruined my finish as it was such a tight pack):
5 second penalty given here:
What am I to do, give up any challenging racing....?
Speaking of which... this is an example of how clean I (try) to keep it from the same Megane race above.... I don't want to screw up other people's races... or my own, I will give up position for a clearly faster driver or feather throttle to avoid a bump etc... it's just who I am... plus Karma is always watching.
I'm getting race altering penalties for doing nothing but racing... I know the game can't work out if a hit is malicious or just part of racing but check out these two examples... a car that's ghosting becomes solid right at the wrong times on both occasions....
10 second penalty given here (which ruined my finish as it was such a tight pack):
5 second penalty given here:
What am I to do, give up any challenging racing....?
Speaking of which... this is an example of how clean I (try) to keep it from the same Megane race above.... I don't want to screw up other people's races... or my own, I will give up position for a clearly faster driver or feather throttle to avoid a bump etc... it's just who I am... plus Karma is always watching.
- 6,764
- Ontario
- SvennoJ
- SvenZ
Today I had the opposite on Big Willow. I had a late braker right behind me for over a lap already and was coming up on a group in front. Now I have to gamble how much room I leave for the group in front while not giving the late braker an easy dive. I slightly misjudge, the last car in the pack starts braking a little early to set up a fast corner exit and cuts in to the apex, I tap him messing up his faster exit, backed off to the side, let the car behind me pass and expected a penalty. It didn't come. I clearly hit his rear left panel and he could have spun out. No Karma either as the late braker started braking too late without me in front of him and drove himself into the desert. The car I bumped got bumped by someone else later and he received a penalty for that. We both apologized, yet he had 5 sec and an undeserved red S.
Perhaps I had Karma to spend as in the previous race I got bump passed and bumped off the road by another car that ended without penalties and with a blue S. Simply turning certain slight contact penalties off isn't fixing anything.
Perhaps I had Karma to spend as in the previous race I got bump passed and bumped off the road by another car that ended without penalties and with a blue S. Simply turning certain slight contact penalties off isn't fixing anything.
- 3,954
- Laguna
- Alpha_Cipher1
Am I seriously the only one who haven't had a bad experience with the penalties yet?
I guess I'm a dirty driver
I guess I'm a dirty driver
- 6,764
- Ontario
- SvennoJ
- SvenZ
Looking at your stats for the USA I can tell you why
https://www.gran-turismo.com/us/gtsport/user/profile/5797111/history/courseStats
Only 93 sport races, avg start position 1.6, 62% laps lead, 60% win rate, 90% top 5. Have you even driven in the back field?!
Sure, qualify until you start in the top 3, be one of the fastest drivers, only pick races you feel certain about, no wonder you don't have a bad experience yet
- 786
- United States
In the meantime, there is SNAIL and GTP WRS...
Just in case anyone finally realizes the futility of automated stewarding.
Or is it more fun to endlessly whine about something you all know in your heart of hearts will NEVER work fairly? The most laughable thing about this entire thread is that we all knew that WRS and SNAIL (and rooms run under their rule system) was the only way to get clean racing up until GTS.
And still is. And always will be.
If computerized stewarding worked, the FIA would use it. They don't. Argument closed, you're welcome...
Now go race in a SNAIL room or WRS and realize how badly you've been duped by Sport Mode.
Just in case anyone finally realizes the futility of automated stewarding.
Or is it more fun to endlessly whine about something you all know in your heart of hearts will NEVER work fairly? The most laughable thing about this entire thread is that we all knew that WRS and SNAIL (and rooms run under their rule system) was the only way to get clean racing up until GTS.
And still is. And always will be.
If computerized stewarding worked, the FIA would use it. They don't. Argument closed, you're welcome...
Now go race in a SNAIL room or WRS and realize how badly you've been duped by Sport Mode.
- 3,954
- Laguna
- Alpha_Cipher1
Oh don't look at my US stats, it's ny stress relief account. I also haven't played there yet with the new penalty system. Here's my Asia Stats:Looking at your stats for the USA I can tell you why
https://www.gran-turismo.com/us/gtsport/user/profile/5797111/history/courseStats
Only 93 sport races, avg start position 1.6, 62% laps lead, 60% win rate, 90% top 5. Have you even driven in the back field?!
Sure, qualify until you start in the top 3, be one of the fastest drivers, only pick races you feel certain about, no wonder you don't have a bad experience yet
https://www.gran-turismo.com/us/gtsport/user/profile/4106423/history/driverStats
I've been running less and less dailies recently, and I've become more of a midfield alien fodder now so there's always action up close and personal. There's many side-by-side situations as well as slight bumps here and there that result in 0 penalties.
I'll go to the US region and do some no-quali races to see how it goes
- 6,764
- Ontario
- SvennoJ
- SvenZ
Average starting position 3.14 is still quite up there! My avg is 8.8!
191 daily races total in Asia, I've probably done that many since the penalty update
(sitting at home with a bad back, been racing a lot the past week)Bumps that result in zero penalties are no good either, I got driven into the wall a couple times tonight on Tokyo, lose a bunch of positions, attacker usually goes free. Only once did I get a penalty for getting rammed into a wall, so that is an improvement. Though it would be better if the aggressor actually got the penalty!
Anyway racing in the top lobbies was pretty clean overall tonight. Since everyone is keeping an eye on the fuel map instead of the radar stuff can happen. At least the deliberate punters got penalties, unfortunately also innocent victims received them, One race I was bumped into another car by someone trying to squeeze through. The car I got bumped into received a 10 sec penalty.
- 483
- London
Best definition in this thread by far
Best criticism in this thread by far
Simple answer: they are training to be better, not like a lot of moaners here.
I entered this thread because I thought I'd find some reports of glitches in the penalty system, but it isn't the case, this is just 95% moaning... and I'm allergic to moaning, so I'm off. If all the moaners here invested half of the time they expend posting in some deep training they would be way faster.
For what is worth, I report my glitch: yesterday at Brands Hatch, Hawthorn corner, I had the racing lane and got side kicked from the inside and out of track. Received 10 seconds penalty. I was #2 and finished #7 (since I qualified 17, I still consider it a good result).
I wonder if: since the change in the system was in the server side and was before blue moon, it only affected some tracks, because I remember not having problems at all in Blue Moon, but in the other tracks the silly errors in penalties persist.
PS: for the moaners, work in your resilience. Do some research about the subject, find inspirational TEDtalks, read a book about it, do something. What is holding you back is the moaning, you should be focused in the race, in your relationship with your car and the track. If you go out, keep racing; if they hit you, keep racing; if you have a puncture, keep racing. Work in your resilience, so much moaning is starting to be embarrassing.
- 3,954
- Laguna
- Alpha_Cipher1
So following up on my previous posts, I've done the last couple of races at Maggiore starting from last, in the US region. I'm uploading the replay, but all of these had 0 penalties at all. I believe I'm very aggressive in those races, since I did gain 8 and 7 positions respectively. I had multiple side-by-side and lunge situations, all of which gave out no penalty.
So what's my judgement? The penalty system can indeed create racing spectacles. It has enough leeway to do so. It's not perfect however, I know that. At L3T1 in my second video, someone was turning into me at the home straight, which I think should result in maybe a 0.2 second penalty. It's annoying, and maybe dirty, but nothing bad really came out of it. I tried to keep holding my line, but at the braking zone I turned too much and went slightly diagonally onto his side, ruining his line and relegating him to the outside. I was at fault, and I believe I should've gotten a 1 second penalty for it.
An automated penalty system will never be perfect, but for one to be this good that it can allow spectacles is already an achievement. Just race knowing that this system is not perfect, and know what it takes to have a clean race, and you're golden.
So what's my judgement? The penalty system can indeed create racing spectacles. It has enough leeway to do so. It's not perfect however, I know that. At L3T1 in my second video, someone was turning into me at the home straight, which I think should result in maybe a 0.2 second penalty. It's annoying, and maybe dirty, but nothing bad really came out of it. I tried to keep holding my line, but at the braking zone I turned too much and went slightly diagonally onto his side, ruining his line and relegating him to the outside. I was at fault, and I believe I should've gotten a 1 second penalty for it.
An automated penalty system will never be perfect, but for one to be this good that it can allow spectacles is already an achievement. Just race knowing that this system is not perfect, and know what it takes to have a clean race, and you're golden.
- 483
- London
Sorry, I couldn't help myself... I tried, but i couldn't...
- 3,954
- Laguna
- Alpha_Cipher1
Videos:
- 1,632
- UK
- YT__TJCGAMING
No disrespect meant, but these 2 incidents were avoidable in my opinion. You just keep to your line and didn't brake to avoid the crash in the first. It was obvious to me you were going to hit the other driver so the game has penalised you for the contact as you were behind. In a real race a driver in real life would've done anything to avoid a race ending contact. And it was obvious by the cars lack of control that correction was needed
In the second you must've seen the other driver on your radar and had a rough idea where he was. Yes he cut the corner and slammed into you, but again you had no awareness of the driver, even when he rejojned it seems, and just kept your line and speed.
So as controversial as that might sound you have to avoid these contacts in game. Just as in real racing situations.
- 1,435
- Kansas City/MO/US
- BallPtPenTheif
- BallPtPenTheif
The lead driver lost control and you didn't lift on the throttle which resulted in you ramming him. This is pretty straight forward and your fault, so the penalty makes sense.
The other driver went off course and he's clearly going to come back on. Your exit line should have moved you to the outside in time for him to safely reenter but for some reason you hug the apex later than normal and block his re-entry route. In the real world, there's no question that it's his fault as a driver off course should only re-enter once it's safe. PD's system however will give you the penalty for blocking the exit line, which you shouldn't have been doing anyways. In this instance his foul is far greater than yours.
From an accident/penalty avoidance perspective though, you could have easily avoided both of these collisions.
- 367
- Midwest
- JCH8r
I'm just going to jump in here and apologize to anyone affected by my inability to understand the SR system in last night's racing. I thought the car ghosts as you are burning off a penalty. That is apparently not what happens at all. Sorry. I will read this thread to better understand the system. Thanks for posting some examples here.
- 109
- Humphrey_Bogus
@TJC_69 & @BallPtPenTheif, I appreciate your comments, although a little tough to swallow I see your points.
Certainly on the Megane race, on review I could've lifted or taken evasive action and swerved, but if you notice I had a little wobble too, so was catching that, the driver ahead had been consistent too, and I'd expected them to catch their tank slapper.
With the Maggiore race, I'd have preferred it if the game hadn't ghosted them through me to pass (received a penalty which might have slowed them down) then ghosted them again to rejoin after tanking it off piste, only to go solid for me to hit them. (Then slow down only to spearhead off track again!).
As for hugging the apex for longer than I should have... I had the lead, they were off track, technically I can drive whatever line I like... I need to remember that it's not real and give everyone less than a DR B a wide birth sacrificing my run.
The consistency of ghosting/no ghosting (which I avoid driving through) is what's getting me.
Certainly on the Megane race, on review I could've lifted or taken evasive action and swerved, but if you notice I had a little wobble too, so was catching that, the driver ahead had been consistent too, and I'd expected them to catch their tank slapper.
With the Maggiore race, I'd have preferred it if the game hadn't ghosted them through me to pass (received a penalty which might have slowed them down) then ghosted them again to rejoin after tanking it off piste, only to go solid for me to hit them. (Then slow down only to spearhead off track again!).
As for hugging the apex for longer than I should have... I had the lead, they were off track, technically I can drive whatever line I like... I need to remember that it's not real and give everyone less than a DR B a wide birth sacrificing my run.
The consistency of ghosting/no ghosting (which I avoid driving through) is what's getting me.
- 483
- London
Wait a minute, sir… After watching carefully your videos I realized that you are cheating to avoid penalties. You are not racing properly… You aren’t cutting other drivers lines. You are controlling your speed to avoid ramming others from behind. When others hit you… you are not hitting back! And in top of that, you are not sharp steering and you’re driving carefully and in a clean fashion. This is not the way of playing Need for Speed!! Bad driver!!
- 1,435
- Kansas City/MO/US
- BallPtPenTheif
- BallPtPenTheif
It's a tough call to make. I race at DR B so I don't expect people to elegantly recover from stuff like that. I would have lifted until he regained traction (or a clear direction) and then put the throttle on. Is it overly cautious? For a video game, probably but in racing it's a general rule to give out of control people space to recover rather than try and thread the needle full throttle while they try to recover.
I've definitely lost positions from being overly cautious but I rarely get collision penalties, so from my perspective my caution is a net gain.
You're correct. This is not an incident of shared cornering rights. He's off of the track and you technically have full right of way on the exit. That being said, being safe and not getting hit is about being somewhat predictable to the natural line. He clearly expected you to follow the natural line which is why he jumps on after the apex. From his perspective (a perspective of not knowing how to properly re-enter the track) you are blocking him from re-entering which is why he so aggressively begins to ram you to get back onto the track.
By driving in an irregular way you created a moment of unpredictability which caused him to hit you. It's not like he's going to just vanish from the game... he's there and he's going to come back on, usually abruptly due to the increased traction when he hits the tarmac. Personally, knowing how the game gives penalties and expecting the driver to come back on track I would have treated that entire left half of the track like it was lava once he went off track. If you are middle track on an exit line as an inside car hits you, usually the outside car will get the penalty. The game does not take impact penalties in context of when they happened so the system didn't care that he came from off of the track to take an inside line.
But yes, the ghosting is always a weird game of Russian roulette. No disagreement there.
- 3,954
- Laguna
- Alpha_Cipher1
- 483
- London
Guys, I suggest that you pay more attention to this kind of posts, these are the explanations that will make you a better racer. This is basic racing etiquette.
Now, let me add something. I did exactly what is described here, yesterday night at Brands Hatch, and because I did this I saved 2 laps worth of fuel, because the other guy recovered and raced like he owed me money, and I was behind short-shifting. He was working for me in a moment of the race in which overtaking him would have costed me 2 laps worth of fuel. Smart is safe-Safe is fast
