[POLL] United States Presidential Elections 2016

The party nominees are named. Now who do you support?


  • Total voters
    278
  • Poll closed .
Status
Not open for further replies.
"chemical weapons is where we draw the line!"

:lol:
About that. The gas used in the Syrian chemical weapon attacks was Chlorine Gas. In 2007, Insurgents in Iraq used the gas in an attack that made over 350 people ill and killed two. (Source) Who was to blame for the attack and what I am about to say after will be important later.

When the Syrian attack happened, it was immediately thought that the attack was committed by Assad. According to an interview with the man on Charlie Rose, Assad said that it was...

The Blaze
“very self-evident” that chlorine gas is “not very effective; it’s not used as military gas.” Assad further argued that traditional weapons are more important, and that if the gas was more effective, terrorists would have used it “on a larger scale.”

Earlier in the interview, he had stated that "First of all, the chlorine gas is not military gas,” Assad said. “You can buy it anywhere."

This is certainly true, since ISIS used the gas twice, once in the town of Duluiyah, Iraq, and the other near Mosul in a car bomb against Kurdish forces.

Source for the Assad Interview

Source for the Duluivah attack

Source for the Mosul attack (.pdf Warning. May require you to download the file to view.)
 
Which is not true because of the fact that ISIS was actually born in Syria(a Obama hot spot), THEN expanded into Iraq. Had Obama not kept his campaign promise and pulled US Troops out of Iraq(completed by 2012), there would already be a fighting force
in Iraq fighting them.

ISIS was not born in Syria this considering the fact that ISIS is essentially Abu Musab al-Zarqawi branch of Al Qaeda and a mixture of Saddam's old army, just rebranded, that said Trump is correct about Clinton and ISIS. Also lets not forget its also Clinton's personal war in Libya which is allowing the group to expand into the country.
 
Let me clarify what I am saying. ISIS started capturing land in Syria, THEN spread to Iraq. While it is true that it was basically Saddam's old army and AQI rebranded, they did start in Syria, an Obama hotspot, and expanded East to Iraq.
 
All this political name calling.
Let's skip all that and just say Team America, World Police.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ken
they did start in Syria, an Obama hotspot

That genuinely made me laugh aloud. You realise (I hope) that Obama stood against Bush's war and that he was subsequently saddled with a Congress of whom over 200 voted for the war?

Sometimes your anti-Obama regurgitations contain interesting content, this one just seems lame to me. It's almost as amusing as hearing Rumsfeld condemn the mess that Obama's been left with. Incredible.
 
Which is not true because of the fact that ISIS was actually born in Syria
No.

ISIL were formed in 1999. They pledged allegiance to al'Qaeda in 2004, when they became known as al'Qaeda in Iraq, and that's when they started actively operating as an insurgent group. The ISIL name was first adopted in 2006 when they merged several insurgent groups together and severed ties with al'Qaeda; this is when Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi took over. They expanded into Syria to take advantage of the instability caused by the Syrian Civil War, established a foothold in the region, and then returned to Iraq to claim more territory.

It took me all of two minutes on Wikipedia to learn that, and five minutes to double-check the sources provided in the article.
 
Paul Ryan put on big boy pants and put this to a vote after Obama introduced new gun control regulations...

Obamacare repeal

The measure, which already passed the Senate in December 52-47, was passed in the House 240-181.

Vote Breakdown (for a matter of Public Record):
Republicans: 239-3 4 did not vote
Democrats: 1-178 9 did not vote

The President vetoed the measure.
 
They do realize that this law is never going away as long as there is a democrat in the executive office correct? I bet Obama is laughing his ass off at Ryan's move as he knows they can't get the 2/3rds majority veto override in the Senate.
 
They do realize that this law is never going away as long as there is a democrat in the executive office correct? I bet Obama is laughing his ass off at Ryan's move as he knows they can't get the 2/3rds majority veto override in the Senate.
I'll even go one step further. Ryan is an idiot for even thinking that a symbolic stand like this would solve anything. He stated that "For five years, Senate Democrats have blocked our efforts to repeal Obamacare." No, Mr. Speaker, the obstruction was you. You had the votes to repeal it, but you held off until today because you wanted a PR spin against Obama's gun control presser.
 
Yes, because I am sooooooo far right that I wrapped around and defended gay rights, oppose militarized police, and opposed The Patriot Act. We've been here long enough for you to know me better than that.

I don't consider you, or other libertarians as "far right". IMO the far-right consists of "conservative" pundits like Limbaugh & Hannity, & the politicians & public who share their positions.

Obama is regularly excoriated as being un-American, anti-American & even "not-American". Supposedly 48% of Republican voters believe he is a Muslim. The general hate & vitriol directed towards Obama by the far-right has been unending. His determination to bring American troops home from Iraq & Afghanistan & his reluctance to act vigorously in Libya & Syria, his nuclear deal with Iran, all have been has been loudly condemned by, not just the far-right, but by pretty much ALL Republicans & in aggressively hyperbolic terms.

Politicians lie, so I have no idea. I like to think the best of people and think they have the best intentions, but that burns me a lot. Bush campaigned on no nation building. He was showing no intent to pursue a war until after 9/11.

Bush didn't seem to have much idea about anything before coming to office, but Bush's closest advisors: Cheney, Rumsfeld & Wolfowitz had clearly advanced the idea of invading Iraq & getting rid of Saddam before 911 & before Bush came to power. They had, in fact, already attempted (unsuccessfully) to pressure President Clinton to follow this policy.

I never said Obama was a warmonger. I pointed out that he hasn't handled things better than Bush. It's gotten bigger, not smaller. He got involved in internal fights in other countries, something he would have protested against if it were Bush.

The implication of what you are saying IS that Obama is a warmonger. It hasn't "gotten bigger" - there are far fewer US men & materiel in the Middle East than during the Bush Presidency. What has happened is that the consequences of Bush's actions in Iraq have spilled over into neighboring countries. It would still be "bigger" if Obama had done absolutely nothing to intervene in those countries.

It's easy for libertarians to act holier-than-thou when it comes to foreign policy (or anything else when it comes to that), because libertarians have never actually exercised any executive power in the US. What I do see is libertarian politicians identifying themselves with the party that voted 96.4% (House of Representatives) & 100% (Senate) in favor of the Iraq War resolution - the party of Trump, Crux, Rubio, Christie et al who are all lining up to say how they would "carpet-bomb" & the Middle East & tear up the nuclear agreement with Iraq.
 
there are far fewer US men & materiel in the Middle East than during the Bush Presidency.
Maybe on the ground, but that still doesn't excuse the Naval group that is stationed near the Arabian Peninsula. Nor does it excuse the "silicone analogs"(drones) that he has used in the form of drone strikes (that I say comes from the Naval group, but the CIA authorized the strike.)
 
It's generally accepted that the Second Iraq War was a major cause of the current situation in Iraq and Syria, so I think it's a little unfair to criticise Obama's handling of a situation created by Bush. That doesn't exonerate Obama of wrongdoing, but the question has to be asked - if Bush had handled the Second Iraq War better, what situation would Obama be in politically now?
How is it Bush's fault that Obama chose to use the situations to create regime change and aid the people opposing Assad, which included ISIS? Obama gave aid to the people who were our enemies in Iraq.

If Obama had been there trying to stop ISIS you'd have a point, but he went in to Syria to create regime change. Same with Lybia.

I'm also curious how Bush is at fault for Yemen.

That genuinely made me laugh aloud. You realise (I hope) that Obama stood against Bush's war and that he was subsequently saddled with a Congress of whom over 200 voted for the war?
The same Congress that didn't give Obama permission to go into Syria and Lybia? Yeah, they really pushed him into it.


Obama is regularly excoriated as being un-American, anti-American & even "not-American". Supposedly 48% of Republican voters believe he is a Muslim. The general hate & vitriol directed towards Obama by the far-right has been unending.
It's called partisan politics. It works both ways. People opposed to The Patriot Act supported Obama's signing it's extension and defense of the NSA spying. Most of the anti-war movement disappeared after Obama took office.

Every president in my lifetime has been unfairly smeared by the other party and both parties support their candidate doing what they opposed previously.

Obama has gotten nothing worse than all other presidents.

Bush didn't seem to have much idea about anything before coming to office,
And you just proved my point. Attacks on Bush's intelligence are equally as bad as attacks on Obama's patriotism.

but Bush's closest advisors: Cheney, Rumsfeld & Wolfowitz had clearly advanced the idea of invading Iraq & getting rid of Saddam before 911 & before Bush came to power. They had, in fact, already attempted (unsuccessfully) to pressure President Clinton to follow this policy.
And that is relevant to Bush's intent how? Oh, that's right; Bush was a puppet, but Obama was an innocent not given a choice.

The implication of what you are saying IS that Obama is a warmonger. It hasn't "gotten bigger"
Bush left us actively at war with 2 countries (3 if you count the decades long Somalia stuff) and Obama now has us in 5 countries (6/Somalia). Depending on the when and the where determines whether we are fighting ISIS or helping their groups overthrow regimes.

- there are far fewer US men & materiel in the Middle East than during the Bush Presidency.
It's like claiming police deaths are down because we replaced men with ED-209s.

Sure, less troops are at risk, but we are bringing death from above. What ability we had to reach the people was removed, but we didn't stop killing. When we kill bystanders while trying to bomb a target there is no US military medic running in to save lives. Now the people who are trying to help have to fear a second strike.

What has happened is that the consequences of Bush's actions in Iraq have spilled over into neighboring countries. It would still be "bigger" if Obama had done absolutely nothing to intervene in those countries.
This would be a sound argument if Obama had tried to aid Assad and Gaddafi in stopping ISIS. Instead we went in to overthrow them, aiding ISIS. I still can't believe Obama praised the death of Gaddafi after the videos of how he died were out. We're on the same team as the bayonet sodomizer!!!

And in Yemen, we were involved before ISIS and al-Qaeda. That is more likely Obama trying to smooth out issues with Saudi Arabia after the Iran deal.

I personally supported the Iran deal. If the choice was that or war number 6(7) I pick the one that doesn't kill people.


It's easy for libertarians to act holier-than-thou when it comes to foreign policy (or anything else when it comes to that), because libertarians have never actually exercised any executive power in the US.
Fair point, and why I am always cautious of any politician. Until people try non-intervention you can't say it won't work.

What I do see is libertarian politicians identifying themselves with the party that voted 96.4% (House of Representatives) & 100% (Senate) in favor of the Iraq War resolution - the party of Trump, Crux, Rubio, Christie et al who are all lining up to say how they would "carpet-bomb" & the Middle East & tear up the nuclear agreement with Iraq.
Careful. There is a difference between libertarian leaning Republicans, like Rand Paul, and Libetarian candidates like Gary Johnson.
 
The same Congress that didn't give Obama permission to go into Syria and Lybia? Yeah, they really pushed him into it.

There are few parts of the world where anybody doubts that Daesh pose a credible threat to many, many people. My reply was regarding the circumstances in which the Levant vacuum was enabled.
 
There are few parts of the world where anybody doubts that Daesh pose a credible threat to many, many people. My reply was regarding the circumstances in which the Levant vacuum was enabled.
That's irrelevant to why he went into Syria. He went in looking to create regime change, not stop ISIS.

You can say the civil war started because of ISIS, which was the result of Bush's Iraq actions, but Obama did not go in to help Assad stop ISIS. He helped ISIS fight Assad.

So, how is it Bush's fault that Obama joined the side ISIS was on? And to the original point, ISIS came out of Iraq but were properly armed in Syria...by Obama. We were pushing them back until that point.
 
It's easy for libertarians to act holier-than-thou when it comes to foreign policy (or anything else when it comes to that), because libertarians have never actually exercised any executive power in the US.
Like when people from other countries do the same thing.
 
What I do see is libertarian politicians identifying themselves with the party that voted 96.4% (House of Representatives) & 100% (Senate) in favor of the Iraq War resolution - the party of Trump, Crux, Rubio, Christie et al who are all lining up to say how they would "carpet-bomb" & the Middle East & tear up the nuclear agreement with Iraq.
Keep in mind the different between libertarian and Libertarian. One is a philosophy, the other is the proper name of a political party.

Ron and Rand Paul are both members of the Republican party but lean heavily libertarian. The reason they're members of the Republican party is because they simply wouldn't be accepted into the fold if they were members of the Libertarian party. It doesn't get enough attention. Also, the Republican party has *historically* favored policies similar to libertarian policies, particularly when it comes to economic freedom. But the main reason the Pauls do it is for visibility.
 
@FoolKiller Your characterization of what the Obama administration has been doing in the Middle East is a gross over-simplification. Let's be honest: there's no one who really fully understands exactly what is going on in the Middle East - nobody in the US military, nobody in the CIA, nobody in the State Department, & not even anyone among the many participants fighting on the ground in Libya, Syria & Iraq. This is, of course, a powerful argument for NOT intervening.

It is the argument Obama would have made before he became President. If you want to look at why Obama got sucked into intervention I would suggest you have to look at the system, not the man. But whatever the present level of intervention under the Obama administration, it's absurd to pretend that it's equivalent to launching a first strike, preemptive, full-scale war with the hundreds of thousands of soldiers that the US & its allies threw into The Iraq war.

The question in this thread though, is how does the situation in the Middle East relate to the upcoming Presidential election. It seems to have originated with a discussion about Hillary Clinton. She has been attacked by the left for being too hawkish as SOS & by the nationally-irrelevant-but-GTPLanet-significant libertarian faction for similar reasons - & by the rest of the Republican party for being a lying, scheming, devious, uppity, radical left-wing woman.

Even if it were true that she is unpalatably hawkish, what's the alternative? The Republican candidates, to a man ... & woman (with the exception of Rand Paul) , have lined up to proclaim how the Obama/Hillary policy in the Middle East has been too wimpy & if they became President they'd "make the desert glow", tear up the Iranian nuclear agreement, & throw even more unquestioning support behind whatever the Israelis choose to do. The idea that electing an overtly aggressive, sabre-rattling President is going to result in less intervention is ridiculous.

There is a difference between libertarian leaning Republicans, like Rand Paul, and Libetarian candidates like Gary Johnson.

What? What happened to "Run Rand Run"?
 
a gross over-simplification.

The Republican candidates, to a man ... & woman (with the exception of Rand Paul) , have lined up to proclaim how the Obama/Hillary policy in the Middle East has been too wimpy & if they became President they'd "make the desert glow", tear up the Iranian nuclear agreement, & throw even more unquestioning support behind whatever the Israelis choose to do.

If you are looking for the peaceniks - other than Rand Paul - amongst the current Republican candidates then your choices are restricted to Trump and maybe Christie.
 
@FoolKiller Your characterization of what the Obama administration has been doing in the Middle East is a gross over-simplification. Let's be honest: there's no one who really fully understands exactly what is going on in the Middle East - nobody in the US military, nobody in the CIA, nobody in the State Department, & not even anyone among the many participants fighting on the ground in Libya, Syria & Iraq. This is, of course, a powerful argument for NOT intervening.
Explain to me how much understanding would be necessary to be able to accept:

  1. Commiting war crimes.
  2. Siding with terrorists/our enemies in multiple local civil wars.
  3. Giving air support to Saudi Arabia against a country that we have no quarrel with.

War crimes need to be over simplified. Attacking a banned target and killing volunteer aid workers is simplistically wrong.

Choosing your enemies and allies should be simple. Don't arm the guys you are fighting against in other territories.

And if the Yemen/Saudi Arabia situation is, as is suggested by many, to appease Saudi Arabia after the Iran deal then they need to sack up and defend their decision to avoid a war, not assist in another war.


It is the argument Obama would have made before he became President. If you want to look at why Obama got sucked into intervention I would suggest you have to look at the system, not the man. But whatever the present level of intervention under the Obama administration, it's absurd to pretend that it's equivalent to launching a first strike, preemptive, full-scale war with the hundreds of thousands of soldiers that the US & its allies threw into The Iraq war.
So long as it is their people, an all the innocents around them, getting killed it's a good war. Got it.

Troops on the ground or drones in the sky, the morality is unchanged. One just removes a large portion of your risk, which makes it far easier for you to keep fighting.

The question in this thread though, is how does the situation in the Middle East relate to the upcoming Presidential election. It seems to have originated with a discussion about Hillary Clinton. She has been attacked by the left for being too hawkish as SOS & by the nationally-irrelevant-but-GTPLanet-significant libertarian faction for similar reasons
Considering why people elected Obama and the fact that her hawkishness is what really separated her from him in 2008, she does come off very hawkish.

- & by the rest of the Republican party for being a lying, scheming, devious, uppity, radical left-wing woman.
assuming you are using "woman" as a general description and not something you have actually used against her, you just described partisan politics. Shocking.

Even if it were true that she is unpalatably hawkish, what's the alternative?
If I were a Democrat and war was my only issue then I would vote Bernie. Did you forget she still has to beat him?

But I'm neither of those.

The Republican candidates, to a man ... & woman (with the exception of Rand Paul) ,
What's your sudden deal with gender pronouns? Is it an important factor that I'm missing?

have lined up to proclaim how the Obama/Hillary policy in the Middle East has been too wimpy & if they became President they'd "make the desert glow", tear up the Iranian nuclear agreement, & throw even more unquestioning support behind whatever the Israelis choose to do. The idea that electing an overtly aggressive, sabre-rattling President is going to result in less intervention is ridiculous.
Cute. You think I only get to choose from Demoplicans and Republicrats. I haven't done that in years.

What? What happened to "Run Rand Run"?
He has made some odd choices in this campaign. Either he is playing politics and acting hawkish on Iran just to get primary votes or he is not who people hoped for. If he's just playing the game then he misses the honesty that drew this people to his father. If he's being honest them he definitely isn't what those people want.

Rand has his father's donor mailing list and has failed to raise nearly as much money. There is currently a debate in libertarian circles regarding whether he is the best hope, flaws and all, for a more libertarian president or whether libertarians should vote with a more hard line stance and choose someone like Gary Johnson, knowing he won't win.

I personally have no clue how I would vote if he won the nomination, but he likely won't, so it doesn't matter. And since I'm not registered as a Republican, which is required to vote in the Republican primary in my state I have little to workout in my mind.

The more interesting outcome will be if it comes down to Trump and Hillary. I've heard some libertarians say that they would vote for Hillary to keep Trump out.
 
Last edited:
You'd think libertarians would know better.
I guess it's a desperate times mentality.

I honestly think they wouldn't have to do it. Hillary could get Republican votes that are anti-Trump or voters that want to say they voted for the first female president :rolleyes:. I think Trump wouldn't be able to attract many Democrats.


Now, if I were any third party and you got Trump/Hillary or even Trump/Sanders I would get an ad campaign out there that basically said, "Really? These are our choices?"


I just now realized that this might be an election to select the most meme-worthy hair.

They sound like they are running for genie in chief, but the Internet is having a field day with hair comments.
 
If your honestly going to take blame off Obama at this point for what he is doing in the middle east with Drones etc, then you have to hold the same standard with Bush especially considering it was basically all Cheney's doing anyway as Bush had basically no real control in his term anyway.

No doubt media wise Obama has done it smarter but I would argue from a humanitarian point of view the drone usage is significantly worse.
 
Perhaps not quite rivaling Donald in controversy and fringe appeal, Hillary promises to investigate UFO's.

IMG_0264.png

Reporter Daymond Steer asks Democratic candidate Hillary Clinton for her stance on UFOs when she visited the Sun on Tuesday. (MARGARET McKENZIE PHOTO)

When asked about her husband's nonchalant comment about contact with the third kind, Hillary Clinton responded: "I think we may have been (visited already). We don't know for sure."
http://www.conwaydailysun.com/newsx/local-news/123978-clinton-promises-to-investigate-ufos

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...73ce4b014efe0da95db?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592
We'll see, Obama wasn't very friendly to those who believe but did talk about it and actually called Area 51 by it's name in public press, so perhaps the USG is more open to talking about it or have us think so. But it being Hillary and considering the major fall out on this subject during her husband's reign, I'm not surprised she is interested in if the lore is real. But Podesta didn't do anything for the UFO disclosure under Obama, and many thought something would come of him being appointed. So I doubt anything will come of Clinton.
 
Worse than carpet bombing from B-52s? Worse than cluster bombs?
The merits and problems of each could be argued.

One was swift and massive, but short-lived, and with our own people in the area to assist, and even warn civilians.

The other comes in silently, might have a secondary strike that hits first responders, and lacks any sense of a humanitarian presence.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back