Polyphony are technical wizards!

[MeanElf]

So should the casuals be expected to know that PD is taking the approach of selling them an incomplete game with the hope they'll stick around long enough to see the features added into the game (that currently don't have a release date)?

Well, I do admit to being surprised that people, casuals or otherwise wouldn't look into what they buy first - after all Caveat Emptor applies just as much today as when then phrase first appeared in Roman times (not talking about law here.)

There is also the simple fact that maybe a new player might not even like the game, and therefore have wasted their cash on it by buying either blind or without first checking deeper into what will be coming with the game - anyway, that's the way my logic rolls on this.

 

[Imari]

Well, I do admit to being surprised that people, casuals or otherwise wouldn't look into what they buy first - after all Caveat Emptor applies just as much today as when then phrase first appeared in Roman times (not talking about law here.)

There is also the simple fact that maybe a new player might not even like the game, and therefore have wasted their cash on it by buying either blind or without first checking deeper into what will be coming with the game - anyway, that's the way my logic rolls on this.

New players, sure.

But I don't think it's unreasonable that someone who bought and enjoyed GT5 casually should be able to roll into a store, see the GT6 has been released and impulse buy it with near no knowledge apart from what's on the box. You know, without being burned by the fact that GT6 is lacking features that were in GT5 at release and are now due at some unspecified future date for GT6.

 

[jimipitbull]

New players, sure.

But I don't think it's unreasonable that someone who bought and enjoyed GT5 casually should be able to roll into a store, see the GT6 has been released and impulse buy it with near no knowledge apart from what's on the box. You know, without being burned by the fact that GT6 is lacking features that were in GT5 at release and are now due at some unspecified future date for GT6.

Those people would notice a massive improvement compared to GT5 release. They also would have seen PD support and improve GT5 for 3 years.

I suppose a few of them don't have their PS3 plugged into the internet.

 

[Imari]

Those people would notice a massive improvement compared to GT5 release. They also would have seen PD support and improve GT5 for 3 years.

I suppose a few of them don't have their PS3 plugged into the internet.

Again, you're assuming that these are people who bought GT5 at release, when it was at it's worst. A non-trivial amount of people bought GT5 XL. They didn't see the most radical of the GT5 upgrades, nor is it a given that a casual player follows the history of the game closely.

Compare GT6 to GT5 XL, the last version that went on sale (console games don't usually have disc versions...). In some ways it's better, but in terms of features you can see how some people might be disappointed. There's stuff missing.

 

[jimipitbull]

Again, you're assuming that these are people who bought GT5 at release, when it was at it's worst. A non-trivial amount of people bought GT5 XL. They didn't see the most radical of the GT5 upgrades, nor is it a given that a casual player follows the history of the game closely.

Compare GT6 to GT5 XL, the last version that went on sale (console games don't usually have disc versions...). In some ways it's better, but in terms of features you can see how some people might be disappointed. There's stuff missing.

You specified GT5 release in your post. I have highlighted the relevant part.

New players, sure.

But I don't think it's unreasonable that someone who bought and enjoyed GT5 casually should be able to roll into a store, see the GT6 has been released and impulse buy it with near no knowledge apart from what's on the box. You know, without being burned by the fact that GT6 is lacking features that were in GT5 at release and are now due at some unspecified future date for GT6.

Speaking of technical. I think PD would like this track

 

[vasiliflame]

Those people would notice a massive improvement compared to GT5 release. They also would have seen PD support and improve GT5 for 3 years.

I suppose a few of them don't have their PS3 plugged into the internet.

I didn't see a massive improvement and I had it day before release , spent all them years waiting for somthing to happen but nothing substantial. IMHO best thing I remember in gt5 was the release of spa

 

[Zer0]

You know, I admit that I'm not the most familiar with capture cards since I've only used a friend's once; but if they work anything like the Hitachi camcorder with a video-in function that I used to have if you set one to record at 480 most will record the entire 720x480 frame regardless of what is being input into them.

Yes, that's because removing the overscan frame the image it match the native render resolution of the PS2 console...

You know, I'm tired of correcting you and giving factual examples every time meanwhile you have not given any. This has become the neverending story of the excuses for not knowing first hand the stuff that you are defending and will never end if you don't understand first how wrong was your theory, instead of repeating blindly what others said in some forums.

Back to the roots.

You mean that the scaler chip inside your TV is inferior to the method the PS2 was using to fake the 1080i signal. Got it.

There is no more detail than the 480p image, and if your TV has the hardware to scale it properly (a good idea of one that would have a good scalar chip would be any TV that can accept and display a 240p signal as 240p; whereas most would either force it to 480i or not show it at all) or is an older CRT HDTV it would look no different. If the first generation PS3 had a hardware scalar in it so it could upscale progressive scan images with PS2 games, it would also look no different.

I'm going to use an state of the art photo scaler, one of the best if not the best and not suitable for real-time video scaling as it's too much processor intensive.

An example of what is capable:

What is not going to happen scaling an image with no antialiasing, like BWX marked previously in red, is that a discontinuos line with different color gaps in between, because the lack of rendering resolution, will become continuos or with added line detail between gaps. A scaler works good with good source images with plenty of detail (real video, photos, etc) but suffer from some issues when are working with non antialiasing images. No scaler can understand that a serie of spaced points means a line to consecuently redraw it with more detail to match the same image at more native resolution.

This is what happens when you use the better scaler available with that low resolution lines.

The original image before the scaling:

After the scaling:

 

[Tenacious D]

And any manager who hasn't had to let anyone go in 15 years is a terrible manager. I'm sorry, that's statistically so unlikely that I don't believe a word of it. Luck of the draw means you're going to get at least one dud in 15 years and you're going to have to politely ask them to gtfo.

Imari, I know sometimes it seems I'm picking on you, but I think this is a bit of a reach.

Last year sometime, someone mentioned that the Japanese aren't the only people who wear themselves out at their development jobs. But they didn't mention that Asians are so driven that students sometimes commit suicide if they don't ace their scores. Face it, they're a culture you'll never understand, not really. As a culture, they're the hardest workers you'll ever find. And bluffing your way into a high profile job is extremely rare in Japan. Kaz hand picks who works at Polyphony, so you can be sure they're top drawer.

Plus, on the one hand they need to hire more staff, on the other, they should let people go?

Now as for the rest of the class, I'm not sure what to say to you. I know that with humans, druthers are druthers. Some of you will fly into conniptions over the sounds, or that Standard cars are still in the game, or the bot behavior or whatever. You can complain that the game is unfinished, but I'd rather have it than wait another year - even though it would be on PS4 by then. I'd rather have the standards to drive than not have them. In fact, when I had the dosh, the first race car I ran to buy was the unchanged NOMAD Diablo GT1 car. And wow, was I happy. The unruly beast from GT5 was now poised, agile and easily aggressive, and sounded pretty darn nice too. And once again, a good deal of my favorite cars are Standards, improved or not.

I could mention once again, and I will, that I've been taking lower PP modified street cars into the i-A World Circuit Tour races against Rally and Touring Cars, and having a blast. Amazingly, after perhaps thirty races, the leaders gave up and let me win two or three times. I have maybe ten first place finishes if I'm lucky. I was passed at the final stretch of a number of races by these bots that supposedly always let you win. Yes, the bots still crawl through turns, but they don't seem to crawl as much when I can't fly around them any faster. These are good races. I think even the grinches would like them if they gave them a shot. But who knows...

I know that GT6 is far from perfect. I'm actually with you guys on most or all of your complaints. But what's the alternative? PC sims that are, dare I say it, unfinished? Games I don't want to play? And this is the deal. At the end of the day, I know that all these racing sims are more serious than your typical video games, but that's what they are, games. Most of us here play GT6 because the positives outweigh the negatives, and we enjoy what's there.

You can say we're crazy for being happy with GT6. I think what's even crazier is wasting all this time trying to convince people that they're crazy.

 

[jagenigma]

Yes, that's because removing the overscan frame the image it match the native render resolution of the PS2 console...

You know, I'm tired of correcting you and giving factual examples every time meanwhile you have not given any. This has become the neverending story of the excuses for not knowing first hand the stuff that you are defending and will never end if you don't understand first how wrong was your theory, instead of repeating blindly what others said in some forums.

Back to the roots.



I'm going to use an state of the art photo scaler, one of the best if not the best and not suitable for real-time video scaling as it's too much processor intensive.

An example of what is capable:

What is not going to happen scaling an image with no antialiasing, like BWX marked previously in red, is that a discontinuos line with different color gaps in between, because the lack of rendering resolution, will become continuos or with added line detail between gaps. A scaler works good with good source images with plenty of detail (real video, photos, etc) but suffer from some issues when are working with non antialiasing images. No scaler can understand that a serie of spaced points means a line to consecuently redraw it with more detail to match the same image at more native resolution.

This is what happens when you use the better scaler available with that low resolution lines.

The original image before the scaling:

After the scaling:

Dude you should be the image enhancer behind CSI

 

[eSZee]

Dude you should be the image enhancer behind CSI

 

[Imari]

Imari, I know sometimes it seems I'm picking on you, but I think this is a bit of a reach.

Either you're not a manager then or you're not in the hiring and firing line. It is completely impossible for a company to hire 150 people and have none of them turn out to be duds. You've got a better chance of winning the lottery four weeks running. I don't care what country you're in, it's so unlikely it borders on absurdity.

Last year sometime, someone mentioned that the Japanese aren't the only people who wear themselves out at their development jobs. But they didn't mention that Asians are so driven that students sometimes commit suicide if they don't ace their scores. Face it, they're a culture you'll never understand, not really.

Chances are that I understand better than you, having lived and worked there for four years. No, I'll never understand completely but I have a pretty good idea.

As a generalisation, what you say is fairly true. But not everyone is a carbon copy of the stereotype, there's a huge range of variation. There's a fair share of lazy and stupid Japanese people, just as there is in any culture. There's a fair proportion of students that tell their parents to go 🤬 themselves. There's a fair share of Japanese who do about 20 hours work then mail in the rest of the week.

Saying that all Japanese people are hardworking to a fault is about as sensible as saying all Americans are land whales. Yeah, there's a high proportion, probably higher than most Western countries (certainly higher than Australia, the lazy buggers), but it's not EVERYONE.

As a culture, they're the hardest workers you'll ever find.

Source.

And bluffing your way into a high profile job is extremely rare in Japan.

Source.

Kaz hand picks who works at Polyphony, so you can be sure they're top drawer.

Again, 150 people without a miss? That's ridiculous.

Unless he's fudging it by hiring people on contract and just letting them lapse when they don't measure up or some other legally convenient way of not technically firing people, I don't believe it. Whether he's doing it by outright firing or by some other method, there has to be a way of getting people into work and screening them.

Interviews and short tests are not foolproof, and sometimes the only way to judge someone properly is to see them work for a month or two. And if you're doing that, you need some sort of method of letting the ones who don't measure up go.


You have such a rose-tinted view of Kaz and his "family" company. I'm sure they're all very close, but there are some business functions that are just unavoidable. Firing is one of them.

Then again, maybe he has actually never fired someone and he's just keeping all the duds. That would cripple a team and be terrible management, because hard-working people tend to get annoyed by having incompetents around getting paid to be crap. But I have doubts that anyone gets to the level Kaz is at without being able to fire someone if it's warranted, or at least has someone alongside to do the dirty work for them.

 

[Tenacious D]

@Imari.

If you say so, boss. But you're making a judgment based on nothing but opinion and familiarity with Oz. Which I wouldn't think would be worth a bag of pretzels in value. But, judge away. Let's see how many agree with you. I notice so far it's a couple of steady gripers.

 

[Imari]

But you're making a judgment based on nothing but opinion and familiarity with Oz.

We're both making judgements based on opinion, so that's not getting you anywhere.

However, I'm making my judgements based on business experience and practical experience of Japanese working culture. You're apparently making yours based on stereotypes and press releases.

 

[TheGame21x]

It is ok, Nintendo have been doing it for 3 generations. Also, I sometimes play GTPSP on my Vita. Is that ok by you?

I'd actually be quite happy if GT4 was re released for PS3 or PS4.

Okay? I don't give Nintendo any passes either. That's why I regretted buying a Wii and haven't bought a Wii U. The 3DS though...that's some quality hardware, like all of Nintendo's handhelds.

And why would I have a problem with you playing GT PSP?

 

[SlipZtrEm]

@Imari.

If you say so, boss. But you're making a judgment based on nothing but opinion and familiarity with Oz. Which I wouldn't think would be worth a bag of pretzels in value. But, judge away. Let's see how many agree with you. I notice so far it's a couple of steady gripers.

So, judgment based on opinion and familiarity with Oz (oh, and actual work experience): bad. Judgment based on tired stereotypes: not bad.

Gotcha.

 

[jagenigma]

 

[alonsof1fan91]

You can take your pick, practically every racing game out there has a better and more challenging career mode than GT.

Oh Really? Please explain what makes them better? Again, FM is the only series which offers something similar to GT (depending on your preferences even better).

Online is your only excuse.

Geez, what an argument. You can check my post history, btw, I was a very big critic of GT5

Only online yes, ok I read here on GTP that many players had disconnects, lag and bugs but I can't confirm this myself so you have me on this one

So I guess you don't own GT6 and haven't really played it so far, right? Keep in mind that only people who have connection issues will post about it. You won't see many "my connection is awesome! xD" posts.

Yes, but physics and day/weather changes only make the hotlapping fun offline. And which kind of bonehead would go through the effort to implementing these day/ weather changes, and go so far to even waste time accurately mapping the stars; and then not create proper endurance races for people to enjoy it?

Thats not true. The 24 min endurance races are terrific (especially if you don't use op cars). Racing trough a monsoon like rain in Spa at night is a expierience you will only get with GT6.
But I agree with you about the enduros, I miss them too.

Quantity isn't everything, especially if all of these premiums sound like crap.

GT6s premium (and semi premiums) look almost next gen. Again, show me any racer besides Forza offering a "more quality" car roster. And no "GT6 is full of eco boxes lol Shift 2 haz a e30!!!!11" posts. Name a game with more detailed cars, which also sound better and which also came close to GT numbers.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/hating-the-graphics-of-gt6.291734/page-11#post-9201020

Yes, a thread on Gtp is all the proof you need, especially if you don't own the game yourself. Even if this were true, besides GT5/P no other racing game on last gen consoles, even Forza, comes close to GT6.

FM beats it hands down, and if you look at the excitement/fun factor almost any other racing game on the shelves nowadays offers more of it; be it a sim/arcade racer it doesn't matter.

I agree that FM has overtaken GT in recent years, still its a xBox exclusive and I definitely won't buy a Xbone for it, especially when it lacks so much power to the PS4. I am currently playing NFS Rivals on Ps4 which is alot of fun for a arcade racer (nice online implementation) and looks really nice, but will it entertain me for months/years as a GT game? No. Played Grid 1 for 2 months had some fun, never touched it again. Grid 2 only lasted 3 weeks. F1 games get IMO worse each year, haven't finished a single season in F1 2012 and have yet to buy 2013. Played NFS Shift, didn't like it, as a arcade-sim Grid 2 had a nicer car roster, better damage system and carreer mode. Didn't touch Shift 2.
Pc Sims are a beast oft their own.

 

[eSZee]

Racing trough a monsoon like rain in Spa at night is a expierience you will only get with GT6.

And what an experience it is!
Monsoon? It's a light drizzle. Oh, and make sure not to use rain tires, in the rain, because full slicks have much more grip, and also make sure that the car you use has working headlights.

GT6s premium (and semi premiums) look almost next gen.

If that's the case, I'm skipping the current "next gen" all together.
I took my wheel and GT6 to a buddy's place and the first thing pointed out by everyone was how bad the game looked. Sure in photomode it looks spiffy, but on track, no. These guys aren't regular gamers but they played GT5/fm4 and even they thought visual quality was down.

Racing genre as a whole is just a steaming piece of poo and we need some new players to bring the stale series we all once loved up to where they should be.

 

[BlueShift]

i think he is talking about Tourist Trophy. Wish they would make another.

I wished since GT4 they would mix cars with motorcycles and trucks for the next GT. Not gonna happen though.

 

[Soundtrack]

I took my wheel and GT6 to a buddy's place and the first thing pointed out by everyone was how bad the game looked. Sure in photomode it looks spiffy, but on track, no. These guys aren't regular gamers but they played GT5/fm4 and even they thought visual quality was down.

I can leave room for many of the critics about current state of GT6, but as a console game looking bad is an assertion I find questionable... Any PS3 running racing game that looks better?

 

[eSZee]

I can leave room for many of the critics about current state of GT6, but as a console game looking bad is an assertion I find questionable... Any PS3 running racing game that looks better?

GT5 did.
Nothing looking as good as something, doesn't mean the thing itself looks good.
But I see what you're saying, the expectations are probably too high.

 

[Sederholm]

Seeing the quality of a game like Watch Dogs on PS4 compared to the PS3 gives you the impression that there is room for improvement in the future. But I don't think the graphics are the very disappointing, I never expected any difference in that department compared to GT5.

I just spend some minutes in Photo Mode with the new Toyota and you could see that the fenders were a bit boxy actually, so yes, there is room for improvement. That boxyness disappears when you snap the picture because the games takes some time to render a more detailed scene. When I'm racing I don't see my car at all, and hopefully I only see other cars in my mirror, so it's not a huge bother for me there either.

I was personally underwhelmed with other aspects of the game. I felt that PD had taken out some parts and not really added much news compared to GT5. My expectations were just higher than what was delivered, simple as. It's pointless to argue that someone is wrong for thinking the game is either a revolution in gaming or a big let down, it's obviously both depending on what you were expecting. I'm not saying that we should shut down the forums and not discuss the game. I think it's good and important to allow both positive and negative points to show, it's just no use arguing to someone else that they're not underwhelmed by the game.

 

[lalaurentide]

Now they create a nearly full 1080 native resolution(1440x1080p) at 60 frames WITH adaptive tessellation.

The framerate is unbearable in "1080p", unplayable on many circuit, and far from 60. Resolution is nowhere near 1920X1080, it misses 25% of the vertical resolution, and total pixels. GT5 ran better in 1080p, who cares about adaptive tessellation when nobody really notices it, contrary to the sound which is abysmal. Sure Polyphony are technical wizards, in that magic is nothing but deceving the audience.

 

[Huks]

Adaptive tessellation frees up precious resources that can be used for -- among other things -- the new sounds.

 

[Imari]

Adaptive tessellation frees up precious resources that can be used for -- among other things -- the new sounds.

Ah, the new sounds that we don't have yet?

Yes, a thread on Gtp is all the proof you need, especially if you don't own the game yourself. Even if this were true, besides GT5/P no other racing game on last gen consoles, even Forza, comes close to GT6.

This works both ways.

If you have a field of premium cars on a premium track then nothing else on PS3 or X360 looks even nearly as good.

If you have a field of unretouched standards on a standard track then nothing else on PS3 or X360 looks even nearly as bad.

The level of quality variation in the game is enormous.

 

[Unknown?]

Yup you are all right, no console racer comes close to GT6 in what it's doing. It may have hiccups at times but it still achieves more than other racers even on next gen(until Project Cars/DriveClub).

 

[NixxxoN]

Adaptive tessellation frees up precious resources that can be used for -- among other things -- the new sounds.

Sadly this adaptive tessellation seems to have decreased the overall graphics quality a bit. But the PS3 limits are to blame.

 

[diegorborges]

Imari, I know sometimes it seems I'm picking on you, but I think this is a bit of a reach.

Last year sometime, someone mentioned that the Japanese aren't the only people who wear themselves out at their development jobs. But they didn't mention that Asians are so driven that students sometimes commit suicide if they don't ace their scores. Face it, they're a culture you'll never understand, not really. As a culture, they're the hardest workers you'll ever find. And bluffing your way into a high profile job is extremely rare in Japan. Kaz hand picks who works at Polyphony, so you can be sure they're top drawer.

Plus, on the one hand they need to hire more staff, on the other, they should let people go?

Now as for the rest of the class, I'm not sure what to say to you. I know that with humans, druthers are druthers. Some of you will fly into conniptions over the sounds, or that Standard cars are still in the game, or the bot behavior or whatever. You can complain that the game is unfinished, but I'd rather have it than wait another year - even though it would be on PS4 by then. I'd rather have the standards to drive than not have them. In fact, when I had the dosh, the first race car I ran to buy was the unchanged NOMAD Diablo GT1 car. And wow, was I happy. The unruly beast from GT5 was now poised, agile and easily aggressive, and sounded pretty darn nice too. And once again, a good deal of my favorite cars are Standards, improved or not.

I could mention once again, and I will, that I've been taking lower PP modified street cars into the i-A World Circuit Tour races against Rally and Touring Cars, and having a blast. Amazingly, after perhaps thirty races, the leaders gave up and let me win two or three times. I have maybe ten first place finishes if I'm lucky. I was passed at the final stretch of a number of races by these bots that supposedly always let you win. Yes, the bots still crawl through turns, but they don't seem to crawl as much when I can't fly around them any faster. These are good races. I think even the grinches would like them if they gave them a shot. But who knows...

I know that GT6 is far from perfect. I'm actually with you guys on most or all of your complaints. But what's the alternative? PC sims that are, dare I say it, unfinished? Games I don't want to play? And this is the deal. At the end of the day, I know that all these racing sims are more serious than your typical video games, but that's what they are, games. Most of us here play GT6 because the positives outweigh the negatives, and we enjoy what's there.

You can say we're crazy for being happy with GT6. I think what's even crazier is wasting all this time trying to convince people that they're crazy.

I share the aame thoughts and Im having a lot of fun with the game. And I strongly believe that it have much more potential than GT5 to become a lot better with the updates.

 

[sparkytooth]

Something something resolution something something Zer0 is at it again something something half assed? something something enhance something something GT4, something something wizards.

 

[phil_75]

Sadly this adaptive tessellation seems to have decreased the overall graphics quality a bit. But the PS3 limits are to blame.

You can't blame the PS3

PD know its limits and went over them. Its their job to optimise it.
GT5p was fantastic looking with higher resolution textures and 1440x1080 resolution.
GT5 saw a drop in texture quality and resolution to 1280x1080
GT6 has upped the resolution to 1440x1080 at the cost of AA and framerate. The actual image quality is the worst of the three by far.