Polyphony are technical wizards!

[TokoTurismo]

So you like pretty half assed games?

Like Shift 2? A game that's also half assed that even you like?

 

[sumbrownkid]

Like Shift 2?

Horrible memories of that game...

 

[TheGame21x]

Okay, no one really knows what he does, if it's just technical direction or actual track design work anymore (he did design at least a few Seasonal tracks in GT5 after all) - however, someone drove the team to create a better engine over the one used for GT5 plus went for better graphics, overhauled other features such as photomode and course creator etc. So, who would you think was more likely to be behind that?

Yeah, someone drove them to create a better physics engine but I honestly don't think that was Kaz's doing. Besides, in a number of ways, Gran Turismo 6 actually looks slightly worse in practice than GT5 did, with poorer shadows, lower detailed reflections, and poorer quality overall geometry on the cars (that's what the adaptive tessellation is for). Again, these are slight downgrades and ones you might not notice right off the bat but they're there. I'm not saying he's done nothing for the series as of late but I do think his passion for the game's development has waned.

still getting up everyday to please the majority of us with his creation that we take a liking to. Still dragging himself to work everyday to repeat the same ominous features that the main point was always around, creating the best driving experience possible for the majority. Do you realize how boring it is to make the same thing, over and over, unless it is something you really like? That is why he returns, otherwise he would shoot himself in the foot and ask for forgiveness as to why he has been sucked into this. Now, if he does that last bit, then that may be why see a bit of some lack in MAJOR overhauls. But I think he puts in his time card every day and we get the best out of him..

The impression I get from Kaz is that he's an auteur and the reason why Gran Turismo hasn't seen the major overhauls that it needs at this point is because they would go against what he wants to see from the game. He doesn't want to see cars damaged, so there's no damage model. He knows the studio doesn't have the sheer manpower to remodel every one of the standard cars but doesn't want to cut them because that goes against his personal vision of the game. So we have the inconsistent quality on that front.

 

[mister dog]

Like Shift 2? A game that's also half assed that even you like?

What's half assed about that one, S2 is a complete racing game package and the only thing you can criticize it on is that it's physics are not as good as your beloved GT...
You on the other hand have only the physics to be bragging about, as the rest of the package is still stuck in 1998 AKA half assed for today's standards.

But i guess you were just trolling

Name another console sim with the physics of GT and weather and time change while managing to maintain 60 FPS as much as possible while outputting to 1080P.

I honestly chuckle at people now that say this or that is the reason for half assed, like they actually know how the people work or what they work with.

People talk as if making games is easy.

Ok you mentioned the physics and the time/ weather changes which i agree on,.. they are nicely implemented. But aren't you forgetting about tons of other things at this moment that make a racing game "complete", and aren't how they should be? You ignoring major factors here and it's no biggie if you can enjoy the game even tough they are lacking 👍, but it doesn't take away the fact that the other half of GT6 is horribly half assed...

 

[Swagger897]

Yeah, someone drove them to create a better physics engine but I honestly don't think that was Kaz's doing. Besides, in a number of ways, Gran Turismo 6 actually looks slightly worse in practice than GT5 did, with poorer shadows, lower detailed reflections, and poorer quality overall geometry on the cars (that's what the adaptive tessellation is for). Again, these are slight downgrades and ones you might not notice right off the bat but they're there. I'm not saying he's done nothing for the series as of late but I do think his passion for the game's development has waned.



The impression I get from Kaz is that he's an auteur and the reason why Gran Turismo hasn't seen the major overhauls that it needs at this point is because they would go against what he wants to see from the game. He doesn't want to see cars damaged, so there's no damage model. He knows the studio doesn't have the sheer manpower to remodel every one of the standard cars but doesn't want to cut them because that goes against his personal vision of the game. So we have the inconsistent quality on that front.

Right, becUse the way he sees things is that his game is a club for people to help out. It's not a business, but a means to express the things people like to do..

 

[Imari]

Name another console sim with the physics of GT and weather and time change while managing to maintain 60 FPS as much as possible while outputting to 1080P.

I honestly chuckle at people now that say this or that is the reason for half assed, like they actually know how the people work or what they work with.

People talk as if making games is easy.

It's a stupid question anyway. When you have to be that specific in order to rule out any other competition, you know something isn't right.

In a couple of years it will be "console sim with good physics and weather and night racing and almost 60fps and 1080p and adaptive tesselation and a course maker and AI that doesn't crash you and Kaz comes around and give you a handjob when you platinum it". Meaningless.

Making games isn't easy, but when you have budgets like PD does you shouldn't really expect to be able to just mail it in.

 

[eSZee]

Has anyone shown proof that GT6 actually runs 60fps@1080p? Are my special eyes deceiving me?

 

[TokoTurismo]

What's half assed about that one, S2 is a complete racing game package and the only thing you can criticize it on is that it's physics are not as good as your beloved GT...
You on the other hand have only the physics to be bragging about, as the rest of the package is still stuck in 1998 AKA half assed for today's standards.

But i guess you were just trolling

I don't really understand why you're considering me a GT fanboy, and I wasn't trolling either. To me, S2 is incompete and nothing more but a upgraded S1 with input lag added.

 

[Imari]

Has anyone shown proof that GT6 actually runs 60fps@1080p? Are my special eyes deceiving me?

No, and for some reason Digital Foundry *still* hasn't done analysis. Despite having the analysis of FM5 show up a day after release. And the analysis of the GT6 GTA demo turned up pretty fast too, of all things (a demo analysis?!).

It's a bit of a tin foil hat situation. I'd have to think that the article would create good traffic for them, there's plenty of people who would read it. So why not do it? Conspiracy theories, maaaan...

 

[Tornado]

No, practically is not the same. There is no external video trick involved in a already complaint full frame 1080i signal.

It's funny, because while checking up on information about this subject to make sure to respond to Devil240 properly, I found this:

The image resolution is not always about pixel counts, in the past GT4 made some tricks and was capable of display a 1080i/60fps image with the same power processing.

Again the incorrect 480 source and the "scaling" thing to explain a common interlacing process.

http://forums.pcsx2.net/Thread-Any-way-to-fix-1080i-mode-in-Gran-Turismo-4-NTSC?pid=267959#pid267959
http://forums.pcsx2.net/Thread-Any-way-to-fix-1080i-mode-in-Gran-Turismo-4-NTSC?pid=268842#pid268842

Absurd... and already explained and discussed.

"I already said that thing" is not an argument in and of itself just like reposting the exact same pictures over and over is not.

The game is not deinterlacing the image, that is the work of the tv. Field rendering is another thing.

Which is why I removed that bit from the post long before you responded.

What?... as explained previously there is not an exotic resolution output from the PS2, the signal is normalized internally by the console to a full 1080i frame before arriving to the tv.

I was referring to the 640 pixel width before the scaling by the console.





Though, again, the original point was that GT4's constant resolution changes is what causes the problems (unless you're using a PS3, at which point there are other potential problems).

When the increase of quality is evident in the video, that sounds much as an excuse to don't accept it.

So now you get the give advice on giving excuses for when evidence doesn't suit you?




I've got a question for you then. If direct video captures uploaded to YouTube isn't acceptable to measure sound quality for the purposes of comparison:

A direct video card sound recording played throught youtube to 2ch stereo it's the worst scenario possible and does not represent how the GT5 sound mix is perceived in a real multi channel setup.

Why is it acceptable for measuring video quality when YouTube does the exact same sort of compression and format changes with the video feed as it does the audio one; and similarly does different ones for each resolution?

More excuses... when the difference of the rendered detail is so clear between similar pictures a better source of them would not change anything. Enought is the definition.

Protip: When the discussion about the quality differences of an image is hinged partially on whether or not a TV can do a good job displaying the image, a picture of a TV screen comparing images isn't proof of differences in the raw image because the TV rendering will affect the quality of the images used in the comparison and it will affect it negatively.


In fact, here's a post that explains why you can't use a television output as the main proof for what the real image quality is:

About the photo, this is an example of the difference in image quality with the same game and different tvs:

I mean a practical proof, like mine, not a numbers proof that you does not seems to understand.

Ah. You mean like "GT5 in a true multichannel environment sounds like this" style of proof.

No, a 480p image is composed by a single field and at 1080i the images are compossed by two different fields.

GT4 480p (no AA)
640 x 480 = 307200 pixels (1 field at 60Hz, 1 frame)

GT4 1080i (no AA, lower color depth)
640 x 448 = 286720 pixels (1 field at 60Hz, *1/2 frame)

*1 frame = 640 x 896 => 573440 pixels

Deinterlacing does not mean coping lines to fill the gaps or scaling... there are many advanced methods of interpolation and frame blending, that are very common and used for many years. I don't want to extend much, just read:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deinterlaced#Deinterlacing_methods

My my. What is that I see here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deinterlaced#Field_extension_deinterlacing

Line doubling takes the lines of each interlaced field (consisting of only even or odd lines) and doubles them, filling the entire frame.

It's pretty much the same resolution with some clever image rendering used to double the lines shown on screen

This results in the video having a frame rate identical to the field rate, but each frame having half the vertical resolution, or resolution equal to that of each field that the frame was made from.

Deinterlacing an image to double the vertical lines isn't going to give it any more detail.

There is no antialiasing in those photos, just more pixel density or resolution.

"Pseudo" was the key word in that sentence.

The video signal from the PS2 is already 1080i complaint or could not be displayed on any tv.

And? I was talking about the 480p mode.

Is like how the PS2 games are rendered internally at 640x448 but the console outputs by default a full NTSC signal of 720x480 to made it compatible with any tv.

No it doesn't. Outside of the 1080i games, the PS2 never displays in an actual widescreen resolution. To change the FoV in games with a widescreen option, the system changes the pixel aspect ratio; either through an in game setting (like, say, GT3) or the system BIOs (like Test Drive Unlimited).

That type of resolution normalizing is never done by the tv.

This is a bit like that time where you claimed that CRT screens were incapable of displaying framerates outside of half intervals of their refresh rates. It's so amazingly incorrect that I'm stunned you said it.


Every pixel-based television is capable of scaling a standard resolution to it's native one unless it simply does not support the resolution in question (as in the 240p example). If it could not you would be forced to have a gutterboxed image (like if you connect a PSP to an HDTV). The PS2 upscales a rendered image as required to fit the 480p standard (which is 640x480 in this case), then the TV upscales that to the native resolution of the display. Helpfully shown here:

Native 1:1 pixel 720p on a 1080p tv:

Full screen 720p on a 1080p tv:

The second picture (which is a TV upscaling) is so common that it is rarer to find a TV that even lets you have the option of doing the first; and bringing it full circle, the second one can and does result in the loss of picture quality.

I'm not putting a lot of weight on the 60fps thing

That's why you've mentioned it several times to back up PD's technical wizardry despite GT5 rarely running at such a speed. The game framerate is just as much of a factor on how "good" a game looks as the technical effects and game resolution.

The Wipeout developers already utilized the same method (built into the PS3 SDK, no less) of showing a 1080p image that PD did with GT5 so there was nothing "theoretically impossible" about it; and the fact that the game doesn't have as many effects can easily be argued by the fact that it runs at a higher resolution (a full 1080p image) and a locked framerate (with the resolution adjusted to keep the framerate).

 

[eSZee]

No, and for some reason Digital Foundry *still* hasn't done analysis. Despite having the analysis of FM5 show up a day after release. And the analysis of the GT6 GTA demo turned up pretty fast too, of all things (a demo analysis?!).

It's a bit of a tin foil hat situation. I'd have to think that the article would create good traffic for them, there's plenty of people who would read it. So why not do it? Conspiracy theories, maaaan...

They need to hurry up cause I'm really really skeptical, even @720p doing 60fps.

 

[phil_75]

still getting up everyday to please the majority of us with his creation that we take a liking to. Still dragging himself to work everyday to repeat the same ominous features that the main point was always around, creating the best driving experience possible for the majority. Do you realize how boring it is to make the same thing, over and over, unless it is something you really like? That is why he returns, otherwise he would shoot himself in the foot and ask for forgiveness as to why he has been sucked into this. Now, if he does that last bit, then that may be why see a bit of some lack in MAJOR overhauls. But I think he puts in his time card every day and we get the best out of him..

And there's me thinking he does it because he needs work, like every other person.
He isn't on an oil rig, a trawler or digging holes for a living.

It must be such hard work for him, waking up in his mansion, choosing which supercar to go to work in today, oh, he's the boss so he can roll up whenever he likes or not even turn up at all if he doesn't feel like it.
Gets to PD towers where he has much less stress than other devs because he has virtually unlimited time and budget.

What's our agenda today, sit at a computer as millions and millions of others do with far more boring tedious work than PD have, travel the world mapping cars and tracks, or race in the Nurburgring 24hr, in the name of research obviously?

All whilst getting paid very handsomely!

Yes, such a hard life, poor Kaz, lets set up a fund for him!

 

[Swagger897]

And there's me thinking he does it because he needs work, like every other person.
He isn't on an oil rig, a trawler or digging holes for a living.

It must be such hard work for him, waking up in his mansion, choosing which supercar to go to work in today, oh, he's the boss so he can roll up whenever he likes or not even turn up at all if he doesn't feel like it.
Gets to PD towers where he has much less stress than other devs because he has virtually unlimited time and budget.

What's our agenda today, sit at a computer as millions and millions of others do with far more boring tedious work than PD have, travel the world mapping cars and tracks, or race in the Nurburgring 24hr, in the name of research obviously?

All whilst getting paid very handsomely!

Yes, such a hard life, poor Kaz, lets set up a fund for him!

Yes!! That's the spirit! Criticize every single person in life, only because they put in more effort than you ever will. Not just because of his financial situation he and you may not have in common, but at least the drive or passion one had to do for something. I'm sure that a Volkswagen R32 is not out of reach for people, nor a S2000 slightly tuned all by himself. Maybe a few gifts from ford and Chevy, but buying his own SL AMG Benz is reasonable if you manage money well. Some thank you gifts from Nissan for helping build the GT-R, and Porsche for the same. Maybe in your mind you think communism and socialism is a great plan, where I shall work harder than the rest, and given the same pay. Which ya know, is sorta like my tax system. I work, pay 20% of income to taxes, and then some s.o.b. gets that for not working so he can use it for his babies socks and maybe a new gold grill and some narcotics, along with whatever pleasures him for the new month..

And last I recall, he's never had to let go of an employee as there was a recent interview where he said the team of 30+ which made GT 1 now is around 150(edit).. Millions, pshhh. Going to work whenever? Grow up. Mansion, ya.. Good luck finding one of those anywhere on Japan! Most land hungry country next to the Netherlands... Not uncommon for CEO's of anything over there to live in bachelor pad sized homes..

Quite sad that people like you who probably work at a cafe for minimum have the balls to cry about the situation you put yourself to. Maybe you go start your own corp and become the greedy money infested slob that every other CEO is who puts little to no passion into something. But every once in a while, you find that one who is really I to it. Steve jobs didn't know millions of teens would buy his phone as the next trend. It was only intended to put blackberry out of business and woefully so it almost has. Ford never thought it would succeed in a market of 3,000 other car manufactures after plans were slipped, but his reliability, cost, and attitude for innovation kept him afloat. PD? Same thing. They just try to give us the best they got, and I like what they've given us. However, each of those companies have had their spills. Apple having factories using Chinese child labor, illegal in the states and over there, to cut costs. Ford dropping his minimum wage in order to maximize profits from decrease in Labor costs... PD have yet to show us their secret, but I couldn't care. They don't go out to attack anyone, but rather to convey their message, the real driving simulator, and I think that's what they archive strikingly every time I play the next game..

 

[MeanElf]

Yeah, someone drove them to create a better physics engine but I honestly don't think that was Kaz's doing...
...The impression I get from Kaz is that he's an auteur and the reason why Gran Turismo hasn't seen the major overhauls that it needs at this point is because they would go against what he wants to see from the game. He doesn't want to see cars damaged, so there's no damage model. He knows the studio doesn't have the sheer manpower to remodel every one of the standard cars but doesn't want to cut them because that goes against his personal vision of the game. So we have the inconsistent quality on that front.

Yes, I think he has the creative mindset too, but also enough of a business mind to keep things flowing. I'm sure that PD could be forced into a more productive frame of mind, but that's not who they are or how they work. Like Swagger says, there was an interview recently where it looked at the employee situation - they're all pretty happy there it seems. Not a bad thing to enjoy, seeing as most folks in a 'ultimate productive environment' don't...

So, my guess is you're thinking Sony forced Kazunori-san into action? Again, that just doesn't feel right, nor does it fit the culture of respect that Japan still operates under.

 

[alonsof1fan91]

So you like pretty half assed games?

I'm not a fan of PS2 cars/tracks either, but calling a game with ...

- great carreer mode
- 16 car grids
- good online mode and seasonal competitions
- dynamic weather, fuel usage/tyre wear and day/night cycle
- tons of content (Forza is the only game with more "premiums")
(- very good graphics for a PS3 game)

...half assed is a bit far streched IMO.

As @sumbrownkid said, name any other racer (on consoles and PC) which does all those things better.

 

[phil_75]

Yes!! That's the spirit! Criticize every single person in life

Eh ? What ?

I am criticising Kaz/PD for putting out another unfinished, half assed game, how does that turn into "every single person in life"?

As for the rest of that rant, you got issues my friend!

You PD apologists are hilarious!

 

[mister dog]

- great carreer mode

You serious?

- 16 car grids

How many races actually have 16 car grids? In any case even if they do you are only chasing the rabbit as the other 15 only serve as moving obstacles. But don't worry the rabbit waits for you in the last lap tough

- good online mode and seasonal competitions

I'm hearing a lot of people complain about the lack of customization for online races, and constant disconnects...

- dynamic weather, fuel usage/tyre wear and day/night cycle

True this is one the of the selling points of GT6, shame they didn't implement a single decent endurance race to enjoy these features though.

- tons of content (Forza is the only game with more "premiums")

70% of which was mostly ported over from GT5, which was 70% ported over from GT4...

(- very good graphics for a PS3 game)

GT5's were brighter and sharper to many...

...half assed is a bit far streched IMO.

Nope GT6 really is a half assed affort IMO

 

[phil_75]

http://www.themindofgame.com/2013/12/30/polyphony-digital-gran-turismos-fall-grace/

 

[MeanElf]

http://www.themindofgame.com/2013/12/30/polyphony-digital-gran-turismos-fall-grace/

Great, an opinion based on the opinions of others without actual hands-on experience...

Disclaimer: As of this writing, I have not played Gran Turismo 6 but I did order it a couple of days ago and it’s on the way. Everything written from here on is based on the impression I have gotten from reviewers and people who have played the game. So, grain of salt and all that.

Sorry, I didn't read past the fourth/fifth paragraph as he seemed to loose the thread of what he was on about.

 

[C_Raccoon23]

- great carreer mode

This stood out the most for me. Just no. Do yourself a favor and play GT4 if you want to know what a great career mode is. GT6's is only slightly better than GT5's.

 

[mister dog]

Great, an opinion based on the opinions of others without actual hands-on experience...

I told Phil the "but he hasn't even played the game" argument was gonna be used for that article. Be honest if you played GT5 till your fingers were sore, reading and seeing what this game is about is more than enough to form an opinion as it is just GT5 with updated physics...

 

[Imari]

And last I recall, he's never had to let go of an employee as there was a recent interview where he said the team of 30+ which made GT 1 now is around 350...

Wait, are you saying the PD team is now 350+ people? Source totally required on that one.

And any manager who hasn't had to let anyone go in 15 years is a terrible manager. I'm sorry, that's statistically so unlikely that I don't believe a word of it. Luck of the draw means you're going to get at least one dud in 15 years and you're going to have to politely ask them to gtfo.

On the other hand, it is common in Japan to just peer pressure people into quitting instead of firing them outright (kind of common in other countries too, it's cheaper for the employer) so that may be technically true but realistically false.

 

[Swagger897]

Eh ? What ?

I am criticising Kaz/PD for putting out another unfinished, half assed game, how does that turn into "every single person in life"?

As for the rest of that rant, you got issues my friend!

You PD apologists are hilarious!

You seemed to misunderstand/not read that entire post. You are bitching about a man who has/will work(ed) harder than you will. Mediocre gripes toward a man is rediculous.

And no I am not an "apologist", I just simply gave them my money for their product. I will gladly give them 60 dollars if the game is any good, just as I would gladly do with any other game that I like. That doesn't mean taking cheap shots at a man is acceptable for anyone, so some people just have to say "no that's not true... Opinion or not"

 

[MeanElf]

I told Phil the "but he hasn't even played the game" argument was gonna be used for that article. Be honest if you played GT5 till your fingers were sore, reading and seeing what this game is about is more than enough to form an opinion as it is just GT5 with updated physics...

Not really - I found the gameplay vids I saw pre-launch to be very inadequate compared to my actual experience with GT6 - indeed, I think it was yourself I told that to originally a week or so ago, but I could be wrong.

Anyway, the article's author seemed more interested in blathering on about the GT fans behaviour concerning Forza, not necessarily the game, so I gave up.

 

[mister dog]

Not really - I found the gameplay vids I saw pre-launch to be very inadequate compared to my actual experience with GT6 - indeed, I think it was yourself I told that to originally a week or so ago, but I could be wrong.

Anyway, the article's author seemed more interested in blathering on about the GT fans behaviour concerning Forza, not necessarily the game, so I gave up.

Yup indeed that was me

 

[Imari]

You seemed to misunderstand/not read that entire post. You are bitching about a man who has/will work(ed) harder than you will. Mediocre gripes toward a man is rediculous.

He can work as hard as he likes, it's the results that count.

I give props to anyone who produces a good game, regardless of whether it took them an hour or ten years of 14 hour days. The reverse also applies.

Hard work in and of itself means nothing if you're not achieving much.

 

[Swagger897]

Wait, are you saying the PD team is now 350+ people? Source totally required on that one.

And any manager who hasn't had to let anyone go in 15 years is a terrible manager. I'm sorry, that's statistically so unlikely that I don't believe a word of it. Luck of the draw means you're going to get at least one dud in 15 years and you're going to have to politely ask them to gtfo.

On the other hand, it is common in Japan to just peer pressure people into quitting instead of firing them outright (kind of common in other countries too, it's cheaper for the employer) so that may be technically true but realistically false.

https://www.gtplanet.net/polyphony-digital-moves-50-employees-to-fukuoka-japan/

Ugh... Guess the 50 stood out but the three, hell I'm clueless where I got that.. Anyways. It's probably more than that (150) as they did higher for gt6

He can work as hard as he likes, it's the results that count.

I give props to anyone who produces a good game, regardless of whether it took them an hour or ten years of 14 hour days. The reverse also applies.

Hard work in and of itself means nothing if you're not achieving much.

Main point being, he is doing "good deeds" by introducing kids to racing..(not to mothers at least).. Nissan academy, never would've ever happen. Never would the 36 or so kids who are current graduates be where they are now, without GT. I know some dream of being in the WEC at Le Mans, and some dream of F1 gp's and there are some from that program there (almost).

Car makers would still look at a games as a games. Not advertisement or test beds for general public usage.. Key point is, he's done a lot more good that I've noticed, than others who hate him for what he has..

 

[Swagger897]

Delete

 

[mister dog]

Main point being, he is doing "good deeds" by introducing kids to racing

You basically summed up the GT series there
And the main frustration of us gentlemen racers also

 

[Jawehawk]

Technical wizards? Hardly. They're complete morons to go with an even higher native resolution than GT5 had. Basically making sure that any frame rate problems GT5 had, also exists in GT6.

The only thing PD does extremely well, is being incompetent.