Potato...

[BradleyLove]

With complete sincerity and good will, which is a bit unusual for me, in my opinion those stats don't look to bad at all.
I'll admit I'm going to be pretty embarrassed if you want to link up mine as a comparison, but when I look at those all I see is someone who just plays the game and takes it as it comes.
I've long thought that there's probably some people out there that might be so obsessed with their stats that they couldn't go to bed with a negative mark on there permanent record, but me personally if I get a couple of bad results in a row I'm not going to game the system and trail the field in a race C just to get some points, I'm going to crack the sads and go to bed.
Every single time I hit the enter race button I go out out there and give it all I've got, for better or for worse.
In my experience when you get knocked down a rung or two, if you want to keep giving it your all then often getting your rankings back up can turn into a bloodbath as you compete against lower ranked players who may not share your level of ability or sense of sportsmanship.

Thank you. And you’re right, I play it as it comes and if I have a night like last night (no clean races, no finishes) then I take a breath, turn off GTS and treat the next day as a fresh start.

I’d rather quit a race, than “drive angry” and potentially compromise the race for others.

Edit: and given how easy it is to “game” SR, someone having a perfect 99 SR permanently doesn’t necessarily mean they’re a super clean racer.

 

[BallPtPenTheif]

I’d rather quit a race, than “drive angry” and potentially compromise the race for others.

And I greatly appreciate your choice to take your anger elsewhere, I wish more people would take responsibility for their temperament both in real life and in the game.

However, quitting a race does demonstrate a poor temperment for competition. Temperament and composure is an important part of any competitive activity so I think it's fair that drop outs would be reflected someone's SR score.

 

[BradleyLove]

And I greatly appreciate your choice to take your anger elsewhere, I wish more people would take responsibility for their temperament both in real life and in the game.

However, quitting a race does demonstrate a poor temperment for competition. Temperament and composure is an important part of any competitive activity so I think it's fair that drop outs would be reflected someone's SR score.

Absolutely agree with the bolded.

Don’t agree with it demonstrating a poor temperament for competition—sometimes you’ve had a **** day at work, or you’re still grieving the loss of your dad, or you’re still getting over your marriage failing, all of which will affect your temperament on any given day.

Just saying...

 

[BallPtPenTheif]

Don’t agree with it demonstrating a poor temperament for competition—sometimes you’ve had a **** day at work, or you’re still grieving the loss of your dad, or you’re still getting over your marriage failing, all of which will affect your temperament on any given day.

Just saying...

It's totally human for things to affect each other so I know that this will come off like I'm a sociopath. But the competition and life's problems are just not related. I actually use training and competition as ways to recenter myself away from life's stressors because being in that moment, in that headspace, automatically requires my attention and emotions become superfluous ideas that will not help me in my situation. Sorry for being vague, I train in Brazilian jiu-jitsu more than I sim race so I'm really speaking from that competitive perspective.

 

[Groundfish]

It's totally human for things to affect each other so I know that this will come off like I'm a sociopath. But the competition and life's problems are just not related. I actually use training and competition as ways to recenter myself away from life's stressors because being in that moment, in that headspace, automatically requires my attention and emotions become superfluous ideas that will not help me in my situation. Sorry for being vague, I train in Brazilian jiu-jitsu more than I sim race so I'm really speaking from that competitive perspective.

Sportsmanship seems to be lacking from what I have seen online from much of the young gaming populace.
When I first got semi competent driving this game I did some online lobbies (random) and it’s very telling how people win and stay lose once BOOM gone. Or punt next race and gone. Extremely rare for a person to congratulate someone on a win. I learned quickly random lobbies are not the place to be. Talking to a friend that is a gamer more than a sim racer he says that’s how it is for many gamers-do anything to win, and zero spirit of sportsmanship, in actual fact I would suspect they have never learned to deal with competition irl.
If you have a bit of a history irl of competition, you understand competition better. Hey we all play a game and sometimes you win and sometimes lose, at the end you shake hands. Breaking rules repeatedly irl gets you a rep you don’t want, and maybe consequences you don’t want...hehehe
I really agree that one thing I really enjoy about racing people in this game is it demands ones attention in a way that life’s stressors melt away for that brief period. Racing ai just doesn’t cut it, so what if you wreck an ai car?
In game if you wreck someone you know they have video if they choose, and they will have your handle and everything.
Sport mode, it’s almost a form of meditation...Sort of...lol

 

[RaceFace85]

The weight transfer to the rear tyres while accelerating out of the corners feels very realistic. The unrealistic power oversteering is gone. You also feel how the LSD is working now. Before the update the LSD with stock setup felt like 100% locked.

Before the update you needed much talent in adapting to a game. Now the cars in GT Sport just behave like driving a real car. I'm very happy now.

 

[GordonS]

Lamborghini Aventador: now it's impossible to launch a doughnut rotation with Sports:Soft tyres on even ground. Only with the handbrake it's possible. Sports:Hards seem to perform fine circle-wise. Checking things in YouTube, it seems Aventador can be circle-burnout quite easily - but of course, we don't know the conditions/ tyres in those situations..
Can anybody say if this was the case before the update v1.39? For some reason I never liked the Ave to really test it out earlier in GTS. I wonder if it was the horrendous understeer also back then.
p.s. Thanks for the comments above.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

Racing ai just doesn’t cut it, so what if you wreck an ai car?
In game if you wreck someone you know they have video if they choose, and they will have your handle and everything.
Sport mode, it’s almost a form of meditation...Sort of...lol

What difference does it make who or what is controlling a competitors car as far as a racers own personal desire or objective as to how they want to race or how clean they approach racing whatever competition happens to be on the track?

I know when racing offline against the AI my objective is to race that race just as clean and contact free as I would racing humans online. I initiate and make contact with another car then I screwed up regardless of who or what is driving the car I contacted.

I do not require the threat of being called out online to change the way I approach racing or the competition. Actually I find many times the AI is a better opponent as they at least seem to make an effort to race cleanly which I can say there are online human racers that I cannot say the the same about.

 

[Groundfish]

What difference does it make who or what is controlling a competitors car as far as a racers own personal desire or objective as to how they want to race or how clean they approach racing whatever competition happens to be on the track?

I know when racing offline against the AI my objective is to race that race just as clean and contact free as I would racing humans online. I initiate and make contact with another car then I screwed up regardless of who or what is driving the car I contacted.

I do not require the threat of being called out online to change the way I approach racing or the competition. Actually I find many times the AI is a better opponent as they at least seem to make an effort to race cleanly which I can say there are online human racers that I cannot say the the same about.

Well in sport mode you can’t just hit reset if you wreck can you?
Ai is not a ‘competitor’ it’s just a computer. There’s no rating on the line.
I’d rather hotlap than race AI personally.
After enjoying sport mode AI is just a bore to be frank.
I think AI is good if you’ve never driven a track...
I wouldn’t really call driving with ai on track racing tbh. Jmo.
Further with regards to racing (which means against real people)
I personally use etiquette which I have done my best to learn from real racing.
I think there’s a lot of varying opinions in the sim world, some people seem to think insufficient overlap means the leadcar should leave space. I don’t.
If you have corner rights you have corner rights.
There’s no reason for me not to shut the door or exit where I want. I’m not gonna compromise my exit. I’ll blend back onto the racing line and take normal exit.
Imo in racing sport mode at high B S and above that’s standard.
In real life also.
Contact happens in racing. When I have rights I excercise them.
If someone sticks a wheel in they’ll get punted just like irl. People learn.
Also re threat of being called out?
I wasn’t thinking of that at all.
I couldn’t give a crap about that. The fact is you have to treat others ALL OTHERS the same in sport mode.
What I said has nothing to do with ‘calling out’
To me that’s bs.
Drive your best, and things will work out.
I think studying real etiquette and understanding the concepts of it translates better into sport mode than just avoid contact at all costs and always leave space.
I am always 90-99 sr.
At BS and above, it’s RACING in Sport Mode.
Drive right treat others as you wish to be treated. Know when to defend and when to relinquish a spot.
Everyone makes mistakes. Apologize when you do and be more careful next time.
But when it’s time to race, race!
I wouldn’t call driving with ai racing in the way it is against humans.

 

[BallPtPenTheif]

The weight transfer to the rear tyres while accelerating out of the corners feels very realistic.

Is it though? The GR3 Porsche exits like a front drive car now, more akin to the Scirocco. Sure, if all of my weight is to the rear when I accelerate out, I should get understeer as my front wheels would be lifting causing me to lose some handling. but if I'm trail braking properly and accelerating with a more balanced car that's planted, I shouldn't be understeering as badly as it is.

Should the coasting gap in the corner be that far behind the apex of the turn? Right now I'm exiting some of these cars like I'm driving a Dodge Hellcat on a road course.

 

[GOTMAXPOWER]

What utter nonsense.

Using SR stats to try and paint a picture of someone’s driving is flawed at best, insulting at worst. And of course doesn’t take into account quitting races after being punted off into a barrier, ending up last and receiving a 5 second penalty for the pleasure.

Using Kudos Prime stats to try and discredit an opinion is pretty low.

Your opinion was that the new physics were encouraging contact, I don't think it is low to point out that the races with people who crash more have a lot more incidents, regardless of the physics. That applies to everybody in your races not just you personally.

 

[dabz343]

If PD's intention is to alter GTS physics towards realism and offer drivers an intuitive experience, then I'm all for it. However, if PD is somehow coloring game physics--sacrificing realism--then I have no choice but to reject this direction.

So in an attempt to simplify the physics evaluations, I propose drivers focus on answering this key question with the help of this visual. Btw, evaluating the underlying game physics is very different than evaluating the handling of a particular car. Of course PD must get both right in order to achieve some convincing level of realism, but for the sake of clarity, let's keep them separated as far from each other as possible.

So here's the question--how faithfully is this moment in time translated in GTS? This is an extreme case, but my intent is to illustrate to you that this is the pivotal moment in which all the bits (lines of code) must fit together in harmony and shine (or fail).

In the real world, the sensations that are physically alive at this moment at the tires (yes, only the minute 4 patches) is the dominant force that have informed our intuition of what is REAL at the limit. So, I ask once again for all those that are evaluating the underlying physics--how faithfully is this moment in time translated in GTS?

To be fair, there is a lot going on here and the task of faithfully reproducing this moment in a PS4 game is unrealistic. So perhaps a more relevant question is, what sort of color do you prefer for your game physics? For me, my preference is not for a particular hue but for the saturation--or lack there of.

Reward drivers that have the skill to tease out speed at these moments PD. Don't oversimplify this moment so the novices feel undeservingly satisfied...

 

[Groundfish]

@dabz343

Race photos in game are really good. I’d say pretty faithfully.

 

[AUTISTICBOYX]

If PD's intention is to alter GTS physics towards realism and offer drivers an intuitive experience, then I'm all for it. However, if PD is somehow coloring game physics--sacrificing realism--then I have no choice but to reject this direction.

So in an attempt to simplify the physics evaluations, I propose drivers focus on answering this key question with the help of this visual. Btw, evaluating the underlying game physics is very different than evaluating the handling of a particular car. Of course PD must get both right in order to achieve some convincing level of realism, but for the sake of clarity, let's keep them separated as far from each other as possible.

So here's the question--how faithfully is this moment in time translated in GTS? This is an extreme case, but my intent is to illustrate to you that this is the pivotal moment in which all the bits (lines of code) must fit together in harmony and shine (or fail).

In the real world, the sensations that are physically alive at this moment at the tires (yes, only the minute 4 patches) is the dominant force that have informed our intuition of what is REAL at the limit. So, I ask once again for all those that are evaluating the underlying physics--how faithfully is this moment in time translated in GTS?

View attachment 826029


To be fair, there is a lot going on here and the task of faithfully reproducing this moment in a PS4 game is unrealistic. So perhaps a more relevant question is, what sort of color do you prefer for your game physics? For me, my preference is not for a particular hue but for the saturation--or lack there of.

Reward drivers that have the skill to tease out speed at these moments PD. Don't oversimplify this moment so the novices feel undeservingly satisfied...

You have been grossly mislead in the first place if you think that GT sport represents the hardcore simulation genre, expecting physics inside this spectrum.

 

[dabz343]

Did I ask about photo realism Groundfish?

Your comment just sums it up for you as an individual.

 

[dabz343]

You have been grossly mislead in the first place if you think that GT sport represents the hardcore simulation genre, expecting physics inside this spectrum.

Oh I'm not misled. Those that think 1.39 is realism are.

You should try reading my post without bias, it presents a different perspective.

Where can I enable the "Ghosting Lapped Cars" feature in this thread?

 

[BallPtPenTheif]

You have been grossly mislead in the first place if you think that GT sport represents the hardcore simulation genre, expecting physics inside this spectrum.

He never made such a statement, you're misscontextualizing his issue. For what purpose, I don't know.

 

[dabz343]

He never made such a statement, you're misscontextualizing his issue. For what purpose, I don't know.

The reason for misrepresenting others' views and being a general annoyance to others here on this forum and on track in GTS is--Dunning Kruger effect. They think they have overlap, they think there's a gap, they think they won't understeer through the apex, they think they are claiming their right to the corner, they think they never divebomb...and then aggressively blame the other guy for bad racecraft and protest their delinquency.

This community needs a PURGE.

 

[Groundfish]

@dabz343 I dunno, in the races I have done bad behavior remains an exception rather than a rule.
Further, why can’t folks who are less serious drive how they wish?’
Isn’t that why the game has a ranking system?
Tbh I think it’s pretty ingenious. There’s no reason you or I can dictate a persons gaming that would be ridiculous.
It’s a video game-the object is fun.
For me fun involves competition but I seriously doubt that’s the case for every single player man.

 

[MaxAttack]

@dabz343 I dunno, in the races I have done bad behavior remains an exception rather than a rule.
Further, why can’t folks who are less serious drive how they wish?’
Isn’t that why the game has a ranking system?
Tbh I think it’s pretty ingenious. There’s no reason you or I can dictate a persons gaming that would be ridiculous.
It’s a video game-the object is fun.
For me fun involves competition but I seriously doubt that’s the case for every single player man.

all my this.

i mean, if you don't think half the guys in your sport lobby are way too stoned to put in their best performance, you can't have talked to that many other racers imo. Treating every race like a do or die championship decider where everyone's on the ragged edge at 100% every lap is kind of asking a lot of the 15 other guys in the lobby who probably just did a full day's work and just want to drive and battle.

 

[FPV MIC]

If PD's intention is to alter GTS physics towards realism and offer drivers an intuitive experience, then I'm all for it. However, if PD is somehow coloring game physics--sacrificing realism--then I have no choice but to reject this direction.

So in an attempt to simplify the physics evaluations, I propose drivers focus on answering this key question with the help of this visual. Btw, evaluating the underlying game physics is very different than evaluating the handling of a particular car. Of course PD must get both right in order to achieve some convincing level of realism, but for the sake of clarity, let's keep them separated as far from each other as possible.

So here's the question--how faithfully is this moment in time translated in GTS? This is an extreme case, but my intent is to illustrate to you that this is the pivotal moment in which all the bits (lines of code) must fit together in harmony and shine (or fail).

In the real world, the sensations that are physically alive at this moment at the tires (yes, only the minute 4 patches) is the dominant force that have informed our intuition of what is REAL at the limit. So, I ask once again for all those that are evaluating the underlying physics--how faithfully is this moment in time translated in GTS?

View attachment 826029


To be fair, there is a lot going on here and the task of faithfully reproducing this moment in a PS4 game is unrealistic. So perhaps a more relevant question is, what sort of color do you prefer for your game physics? For me, my preference is not for a particular hue but for the saturation--or lack there of.

Reward drivers that have the skill to tease out speed at these moments PD. Don't oversimplify this moment so the novices feel undeservingly satisfied...

I haven't had a chance to try out the new physics yet so I won't comment on that, and to be fair you did mention in this picture it's an extreme case and would be hard to reproduce, but this is just too extreme.

This is what the photographer (Peter Fox) said about the picture:

''I was at Degner 1 for second free practice on Friday and I went there because I know the cars really load up going through a little compression. I have been there for a number of years before, and I have shots from earlier times, but never have I seen a car loaded up like that.''

''The other cars were going through on the same line but even the ones that were fully loaded up, the attitude of the cars was different – and you could see the front wheel rising in the air. What is particularly interesting is that the rear wheel is massively loaded up and the front wheel is still mostly on the ground. So their suspension is working well.''

''If you look at the next shot, which is out of focus, the car is the complete opposite. The suspension is raised and it’s like the car is momentarily off the ground there. It is amazing how it resets itself again.''

What the team said:

''We can see how the whole sidewall if distorted and I am sure there is a dynamic there in the way the camera has just caught the peak of that, making it look particularly extreme.''


How is anyone supposed to recreate that sort of scenario in any video game?

Source: https://au.motorsport.com/f1/news/a...hotograph-that-got-f1-talking-841343/3002414/

 

[MaxAttack]

I haven't had a chance to try out the new physics yet so I won't comment on that, and to be fair you did mention in this picture it's an extreme case and would be hard to reproduce, but this is just too extreme.

This is what the photographer (Peter Fox) said about the picture:

''I was at Degner 1 for second free practice on Friday and I went there because I know the cars really load up going through a little compression. I have been there for a number of years before, and I have shots from earlier times, but never have I seen a car loaded up like that.''

''The other cars were going through on the same line but even the ones that were fully loaded up, the attitude of the cars was different – and you could see the front wheel rising in the air. What is particularly interesting is that the rear wheel is massively loaded up and the front wheel is still mostly on the ground. So their suspension is working well.''

''If you look at the next shot, which is out of focus, the car is the complete opposite. The suspension is raised and it’s like the car is momentarily off the ground there. It is amazing how it resets itself again.''

What the team said:

''We can see how the whole sidewall if distorted and I am sure there is a dynamic there in the way the camera has just caught the peak of that, making it look particularly extreme.''


How is anyone supposed to recreate that sort of scenario in any video game?

Source: https://au.motorsport.com/f1/news/a...hotograph-that-got-f1-talking-841343/3002414/

I heard Star Citizen is gonna have dynamic suspension compression and advanced tire compound physics, providing you bought the £1500 "Space Senna" package and your PC is capable of supporting dynamic ray tracing in 16K at 240fps...

 

[dabz343]

I think the IQ level here has plummeted.

I haven't had a chance to try out the new physics yet so I won't comment on that, and to be fair you did mention in this picture it's an extreme case and would be hard to reproduce, but this is just too extreme.

This is what the photographer (Peter Fox) said about the picture:

''I was at Degner 1 for second free practice on Friday and I went there because I know the cars really load up going through a little compression. I have been there for a number of years before, and I have shots from earlier times, but never have I seen a car loaded up like that.''

''The other cars were going through on the same line but even the ones that were fully loaded up, the attitude of the cars was different – and you could see the front wheel rising in the air. What is particularly interesting is that the rear wheel is massively loaded up and the front wheel is still mostly on the ground. So their suspension is working well.''

''If you look at the next shot, which is out of focus, the car is the complete opposite. The suspension is raised and it’s like the car is momentarily off the ground there. It is amazing how it resets itself again.''

What the team said:

''We can see how the whole sidewall if distorted and I am sure there is a dynamic there in the way the camera has just caught the peak of that, making it look particularly extreme.''


How is anyone supposed to recreate that sort of scenario in any video game?

Source: https://au.motorsport.com/f1/news/a...hotograph-that-got-f1-talking-841343/3002414/

First, it's good t see how some here are actually able to relate to someone's thought without just spinning it into their own tantrum.

Second, fair play to you for citing my disclaimer--this is a picture of an extreme case. But I decided to post it to be provocative, in hopes of giving those that have yet to evaluate the new physics something to ponder.

In response to your question, "How is anyone supposed to recreate that sort of scenario in any video game? ", I will just copy and paste what I wrote under the photo in my original post. I don't think I need to elaborate.

"To be fair, there is a lot going on here and the task of faithfully reproducing this moment in a PS4 game is unrealistic. So perhaps a more relevant question is, what sort of color do you prefer for your game physics? For me, my preference is not for a particular hue but for the saturation--or lack there of.

Reward drivers that have the skill to tease out speed at these moments PD. Don't oversimplify this moment so the novices feel undeservingly satisfied..."

 

[MaxAttack]

I think the IQ level here has plummeted.



First, it's good t see how some here are actually able to relate to someone's thought without just spinning it into their own tantrum.

Second, fair play to you for citing my disclaimer--this is a picture of an extreme case. But I decided to post it to be provocative, in hopes of giving those that have yet to evaluate the new physics something to ponder.

In response to your question, "How is anyone supposed to recreate that sort of scenario in any video game? ", I will just copy and paste what I wrote under the photo in my original post. I don't think I need to elaborate.

"To be fair, there is a lot going on here and the task of faithfully reproducing this moment in a PS4 game is unrealistic. So perhaps a more relevant question is, what sort of color do you prefer for your game physics? For me, my preference is not for a particular hue but for the saturation--or lack there of.

Reward drivers that have the skill to tease out speed at these moments PD. Don't oversimplify this moment so the novices feel undeservingly satisfied..."

But... Kaz said Driving is for everyone...

:'(

 

[dabz343]

all my this.

i mean, if you don't think half the guys in your sport lobby are way too stoned to put in their best performance, you can't have talked to that many other racers imo. Treating every race like a do or die championship decider where everyone's on the ragged edge at 100% every lap is kind of asking a lot of the 15 other guys in the lobby who probably just did a full day's work and just want to drive and battle.

I knew my Dunning Kruger comment would entice those to show themselves, come on--who else thinks GTS is just one long BONG session with a brick of schwag?

 

[MaxAttack]

I knew my Dunning Kruger comment would entice those to show themselves, come on--who else thinks GTS is just one long BONG session with a brick of schwag?

No, no, no, no Dunning Kruger here. I know exactly how slow I am, thankyou very much.

But I have as much right to enjoy the game as a B rank driver, only taking it seriously, as someone in A+ who really devotes themself, don't I? Doesn't someone who is E rank, doesn't touch Sport mode and only does Saudi Arab lobby drag racing, have that same right?

Like I said; driving is for everyone. I struggle to think of a driving game that does as good a job of balancing its appeal to as broad a player base as GTS does.

PS: Your PM confused me. No worries, I guess?

 

[Groundfish]

But... Kaz said Driving is for everyone...

:'(

👍

 

[dabz343]

No, no, no, no Dunning Kruger here. I know exactly how slow I am, thankyou very much.

But I have as much right to enjoy the game as a B rank driver, only taking it seriously, as someone in A+ who really devotes themself, don't I? Doesn't someone who is E rank, doesn't touch Sport mode and only does Saudi Arab lobby drag racing, have that same right?

Like I said; driving is for everyone. I struggle to think of a driving game that does as good a job of balancing its appeal to as broad a player base as GTS does.

PS: Your PM confused me. No worries, I guess?

If you do not suffer from delusional disorder (Dunning-Kruger is a specific form of DD), then why are you insisting--that I am against the idea that driving is everyone?

Where in reality have I suggest, implied or directly stated such view? If you cannot provide clear evidence for your tantrum, then you must honorably and respectfully be swayed by the argument that--such claims should be withheld.

And since you cannot come to this type of analysis and conclusion on your own, I welcome you to the Dunning Kruger crowd...But everything will be ok, it will be alright, things will naturally work out...

 

[Groundfish]

@dabz343
Do you think the community needs a purge or driving is for everyone?
Nevermind.

All
Back on topic. So I heard they improved the clutch.
Anyone have a take on whether it’s worth spending on a shifter?

 

[MaxAttack]

If you do not suffer from delusional disorder (Dunning-Kruger is a specific form of DD), then why are you insisting--that I am against the idea that driving is everyone?

Where in reality have I suggest, implied or directly stated such view? If you cannot provide clear evidence for your tantrum, then you must honorably and respectfully be swayed by the argument that--such claims should be withheld.

And since you cannot come to this type of analysis and conclusion on your own, I welcome you to the Dunning Kruger crowd...But everything will be ok, it will be alright, things will naturally work out...

You expressed that you didn't like how the game didn't replicate compressions like the (as you admitted, very extreme) example you posted, and wrote;

Reward drivers that have the skill to tease out speed at these moments PD. Don't oversimplify this moment so the novices feel undeservingly satisfied.

That's where I inferred that you'd prefer the game have a narrower appeal, skewed to the higher end of the skill curve. I doubt that game would sell very well. I think it's better that PD have genuinely tried to give a good experience to players at every end of the spectrum. That's a brave undertaking and I think they have done excellently; my brother who is very slow and uninterested in racing still enjoys driving laps of Nordschleife, I enjoy the game at B rank, and there are plenty of top guys who still main GTS and believe it's the best competition out there.

And don't worry about me - I am more than capable of diagnosing my own shortcomings. I don't eat enough kerb, qualify badly, miss braking points and get hypnotised by cars I'm following.

Still basically the fastest guy in the universe in the Lancia 037 Evo 2 on DiRT 4 so I can feel good about myself.