Potato...

[VFOURMAX1]

Motion rigs and but kickers - immersion yes though tricking your senses, but not much to do with realism.

That said - in a game i like to take immersion over realism most of the time.

If you are not looking for the feeling of realism and the feel that you are actually driving or operating the car you are controlling then what exactly are you trying to immerse yourself in if not the feeling of really driving the car?

And yes any any immersion stimulating your senses that you are actually participating another activity that you are not physically doing then yes tricking your senses into thinking that what you are doing is what immersion is.

I am not trying to provoke either but everything you are saying is contradicting itself. What exactly is YOUR definition of immersion?

 

[Groundfish]

Shouldnt even comment to not provoke, but the very post you wrote underlines immersion has nothing (much) to do with realism. Its about making one THINK it feels real. Its like image marketing. Its so relatively easy to trick human mind and senses to think something is happening when its not. Immersion can make you feel like an alien robot asteroid even if theres no way its realistic.

Motion rigs and but kickers - immersion yes though tricking your senses, but not much to do with realism.

That said - in a game i like to take immersion over realism most of the time.

I agree, just because I am immersed in an activity doesn’t mean it has anything to do with reality.
Perfect example is Dirt Rally vs Dirt Rally 2 ffb.
I love both those games, but the ffb is different.
Dr2 as I understand it ffb and physics wise was developed with a lot of input from pro drivers.
I mean if it was real to shake the wheel every time a tire runs over a half inch diameter pebble I’d expect it in ffb.
Dirt Rally is super immersive due to the ffb, but real driving on a slippery surface feels nothing like that.
It’s quite immersive though.
For me one thing is GT Sport has spoiled us on graphics. I can turn on some games and can no longer get immersed due to the graphics deficiencies even if the physics and ffb is immersive.
For single player dr and dr2 are AWESOME imo at getting me immersed...

 

[Haitauer]

If you are not looking for the feeling of realism and the feel that you are actually driving or operating the car you are controlling then what exactly are you trying to immerse yourself in if not the feeling of really driving the car?

And yes any any immersion stimulating your senses that you are actually participating another activity that you are not physically doing then yes tricking your senses into thinking that what you are doing is what immersion is.

I am not trying to provoke either but everything you are saying is contradicting itself. What exactly is YOUR definition of immersion?

Even this turned upside down.. original conversation wasnt about immersion - about immersion we agree, but what IS realistic and what makes you just THINK its realistic is the differencense. My opinion is, that many (most even?) Gamers mix realism and physics to immersion. Many games are immersive without being realistic and sadly many games try being realistic and loose the immersion.

 

[GTPorsche]

Is that the theory then, that PD changed the physics model to suit the Supra? Maybe with pressure from Toyota? If true that is a real load of 🤬

I mean, they can adjust physics for an individual car if necessary, so no.

 

[fastone371]

I mean, they can adjust physics for an individual car if necessary, so no.

It seems that the Supra is really the only car that improved by leaps and bounds although I have not driven every car yet.

 

[IncredibleMind]

On a related note, I bought Assetto Corsa the PS4 version today as it was only $29.99. I haven’t delved into it on the level I have GT Sport but a quick assessment/comparison.

1. Nowhere near the amount of content as GT Sport. However this isn’t necessarily a bad thing as I prefer quality over quantity.

2. Everything being spoken upon about the sensation of g-force is handled with EXTREME properness by AC. At the end of the day PD clearly has no idea what they are doing in this department and they severely need some outside help/influence, even WORSE than they did with engine sounds.

a. The cockpit/screen does indeed shift backwards and forward unlike the stiff/static mechanic in GT. This would have been written off as an arcade mechanic but it is necessary for the sensation of speed.

b. Even the car/cockpit itself rattles once you reach certain speeds. Once you experience how naturally applied it is in AC you won’t be able to help but have extreme disgust for whoever is making these design choices at PD. WHAT ARE THEY THINKING?

c. It is arguable that the graphics IN MOTION are better in AC than even GT Sport for the above mentioned reasons more than anything. If PD has this corrected it would smoke AC...in fact I think it would smoke ACC even on a high powered rig as well.

3. The physics are indeed better in ACC, however these are all subtleties that PD can correct imo.

4. The cockpit view adjustments in AC are EXACTLY what I fantasized being in GT Sport.

My ultimate assessment is that PD has one of the slickest interfaces and some of the prettiest graphics but it is all for nothing until they fix the game’s issues.

It’s crazy that I was complaining about the road surfaces only.

Strangely enough that MAY OR MAY NOT be an issue but it takes an extreme backseat to their impractical decision to keep the car almost completely rattle/vibration free no matter the speeds or inertia acting upon the car. I say that because the track I drove on in AC felt relatively flat but I never experienced the break in immersion that I did with GT Sport due to it’s extreme lifelessness. My strong guess is that PD actually has the track surfacing correct but due to their stiff views it’s not conveyed properly.

PD fix this stuff please. You could literally live up to your tag if these things are corrected. None of the things I’ve mentioned are even overly complicated, but they are simple essentials imo. But who am I? I admit to never racing a day in my life.

 

[GTPorsche]

It seems that the Supra is really the only car that improved by leaps and bounds although I have not driven every car yet.

All of the road cars benefited from the physics change.

 

[gtpierre]

At the end of the day, there is no point arguing, everything is ok. Just keep in mind that it will change in a few days/weeks. Maybe some will like it better, some less. And then it will change again. It's ok. We are just playing a game calling itself "the real driving simulator".

It doesn't be to be realistic, it doesn't even need to be about driving. It just needs to make people give their money to PD.

Who care about GT sport physics ? Stop driving, you can take pictures in sooo many different landscapes. You won't complain about physics, lag, penalty system, servers crashing, lack of tracks (...)

 

[zzz_pt]

So GTS is going in the trash because you don’t have the speed or the talent to be a World Champ. Thats my takeaway from this.

He said he would stay in GTS if the physics of GT3 in particular were as good as ACC's.

I also believe @iFerrari could qualify for live events if he'd put his mind into it. He's pretty fast already, even disliking how the cars drive.

 

[Dimitri]

After this physics patch, does anyone

Even this turned upside down.. original conversation wasnt about immersion - about immersion we agree, but what IS realistic and what makes you just THINK its realistic is the differencense. My opinion is, that many (most even?) Gamers mix realism and physics to immersion. Many games are immersive without being realistic and sadly many games try being realistic and loose the immersion.

Good FFb is both immersive and realistic. Since you lose a lot of information of being in a moving car, you need to feel things through the steering wheel that wouldn’t be realistic un the sense that you’d feel them through the wheel in an actual car.

In an ideal world, FFB would have two sliders:

1) strength
2) immersiveness, allowing you to add additional information that one wouldn’t necessarily feel through the week in a real car

To me, there are some improvements in the new model, but also some detractors. I still feel that overall especially the racing cars in GTS are still too predictable.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

I still feel that overall especially the racing cars in GTS are still too predictable.

And to an extent I think this is by design and the average gamer buying and playing GTS on a casual have fun racing the AI basis it is EXACTLY the way they prefer the cars to behave.

These are not the racers that spend hours practicing to find that other 2 tenths of a second but the guy that pops on once a week for 30 minutes and races the AI on his favorite tracks in the game.

I still think PD is trying to straddle the fence to be a game anyone can pick up and enjoy but yet good enough that more serious players can enjoy racing online.

 

[Haitauer]

I think N street cars are pretty nice to drive now - more enjoyable than gr3/gr4.

 

[DPereira_2909]

Just tried the Italia GT3 with various set ups after just using the SF and the 962 the few times I played since the update, and I got to say, man do the Gr.3 cars feel awful with the new physics, weight distribution and traction is completely off imo. I just hope that, if this is to fit the rumoured rain update, if the weather is static revert the physics back to 1.38 spec in the dry.

 

[ScottPuss20]

It's a real shame that Assetto Corsa feels like crap on a controller. Plenty of people are praising the physics but if you can't experience them properly, what's the point? At least in Gran Turismo it feels like you're driving the car - which makes it more involving for the player. In Assetto Corsa there is a distinct disconnect between your actions and the game's response. In Project Cars 2 it is less significant but still - if you can't experience the physics engine as the developers intended, it's hard for me to justify the purchase. You can have the best physics engine ever created but if the controller can't exploit the limits, it's a poorly developed game in my opinion. Gran Turismo allows you to exploit the limits better and be more competitive amongst wheel users.

 

[MisterOne77]

Just tried the Italia GT3 with various set ups after just using the SF and the 962 the few times I played since the update, and I got to say, man do the Gr.3 cars feel awful with the new physics, weight distribution and traction is completely off imo. I just hope that, if this is to fit the rumoured rain update, if the weather is static revert the physics back to 1.38 spec in the dry.

I drove the 458 GT3 the other day as well. Felt fine to me.

 

[IncredibleMind]

It's a real shame that Assetto Corsa feels like crap on a controller. Plenty of people are praising the physics but if you can't experience them properly, what's the point? At least in Gran Turismo it feels like you're driving the car - which makes it more involving for the player. In Assetto Corsa there is a distinct disconnect between your actions and the game's response. In Project Cars 2 it is less significant but still - if you can't experience the physics engine as the developers intended, it's hard for me to justify the purchase. You can have the best physics engine ever created but if the controller can't exploit the limits, it's a poorly developed game in my opinion. Gran Turismo allows you to exploit the limits better and be more competitive amongst wheel users.

I can see it as being more difficult to drive with a controller but you still get far more feedback and the controller is still extremely responsive. There’s a several hour learning curve with a controller. I will agree that it’s nothing like GT’s pick up and immediately play with a controller philosophy though. The feel of AC even with a controller is still simply in another league. It’s to the point that an A/B comparison even on a controller makes you sad about the state of GTS.

 

[mef]

At the end of the day, there is no point arguing, everything is ok. Just keep in mind that it will change in a few days/weeks. Maybe some will like it better, some less. And then it will change again. It's ok. We are just playing a game calling itself "the real driving simulator".

It doesn't be to be realistic, it doesn't even need to be about driving. It just needs to make people give their money to PD.

Who care about GT sport physics ? Stop driving, you can take pictures in sooo many different landscapes. You won't complain about physics, lag, penalty system, servers crashing, lack of tracks (...)

It is true that it is a fallacy to pretend any particular game or simulator is 'the' realistic simulator. When people get hung up on what is the most realistic it is time to take a step back and acknowledge that whenever companies hire a 'pro' driver to say x about their game, the person was either paid or is doing them a favour.

And in private professional drivers use whatever sim they have access to for their specific purpose. And track memorization and modeling of a particular car is much more important than simulating 100s of cars perfectly. it's not possible or needed.

Enjoy the game / simulator for what it is.

 

[VBR]

Had a go with the pad just now. Lambo Diablo. Actually felt much better. Feels worse with the wheel, but better with the pad to me, that car at least...

 

[BradleyLove]

Had a go with the pad just now. Lambo Diablo. Actually felt much better. Feels worse with the wheel, but better with the pad to me, that car at least...

Funny you say that. I’ve noticed cars feel much better with the pad, so much so I can use TC0 on every car with the pad. Never been able to do that before.

 

[ScottPuss20]

Had a go with the pad just now. Lambo Diablo. Actually felt much better. Feels worse with the wheel, but better with the pad to me, that car at least...

See, the controller does feel different, doesn't it? Do you understand why I think the physics are better now?

 

[VBR]

See, the controller does feel different, doesn't it? Do you understand why I think the physics are better now?

Conversely, if you tried it with my wheel you might see how others think they're worse.

 

[anh165]

I voted 'slightly worse' - there is huge push-under understeer on some cars, like the F1500, I also found it lost 4-5 MPH top speed on a small track like Brands Hatch.

Being able to drive it without TC on a controller doesn't make up for the loss of pace.

 

[ScottPuss20]

Conversely, if you tried it with my wheel you might see how others think they're worse.

It's a shame that I can't use a wheel... I have a physical disability which is chronic, so I need to use a wheelchair. Can't really operate a steering wheel and pedals properly.

 

[LeGeNd-1]

It's a real shame that Assetto Corsa feels like crap on a controller. Plenty of people are praising the physics but if you can't experience them properly, what's the point? At least in Gran Turismo it feels like you're driving the car - which makes it more involving for the player. In Assetto Corsa there is a distinct disconnect between your actions and the game's response. In Project Cars 2 it is less significant but still - if you can't experience the physics engine as the developers intended, it's hard for me to justify the purchase. You can have the best physics engine ever created but if the controller can't exploit the limits, it's a poorly developed game in my opinion. Gran Turismo allows you to exploit the limits better and be more competitive amongst wheel users.

Well real cars aren't driven with controllers. I think Kunos made a correct decision to optimise the controls for wheels. This is also the reason why I think GT will never reach true sim status, because PD always has to take into account the large console playerbase who still uses a controller. Having said that, I commend devs like PD who takes the time to optimise their wheel and controller settings equally and make it as plug-and-play as possible for the player, no matter what they use (unlike PCARS1 or Codemasters games for example).

I'm sorry that you have a disability that makes you unable to use wheels. Maybe you can work with a local fabricator to modify a wheel to have hand controls for gas/brake/clutch, like what Billy Monger or Alex Zanardi uses? Otherwise, this guy uses a mouse in AC and he seems to do pretty well for himself

 

[ScottPuss20]

I'm sorry that you have a disability that makes you unable to use wheels. Maybe you can work with a local fabricator to modify a wheel to have hand controls for gas/brake/clutch, like what Billy Monger or Alex Zanardi uses? Otherwise, this guy uses a mouse in AC and he seems to do pretty well for himself

You see, my condition affects all my muscles, not just my legs unfortunately. My arms would get extremely tired and that's not something I can put up with. I'm tired enough racing for one hour on a controller. I could do it, just not for long periods.

 

[IncredibleMind]

Well real cars aren't driven with controllers. I think Kunos made a correct decision to optimise the controls for wheels. This is also the reason why I think GT will never reach true sim status, because PD always has to take into account the large console playerbase who still uses a controller. Having said that, I commend devs like PD who takes the time to optimise their wheel and controller settings equally and make it as plug-and-play as possible for the player, no matter what they use (unlike PCARS1 or Codemasters games for example).

I'm sorry that you have a disability that makes you unable to use wheels. Maybe you can work with a local fabricator to modify a wheel to have hand controls for gas/brake/clutch, like what Billy Monger or Alex Zanardi uses? Otherwise, this guy uses a mouse in AC and he seems to do pretty well for himself

My personal experience is that when the director of GT said “driving is for everyone” he unintentionally made this the most successful yet DULL racing experience to date. It is ONE of the main reasons why the majority of people walked away from it and the only people who do back flips over the game are the people invested in online racing. Playing with other people can usually mask many flaws of a title imo because the competition and live AI can’t be faked in single player.

The controller thing is a myth. AC is also better with the DS4. You get FAR more tactile feedback in AC. If you press the DS4 triggers suddenly and at 100% in AC on a 600+hp car, that car will respond the same way as if you pressed the gas pedal at 100% and you were driving a 600+hp car in real life! There’s a high chance you’ll lose control of the car so you have to naturally modulate the throttle and this is actually where the learning curve lies mostly in AC. In GTS with a controller this is NOT happening. In addition on getting more visual feedback, you even get far more tactile feedback on what the wheels are doing in AC with the controller which is why I’m concluding that the tracks in GT are modeled perfectly fine.

PD has gimped GT so severely with a controller that it is literally more difficult and realistic to drive a fast car in a PURE ARCADE RACER like Need for Speed or Burnout Paradise. Here’s the thing, it would be 20x more difficult for Kunos to bring AC to the level of GAME that GT is than the other way around. Imo PD can easily bring the DRIVING EXPERIENCE of GT to the level of AC. It is all down to some subtle yet very important design choices.

 

[IncredibleMind]

You see, my condition affects all my muscles, not just my legs unfortunately. My arms would get extremely tired and that's not something I can put up with. I'm tired enough racing for one hour on a controller. I could do it, just not for long periods.

Sorry to hear this...I hope you get to experience a non-sterilized version of GT with a controller one day. You won’t be disappointed if they do it correctly.

 

[MortosDer]

Some cars feel better. Others feel worse. I never liked oversteer on gr3 cars. Whatever they do to lessen it is fine with me. Realistic or not. Don't care if I'm biased or not. I bought the game to enjoy myself, I'm enjoying it. I owe nobody no nuance.

 

[Dimitri]

Changed my vote from Both Better and Worse to Worse. Some cars are more fun to drive now, but a lot are a lot worse than before.

 

[nfsp2kTW]

Players have long had questions about physics.
That is, what is the basis and basis of player comments?
And what criteria and basis are used to judge the physical authenticity of the game?

Not only that, but also the game developers who claim to have the most authentic physics engine,
The most simulated real driving experience, all holding such questions,
Who the hell is it? On what basis? How do I verify the true extent of game engine simulation?

Stop arguing, because there's no standard for comparison,
Unless you have real driving experience with the same vehicle used in the game,
otherwise it's all just do it out of the evaluation according to personal preferences.