Presidential Election: 2012

[Famine]

Why isn't that guy at McDonald's just as good as the brain surgeon?

Really?

It's because one is an incredibly low-skilled job that requires absolutely no intelligence, application or ability and the other is a massively high-skilled job that requires supreme intelligence, application and ability and resistance to pressure.

Everyone at a school can leave and flip burgers. Almost no-one at a school can leave and go on to do brain surgery. It has nothing to do with greed and everything to do with the scarcity of the qualities required.

If everyone was equal...

But we aren't.

We are a glorious mix of abilities, sizes, beliefs, motivations, experiences and personalities. No two people - even twins - are equal to each other. This is why Communism ultimately fails - you cannot treat people who are not equal as equal in all respects and it fails to account for this.

 

[Danoff]

As has already been said: nobody here is advocating communism. It is completely a straw man argument to set it up in opposition to what you are advocating.

Except I didn't do that. I actually set it up against Germany, which isn't what I'm advocating. Here's the thing though, the economic principles that made Germany more prosperous than the Soviet Union are important principles, and they do apply to what I'm advocating.

I'll state it yet again. I was asked to provide an example of how reduced government manipulation and intervention and reduced violation of property rights could result in prosperity. Germany vs the Soviet Union makes that point perfectly.

So, I await your apology for misinterpreting my post. You saw what you wanted to see instead of actually reading what I wrote. You need to admit that you were wrong and make an effort in the future not to make that mistake again.

In addition, the people fleeing East Germany were crossing into West Germany which had a very successful mixed economy, with a progressive taxation system, universal health care, & extensive social assistance programs. It was NOT a completely laissez faire capitalist economy.

I Agreed. That wasn't my point (which is why you thought I was somehow making a strawman argument).

 

[Dapper]

That's not corrrect.

It has been proven, again, danoff is incapable of understanding numbers.

 

[Danoff]

It has been proven, again, danoff is incapable of understanding numbers.

It's right there in the plot. Look for yourself. I can't make it any easier for you.

 

[Dapper]

It's right there in the plot. Look for yourself. I can't make it any easier for you.

You don't know what you are looking at.

 

[Keef]

You don't know what you are looking at.

How about we start over here. You post the graphs you want to show us, right here, so we don't have to wade through links. Then tell us what each graph has to say.

 

[GTsail]

It has been proven, again, danoff is incapable of understanding numbers.

Come on Dapper - Can't you disagree with Danoff without this^^^?

From my experience, Danoff is easily smart enough to read graphs.

If you think that someone has missed the point of what you think a graph shows, please just repeat your post with a clearer explanation and maybe it will be understood the second time.

Like what Keef just said, I'm a bit lost on what point you are currently trying to make.

I understood your original point: that US wealth seems to be concentrating in the top 1% of US taxpayers and the trend seems to be towards more concentration, but after this, I think some of the posts have gotten side-tracked.

Respectfully,
GTsail

 

[iridegravity]

You haven't brought much of a solution to the table yourself, yes it's easy to say revolution but how do you go about it? If your sucessful with it then what? Go back to the way you were or find a new way? How do you plan to control and stop those people who are selfish and want mass power?

If you're trying to mirror any of the new age 2011 Protest you're not doing them any justice at all. Also bravo at typing what most of us have, the only arguments (since you seem to not have gone through the entire thread) have been Dapper vs Famine (not so much now) and Danoff. Or Dapper and all of us for that matter.

Revolution won't happen until America is like one of the middle eastern states where joblessness is so far out of control that people feel helpless. Not there yet in America, but it's getting closer all the time. One solution is abolishment of the two party system. Until more people believe in the 1 vs the 99%, were stuck with what the 1% and Corporations want. People are either stupid, complascent because we are a super power, or naive. It will be A-buma or whatever tool the republicans offer up. A-buma still has so much support even though he got elected as an anti corporate gunslinger and has proven he's anything but. Now he's Captain Corporate leading history in the amount of Corporate dollars he's collecting. Wake up peeps. We got two options until we say otherwise, and they both play for the same team. The richest Corporation's. But most don't believe the way I do and things will get worse before they get better. I have plans and ideas, but I am not likely to be the President someday, So citing them here as much a waste of time as you reading them. Step 1 though. Abolish the corporation. It only came into being back in the 1800's to enable large public works projects. They used to be a means to one end and they were dismantled after each large public works project. The birth of the permanent corporation was the end of innocence and ethics in politics. Step 2. Make the President serve in the Military, the way George Washington did. On or near the front lines. No one should be allowed to make a decision they don't have to be a part of backing up or wouldn't consider dyeing for themselves.
Step #3 Government service should be a servants job. Someone willing to go to work for an average salary without the potential to ever become rich as a result of service. Maybe we would get some people doing it for the right reasons instead of to get richer.
Getting rid of corps solves our greed problem.
Making the President serve militarily solves our war problem.
Electing servants solves our elitist 1% problem....and over time could eventually balance the budget.
Getting elected now is the equivalent of a seat at the buffet, where they will serve themselves.

 

[Dotini]

Step 1 though. Abolish the corporation. It only came into being back in the 1800's to enable large public works projects. They used to be a means to one end and they were dismantled after each large public works project. The birth of the permanent corporation was the end of innocence and ethics in politics.

Abolish the corporation

That is a truly big idea - so big that you must explain the sort of system which would replace it?

Respectfully,
Steve

 

[iridegravity]

Un incorporate. by that I mean no longer allow the owner of said company indemnity from what his corporation does. Corporate is just another word for unethical. It allows an individual, or board of directors to be released from the moral obligations that should guide a company. They do whatever is best for the company, even if it means acting irresponsibly to the environment or anything else. Corporations are actually encouraged/required to do so to boost profits for all within. There should be one individual at the heart of all company's that has to live with the consequences of their actions. Not a system of protection for your greed that fosters white collar crime. The most serious crime of all as it's victims number in the millions.

 

[Joel]

Lol yup it is greed. Why shouldn't you want to save people's lives. It should not matter how much money you make from doing it. You have a skill that gives you the ability to literally save someone's life and your just going to say screw it I'll work at McDonald's just because of the pay. Complete jerk first of all lol and that's all greed. That's why communism won't work because people for some reason always have to be better than someone else. Why isn't that guy at McDonald's just as good as the brain surgeon? Why doesn't the person with brain cancer get to be saved? All over money, wow. If everyone was equal we wouldn't have these class problems, we wouldn't have greed problems, we wouldn't have any poverty problems. It solves like every problem and all it needs is open minded people who are willing to accept they are no better than anyone else. Like I said sadly it never works out because of greed.

So why are you on GTPlanet posting? Shouldn't you sell your computer to give money to poor families in Africa? After all, you're just being greedy if you have one and they don't, aren't you?

I agree with everything Famine said, the bottom line is we aren't equal, everyone has different skills, interests, and talents. Some people are incredibly gifted and possess a rare skill which is highly valued (brain surgeons). Because of how rare those people are, they have to be paid well or they won't do it, because it's a very difficult and stressful job to do every day. And frankly, I'd be pretty angry if I went to school for 10 years and was saving lives in an operating room every day; doing one of the hardest jobs in the world, only to find out that a moron who dropped out of school to cook fries is making the same money as me (and would also be working shorter, far less stressful hours).

 

[Dapper]

Un incorporate. by that I mean no longer allow the owner of said company indemnity from what his corporation does. Corporate is just another word for unethical. It allows an individual, or board of directors to be released from the moral obligations that should guide a company. They do whatever is best for the company, even if it means acting irresponsibly to the environment or anything else. Corporations are actually encouraged/required to do so to boost profits for all within. There should be one individual at the heart of all company's that has to live with the consequences of their actions. Not a system of protection for your greed that fosters white collar crime. The most serious crime of all as it's victims number in the millions.

This is evidenced by studies finding executives, or similarly ranked individuals with a lot of power, to be suffering from psychological disorders such as histrionic and narcissistic personality disorders. Wiki cites a study that says "They found that one out of eleven personality disorders (histrionic personality disorder) were actually more pronounced in executives than in the disturbed criminals."

 

[Dotini]

This is evidenced by studies finding executives, or similarly ranked individuals with a lot of power, to be suffering from psychological disorders such as histrionic and narcissistic personality disorders. Wiki cites a study that says "They found that one out of eleven personality disorders (histrionic personality disorder) were actually more pronounced in executives than in the disturbed criminals."

This post would be a lot more credible if you had included a link to a credible source.

Respectfully,
Steve

 

[Dapper]

This post would be a lot more credible if you had included a link to a credible source.

Respectfully,
Steve

All I got is an abstract.
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10683160310001634304

edit- Here is an article on the study at least.
http://www.thepowerindex.com.au/guidebook/are-business-leaders-psychopaths/20111107678

 

[iridegravity]

This is evidenced by studies finding executives, or similarly ranked individuals with a lot of power, to be suffering from psychological disorders such as histrionic and narcissistic personality disorders. Wiki cites a study that says "They found that one out of eleven personality disorders (histrionic personality disorder) were actually more pronounced in executives than in the disturbed criminals."[/QUOTE

I believe the Movie, "The Corporation", does a good job of identifying Corporate/CEO behavior as sociopathic. We are talking about homocidal maniacs, not just narcissists. Were talking about entities that are laying claim to Rain water that falls from the sky to control water supplies in oppressed countries. Bio-Techs that are obtaining patents for the blueprints of life, for every living thing on the planet, even though initially the courts found it unethical to do so. Big Corp's are like a Rabid Dog that needs to be destroyed.

 

[Dapper]

I believe the Movie, "The Corporation", does a good job of identifying Corporate/CEO behavior as sociopathic. We are talking about homocidal maniacs, not just narcissists. Were talking about entities that are laying claim to Rain water that falls from the sky to control water supplies in oppressed countries. Bio-Techs that are obtaining patents for the blueprints of life, for every living thing on the planet, even though initially the courts found it unethical to do so. Big Corp's are like a Rabid Dog that needs to be destroyed.

Cool, I hadn't heard of this but the whole movie is on youtube... so I'll watch it soon! Thanks. 👍

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

iridegravity, I understand that and if you go back and read post from me and others you'll see that you've only said what has been said here. I agree with alot of what you say but when you call for revolution you must explain it and what context it should be in. Many would say that the Protests going on against big banks, corps., wall street, and anti-two party gov't are revolutions in themselves all over America. Also one thing I must say is that Eastern states aren't the only ones suffering from major joblessness, the Area of the southwestern united states that I live in suffers from one of the highest if not highest jobless record since the economic collapse and still going. 26% Unemployment rate and the state on Average is at 10-11% unemployment.

On another note I thought I'd show you people this Article and how much it made me laugh that the only true canidates of the GOP are supposed jokes to this man here.

 

[Danoff]

I believe the Movie, "The Corporation", does a good job of identifying Corporate/CEO behavior as sociopathic. We are talking about homocidal maniacs, not just narcissists. Were talking about entities that are laying claim to Rain water that falls from the sky to control water supplies in oppressed countries. Bio-Techs that are obtaining patents for the blueprints of life, for every living thing on the planet, even though initially the courts found it unethical to do so. Big Corp's are like a Rabid Dog that needs to be destroyed.

This is kinda like saying that because some people are homicidal or evil that all humanity needs to be destroyed. Some people will do immoral things if given the chance, that doesn't mean that all people will. The same is true of CEOs (who are, in the end, people).

 

[FoolKiller]

I find reading what people think of executives vs what I have learned from actually interacting with them is both drastically different and yet similar.

My mother has been an assistant to the CIO and CEO of GE appliances and I have had to interact with the executives on many social occasions. In my own career I have had to interact with the top executives of the company I worked for. I can sum up successful personalities: confident to a fault. And I do mean to a fault. These people do not get to the positions they have reached by second-guessing every decision they have made. They also didn't make it by being wrong on many occasions. Call it sociopathic or narcissistic to be that self-confident if you want, but the simple fact of the matter is that personality trait is what separates the successful from the unsuccessful. A good executive will recognize this and they seek staff or an assistant who will call them out when they do make mistakes. I recently had an interview for a position that would assist a branch manager in state government. He blatantly said that he has been told that he can often be hard headed and he wants someone who feels secure enough to call him out on his mistakes, second-guess him, and keep his ego in check.

When CEOs, board members, and other executives make decisions without thinking of the long-term consequences or ethical implications it is because they have had such a successful career without mistakes up to that point that they have reached a point where they become overconfident. That is not to say that some don't also become greedy. But they don't get that opportunity without having been good enough to reach that point.

 

[shmogt]

Man it's amazing this guy has been saying exactly the same thing for 30years and still isn't president.

 

[iridegravity]

This is kinda like saying that because some people are homicidal or evil that all humanity needs to be destroyed. Some people will do immoral things if given the chance, that doesn't mean that all people will. The same is true of CEOs (who are, in the end, people).

Nothing like saying that. Genocide of Humanity over a few bad apples? Not quite that extreme. "Many" people would do Immoral things if given the chance obviously, that's why I want to remove that chance from the equation. The Corporation exist's as an elevated entity, above persons, politicians and the law. They foster an environment of immorality and entitlement where, of course, the top will be packed with degenerates. CEO/Executive=WCC
White Collar Criminal

 

[Danoff]

Nothing like saying that. Genocide of Humanity over a few bad apples? Not quite that extreme.

Really?

Big Corp's are like a Rabid Dog that needs to be destroyed.

Isn't that advocating destroying all of them over a few bad apples?

The Corporation exist's as an elevated entity, above persons, politicians and the law.

I don't know where this notion comes from. Corporations are held accountable to the law routinely. The organization I work for, for example, has many policies that are the direct result of law. Overtime rules, hiring and firing practices, etc. etc. All legal accountability.

They foster an environment of immorality and entitlement where, of course, the top will be packed with degenerates. CEO/Executive=WCC
White Collar Criminal

Again, a few bad apples?

 

[iridegravity]

No. You are wrong. A corporation has rights to own land and such, just like a person, but is not subject to the law like a person is. Do your research.
That is the whole point of incorporating instead of going it on your own. It entitles you to certain protections. An owner can claim indemnity from what his corporation does. I can't as an individual, seperate myself from my actions. if I break the law. I am punished. If a CEO does it, he gets a severence package and a golden parachute. I am not trying to destroy the corporation as much as I am saying hold the individuals in charge of them, especially ownership, boards of director's etc accountable to the same laws an individual would have to.
Working for a corporation and understanding their "Employment" policies does not make you on expert on "corporate" law. Those policies are they're because people still have some rights. Let corps keep going unchecked and soon enough, you will be working a 60 hour week for the same pay with no benefits. You are looking at it from low men on the Totem Pole status and not seeing the bigger picture your bosses and the rest of us are.
Do you think the current system of Corporate control over policy and elections is a good thing? Because you would have to be blind or ignorant to think Corporation's/wealthy individuals don't run America and Wall St. It's just one big Corporate take over game. What happens when somebody wins this game they are all playing. Pretty sure the rest of us lose.

 

[FoolKiller]

No. You are wrong. A corporation has rights to own land and such, just like a person, but is not subject to the law like a person is. Do your research.

OK.

That is the whole point of incorporating instead of going it on your own. It entitles you to certain protections. An owner can claim indemnity from what his corporation does. I can't as an individual, seperate myself from my actions. if I break the law. I am punished. If a CEO does it, he gets a severence package and a golden parachute.

Are
You
Sure?

I've done my research and I see corporate executives with prison sentences. Now, you made the claim. You back it up. Saying "I say X, Y, Z. Look it up," is not proving yourself. Saying, "I say X, Y, Z and you can see why in these links," is.

EDIT: And there needs to be a trend proven, not just one or two cases where something happened and an executive responsible walked away.

Do you think the current system of Corporate control over policy and elections is a good thing? Because you would have to be blind or ignorant to think Corporation's/wealthy individuals don't run America and Wall St.

I am sure we would all agree that corporatism is bad, but to want to stop all corporations is the most difficult, and least effective solution. Not to mention the most disastrous course of action as it requires completely restructuring the entire economy and hoping there is something left to save by the time you are finished.

The path to end corporatism needs to be directed at the people who act like an illusionist, demonizing corporations while appointing their CEOs to chair committees. They tell you to look over there, complain about percentages, fair and unfair, and distrust anyone with money. And while you look away they pocket the cash and hand them power.

Target the government officials. Force them to obey their Constitutional duties, force all their dealings to be a matter of public record, and hold our elected and non-elected government officials responsible for their actions. It is easier and less destructive to make the government have to stop their corporatist actions. It won't be easy, but you sure have less entities to monitor and the oversight only has to look at the heads of one organization.


Basically, if you want to attack corporatism in America you need to make sure people like President Obama explains how he wants to create jobs but will give incentives, contracts and committee appointments to one of the largest outsourcers in this country. You also need to make sure that people like Newt Gingrich don't get into office. (And that is how I bring it back on topic)

 

[Dapper]

Are
You
Sure?

Martyrs.

I am sure we would all agree that corporatism is bad...

Target the government officials.

Agreed and agreed. But if I run for office or you run for office we won't win. And I would vote for anyone on before a slimy career politician.
This is where Buffet's Congress stuff comes into play.

Congressional Reform Act of 2011
1) No Tenure / No Pension.
A Congressman collects a salary while in office and receives no pay when out
of office.
2) Congress (past, present & future) participates in Social Security.
All funds in the Congressional retirement fund move to the Social Security
system immediately. All future funds flow into the Social Security system,
and Congress participates with the American people.
It may not be used for any other purpose.
3) Congressmen can purchase their own retirement plan, just as all Americans
do.
4) Congress will no longer vote itself a pay raise. Congressional pay will
rise by the lower of CPI or 3%.
5) Congress loses its current health care system and participates in the
same health care system as the American people.
6) Congress must equally abide by all laws they impose on the American
people.
7) All contracts with past and present Congressmen are void effective
1/1/12.

 

[FoolKiller]

Agreed and agreed. But if I run for office or you run for office we won't win.

If you have a defeatist attitude you will never win.

 

[Dapper]

If you have a defeatist attitude you will never win.

Tru dat, and youtube is powerful enough to erase campaign funds I think.

 

[iridegravity]

I agree. The Politicians and their connection to Wall ST Corps should be the Target. But, that will never happen, regardless of what you guys are attempting here. Eventually the Corps will merge into Even more consolidated Mega-Multi National Corps that will rule us all. Someone willing to take those giants on is the only solution. They have already corrupted/own our current system. No Repub or Dem is going to fix it. probably not Ron Paul either. Revolution will happen when when the average American can't get work, period. Like in the middle east. We are just complascent here because our quality of living is higher than most. It will catch up with us. You can see over generations How much less we have than we did in the 50's.

As far as Prison time for execs. Everyone knows they don't do the same kind of time as the average criminal who robs someone. Even if they do do any time at all. They still leave jail wealthy and happy men. I can only think of Madoff or whoever and someone in a banking scandal or something. Enron? I think the examples of execs getting off virtually scott free while bilking millions of people far outweigh the couple examples you may or may not be able to recall.

 

[iridegravity]

That congressional act above sounds great, but don't see how it ever makes it to the floor.

 

[Danoff]

No. You are wrong. A corporation has rights to own land and such, just like a person, but is not subject to the law like a person is.

...not even you agree with that, as you demonstrate below.

Do your research.
That is the whole point of incorporating instead of going it on your own. It entitles you to certain protections. An owner can claim indemnity from what his corporation does. I can't as an individual, seperate myself from my actions. if I break the law. I am punished. If a CEO does it, he gets a severence package and a golden parachute.

The CEO is still responsible for his actions, even if he's not responsible for the actions of the company as a whole. But a corporation, much like an individual, is actually responsible for its actions - just not necessarily the individual actors within it. If BMW gives you a car that breaks under warranty, the CEO is not responsible for providing you with a repair, but BMW most certainly is. That's how it works, and that's how it should work. The corporation is subject to law just like a person is.

I am not trying to destroy the corporation as much as I am saying hold the individuals in charge of them, especially ownership, boards of director's etc accountable to the same laws an individual would have to.

Done. They are.

Working for a corporation and understanding their "Employment" policies does not make you on expert on "corporate" law.

Show me where I claimed to be an expert on corporate law. I remember giving you an example of a corporation being held accountable to the law - a direct counter example to your claim that corporations are above the law. Don't lose sight of the conversation.

Those policies are they're because people still have some rights.

Those policies don't full under the jurisdiction of human rights.

Let corps keep going unchecked and soon enough, you will be working a 60 hour week for the same pay with no benefits.

Right, and that's why I make minimum wage... no wait. They voluntarily pay me extra and give me extra benefits for some reason... (hint: competition)

Do you think the current system of Corporate control over policy and elections is a good thing? Because you would have to be blind or ignorant to think Corporation's/wealthy individuals don't run America and Wall St.

They don't, and that does not make me either blind or ignorant. America is a representative republic run by the people. We are, however, slowly turning power over to politicians (not corporations), who in some cases are willing to sell that power to the highest bidder.

It's just one big Corporate take over game. What happens when somebody wins this game they are all playing. Pretty sure the rest of us lose.

Give me an example.