Prism

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I have more faith in Germany than any other country in the EU at this moment. Here in The Netherlands they are working on Project Symbolon. It's planned to go live in January 2014. It's like Prism, or maybe a copy. The goals are the same.

Only thing is, everything is already being tracked here. Espionage is very high here and the Pirate Party isn't taken seriously, unlike in Germany..


I'm also afraid there is no way to stop all this, because:

I life in germany and I have 0 faith.

Recently they showed a poll about prism in tv and most people just don't care about govs spying them.

Germans just don't care, nothing will change in this country. Our current administration has ****ed up so many times and has been proven to run by corrupt idiots (Guttenberg, Wulff), but only the opposition is loosing votes.

Angela Merkel will just wait and do nothing, as usual, in a few weeks of time even those, who care about prism, will forget it and vote for her party again. Bild Zeitung and RTL decide who gets voted and who not.
 
The white house is in charge of all this. They won't do anything. They could tell everyone that it will stop and the data will be deleted than do nothing. It was a secret program that people found out by very special circumstances. I highly doubt anything will stop them.

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. All that secret data, which is actually accessible in part or whole to large numbers of politicians, military figures, law officers and technicians, will manifest itself in extortion, blackmail, insider trading and a general explosion of corruption and lawless, antisocial behavior.

With his secret access to the inside lives of Americans, J Edgar Hoover became the most powerful and feared man in the nation, and a proficient and selective blackmailer. Now imagine 100,000 miniature J Edgar Hoovers on the loose! Hoover himself would have been delighted at the extra power of snooping available with today's technology, but appalled that he couldn't hoard it all to himself.

Nothing but a Carrington Event, ending technology based on widespread availability of electricity and setting civilization back to the Steam Age for a few years, will stop the surveillance state from proceeding as it wishes. There is nothing in human nature that is going to reverse the course of technology. Laws and constitutions mean nothing by comparison.
 
Carlos
I'm also afraid there is no way to stop all this, because:

Just to be clear, that was satirical. I'm definitely not a believer in that, especially with how quickly governments arbitrarily decide that something is suddenly illegal.
 
Just to be clear, that was satirical. I'm definitely not a believer in that, especially with how quickly governments arbitrarily decide that something is suddenly illegal.

I know! :D You said it perfecty, that's how people think.

So erm, no faith in Germany then I guess. I was really hoping on Merkel. Damn it. I learned from a docu the Pirate Party in Germany is/was very active, guess not?

And what is this I hear about XKeyscore?
http://www.theguardian.com/world/interactive/2013/jul/31/nsa-xkeyscore-program-full-presentation
 
Everyone who thought for one second, that Germany would do anything against it, was just naive.

Germany is insanly lazy when it comes to things like "revolution" and things. How much does our past has to do with this? Maybe a lot, maybe not so much. But much more does our education after the war has to do with this. Germany post war is EXTREMLY influenced by the US. Since then Germany is slowly dying out, all german virtues are almost completly lost, our population gets older by every second.

So, yes when a poll says "xx% don't care" it's really because the Germans genieunly don't care, they sorta accept it.

I learned from a docu the Pirate Party in Germany is/was very active, guess not?

The party is way too small to really have an impact, they can maybe drag their attention onto them when they enter a state parliament, but that's usually because people are fed up by our gouvernment, so this is their form of protest. In the end, the Piratenpartei has to become part of the bunch to really change something. Bündnis 90/Die Grünen started out just like that, but now their just as bad as the rest.

Just to give my two cents to the whole topic, giving a very "present german" opinion: It's not like I don't care, but I'm not going all "OMG!!!!!" and act all sensationalist just because Ed Snowden reveals something totally unexpected. Whoever thought, that we're not getting monitored by our gouvernment, especially in the day and age where the Internet and Smartphones and all that stuff becomes more and more a part of our everyday lifes, is just, again for the lack of a better word, stupid. The USA always had the urge to control everything and everyone to have total control, but so do other countries, not going to point the finger just on the US. We become more and more glassy with every second we're on the internet. To stop this you'd have to take down every satilite, possibly even the ISS, shut off the Internet, throw all of our TV's, Smartphones and PC/Macs into the trash.

But things like this makes me wish that the world would've ended in 2012, to put humanity out of it's misery.
 
Whoever thought, that we're not getting monitored by our gouvernment, especially in the day and age where the Internet and Smartphones and all that stuff becomes more and more a part of our everyday lifes, is just, again for the lack of a better word, stupid. The USA always had the urge to control everything and everyone to have total control, but so do other countries, not going to point the finger just on the US. We become more and more glassy with every second we're on the internet. To stop this you'd have to take down every satilite, possibly even the ISS, shut off the Internet, throw all of our TV's, Smartphones and PC/Macs into the trash.

But things like this makes me wish that the world would've ended in 2012, to put humanity out of it's misery.

Good insight and passion in this post. 👍

At some point it would appear that humanity becomes a controlled victim of its own technology, rather than a controlling beneficiary. The Luddites and the Amish drew this line long ago, but the former are gone and the latter live uneasy lives. For the rest of us, it's too late to put the genie back in the bottle. So all we have left is to adapt to an increasingly dehumanized existence. It's tempting to escape deep into alcohol, drugs and exotic entertainments, but that way leads only to further madness and destruction. If I had all the answers to the human dilemma, I would tell you.
 
Everyone who thought for one second, that Germany would do anything against it, was just naive.

Germany is insanly lazy when it comes to things like "revolution" and things. How much does our past has to do with this? Maybe a lot, maybe not so much. But much more does our education after the war has to do with this. Germany post war is EXTREMLY influenced by the US. Since then Germany is slowly dying out, all german virtues are almost completly lost, our population gets older by every second.

So, yes when a poll says "xx% don't care" it's really because the Germans genieunly don't care, they sorta accept it.



The party is way too small to really have an impact, they can maybe drag their attention onto them when they enter a state parliament, but that's usually because people are fed up by our gouvernment, so this is their form of protest. In the end, the Piratenpartei has to become part of the bunch to really change something. Bündnis 90/Die Grünen started out just like that, but now their just as bad as the rest.

Just to give my two cents to the whole topic, giving a very "present german" opinion: It's not like I don't care, but I'm not going all "OMG!!!!!" and act all sensationalist just because Ed Snowden reveals something totally unexpected. Whoever thought, that we're not getting monitored by our gouvernment, especially in the day and age where the Internet and Smartphones and all that stuff becomes more and more a part of our everyday lifes, is just, again for the lack of a better word, stupid. The USA always had the urge to control everything and everyone to have total control, but so do other countries, not going to point the finger just on the US. We become more and more glassy with every second we're on the internet. To stop this you'd have to take down every satilite, possibly even the ISS, shut off the Internet, throw all of our TV's, Smartphones and PC/Macs into the trash.

But things like this makes me wish that the world would've ended in 2012, to put humanity out of it's misery.

As much as I agree with you people are stupid at times. People tend to be myopic and unaware of simple things and rather have everything come to them which is highly dangerous, so when things break open that they couldn't imagine they make a big uproar "how could this be". It's a reason why I love history, cause it could easily teach you what the future may bring, too bad not to many people I've met respect history or care about it.
 
As much as I agree with you people are stupid at times. People tend to be myopic and unaware of simple things and rather have everything come to them which is highly dangerous, so when things break open that they couldn't imagine they make a big uproar "how could this be". It's a reason why I love history, cause it could easily teach you what the future may bring, too bad not to many people I've met respect history or care about it.

I agree with you, but I also believe that history can only teach to a certain extent. History doesn't repeat, it only repeats in one way or another, but never exactly like something that has already happen. At least that's my opinion on it.

And I even know a quote, I even believe it's from CoD, but I think it fits this whole situation quite well:

"History is written by the victor. If he lives and we die, his truth becomes written and ours is lost."

Another part of the reason would be the different generations and also the different time. Problems that occured in the 19th or 20th Century (Diseases, Conflicts, etc.) would happen in the 21st Century, and vice versa.
 
I agree with you, but I also believe that history can only teach to a certain extent. History doesn't repeat, it only repeats in one way or another, but never exactly like something that has already happen. At least that's my opinion on it.

And I even know a quote, I even believe it's from CoD, but I think it fits this whole situation quite well:

I'd agree it isn't absolute in exactness or repitition, but that wasn't what I was getting at. It gives insight into the base of human nature, the only thing that changes is the tools and rules with time, but the idea is still the same.

Another part of the reason would be the different generations and also the different time. Problems that occured in the 19th or 20th Century (Diseases, Conflicts, etc.) would happen in the 21st Century, and vice versa.

True, and the handling of them could be very similar as well. Also I'd easily say that things with generations aren't getting better. People seem to be quite lazy with the knowledge that comes out and some of the newer generations (like mine) entering adult hood or young adults seem to be the reactionary people when things happen as of late. However, I still see many of them jumping in on fly by wire news that doesn't really educate but sensationalize and thus allows history to do this type of thing over and over again.

Main point is I agree with the many of you, if people are surprised by all this I'd love to see the rock they take shelter under in their day to day lives.
 
Snowden granted one year asylum in Russia. Obama won't be too happy about that.

http://news.yahoo.com/snowden-leaves-airport-russia-grants-asylum-133202251.html

Love this quote:

[Names withheld], put on your thinking caps please. What Snowden exposed is just like Russia or worse. The USA spies on their citizens more than Russia does. As of right now, we have LESS privacy than the citizens of Russia.

Why do you two think that clearance means you keep constitutional violations secret?

Snowden took an oath to protect the CONSTITUTION from ALL enemies, foreign and DOMESTIC and it looks like Snowden took that oath seriously, unlike Obama and most of Congress. A little free and critical thinking goes a long way boys.

Snowden's oath was PARAMOUNT as it is supposed to be. A person thatdoesn't understand that oath and mean it, should never take it.
 

No it doesn't beg the question, it's well know that Google track and provide (some say sell) information to respective gov't and allow the Government to tap into their servers to monitor searches. Sorry Sanji I was upset at the obviousness of what that part you quoted from the article said, not at you.

I just hope that never happens to me or any others here, I occasionally have several pages open at once with everything from my field of study to various hobbies like Guitars, Guns, Cars, Art Supplies and various other things. I'd hate to have some dual or triple combo that get me a unwanted visit.
 
pressure cooker + backpack are words used too often here. You americans may be visited, while I've probably just made myself unable to visit you guys :D
 
To think that, when it game out, Metal Gear Solid 2's GW controlling all sorts of inforamtion was science fiction... We're so close to that, it's scary.

As far as Germany goes, all hope is lost, I'd say, Out ministers are downplaying the whole thing, calling it unimportant and are of the opinion that the benefits outweigh the fact that they're sacrificing every citizen's freedom. Figures...
 

As far as Germany goes, all hope is lost, I'd say, Out ministers are downplaying the whole thing, calling it unimportant and are of the opinion that the benefits outweigh the fact that they're sacrificing every citizen's freedom. Figures...

"A peaceful land, a quiet people"
- Roose Bolton, Game of Thrones
 
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"A peaceful land, a quiet people"
- Ramsay Bolton, Game of Thrones

“Here, then. Power resides where men believe it resides. No more and no less.”
-Varys, Game of Thrones as well.

I think that that's much of the problem. Too many people just accept something because the government does it. Whether it' is right, whether it is justifiable, whether it is lawful, it doesn't matter. And with every day that passes by, that illusion of power solidifies more and more. Us Germans have become very obedient, to be quite honest. Mostly because we've started to accept the notion that nothing will ever change.

Even if we were to elect, say, the Pirate Party, which absolutely opposes stuff like prism now - in about two or three years, they'd be the exact same suit-and-tie straw men, feeding us the same lies, the same propaganda we're being fed right now. I guess our 'version' of democracy has crashed and burned. The media dictates who's getting elected, and whomever actually is forming the government is doing what he's told by lobbyists, the European Union and, to an extend, America, as it would seem. But even if the people were to rule themselves, I feel that, by now, the population, by and large, should be considered unable to do so. Quite clearly, most people can't think of anything besides the utmost short-term benefit. They can't think for themselves, so how would they rule themselves?

I've never been much of a conspiracy theorist. But I do believe that out political system is just one big show, a few puppets on strings dancing to keep the illusion of freedom up. Prism and xKeyscore are but blossoms that are sprouting from a thoroughly rotten tree. Everyone's focusing on them now, but we should be worried about who made them, in the first place. But all of this will eventually blow over. People will resume their lives, they will care mostly about some stupid gossip, like, who's having a baby and what club Mario Lewandowski will be playing for. And they'll slowly forget about Prism, about xKeyscore, about their freedom.
 
“Here, then. Power resides where men believe it resides. No more and no less.”
-Varys, Game of Thrones as well.



Your astute quotation of Varys tells me you're more concerned with the realm itself than in the persons or even transitory outer forms of its government. So there is hope.
 
“Here, then. Power resides where men believe it resides. No more and no less.”
-Varys, Game of Thrones as well.

I think that that's much of the problem. Too many people just accept something because the government does it. Whether it' is right, whether it is justifiable, whether it is lawful, it doesn't matter. And with every day that passes by, that illusion of power solidifies more and more. Us Germans have become very obedient, to be quite honest. Mostly because we've started to accept the notion that nothing will ever change.

Even if we were to elect, say, the Pirate Party, which absolutely opposes stuff like prism now - in about two or three years, they'd be the exact same suit-and-tie straw men, feeding us the same lies, the same propaganda we're being fed right now. I guess our 'version' of democracy has crashed and burned. The media dictates who's getting elected, and whomever actually is forming the government is doing what he's told by lobbyists, the European Union and, to an extend, America, as it would seem. But even if the people were to rule themselves, I feel that, by now, the population, by and large, should be considered unable to do so. Quite clearly, most people can't think of anything besides the utmost short-term benefit. They can't think for themselves, so how would they rule themselves?

I've never been much of a conspiracy theorist. But I do believe that out political system is just one big show, a few puppets on strings dancing to keep the illusion of freedom up. Prism and xKeyscore are but blossoms that are sprouting from a thoroughly rotten tree. Everyone's focusing on them now, but we should be worried about who made them, in the first place. But all of this will eventually blow over. People will resume their lives, they will care mostly about some stupid gossip, like, who's having a baby and what club Mario Lewandowski will be playing for. And they'll slowly forget about Prism, about xKeyscore, about their freedom.

Pretty much what I said on the last page. Sad, but true.
We lost our faith, we accept our doom. Whatever you wanna call it, but it's not nice to see that.
 
There is no faith allowed at gtp :lol:

It does seam that story about kettle pots and backpacks is after the fact and defo reminds me of the tsa.
 
Your astute quotation of Varys tells me you're more concerned with the realm itself than in the persons or even transitory outer forms of its government. So there is hope.
There might be hope, yes. A faint one, though. I do think that others, including the base of our Pirate Party, feel similar. As long as the realm and its people are controlled by the media, to the extend they are now, they'll never rise to power fast enough. They will long be corrupted before they've achieved anything.
Or duffel bag with shampoo bottles in it of 12oz +
More than 12oz of shampoo? You... You monster!
 
And some more information (or obfuscation?) on the case from here:

"Suffolk County Criminal Intelligence Detectives received a tip from a Bay Shore based computer company regarding suspicious computer searches conducted by a recently released employee. The former employee’s computer searches took place on this employee’s workplace computer. On that computer, the employee searched the terms 'pressure cooker bombs' and 'backpacks.'”

"After interviewing the company representatives, Suffolk County Police Detectives visited the subject’s home to ask about the suspicious internet searches. The incident was investigated by Suffolk County Police Department’s Criminal Intelligence Detectives and was determined to be non-criminal in nature."

"Any further inquiries regarding this matter should be directed to the Suffolk County Police Department."

The official version of the story seems to be changing by the hour.

One thing I'd like to know: how much time lapsed between the Google search(es) and the visit from the police? Are we talking hours or days, or are we talking months? The original story implies a short time, the "official" police version implies months.

And still, the overriding question remains: Why are the police conducting interrogations and searches based only on a Google search? Heck, I could have seen myself googling the phrase "pressure cooker bomb" in the days after the Boston Marathon bomb, out of simple curiosity.

Yeah, we're not heading for a police state, we're already there.
 
Apparently the US are "disappointed" by Russia's decision to grant political asylum for one year to Edward Snowden...

When they say "disappointed", I reckon this is probably close to what they mean...

 
I read in a local news site that some Republican was suggesting that USA boycott next year's Winter Olympics because of Snowden... :rolleyes:
 
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