Project CARS 2 General Discussion Thread - Out Now on PS4/XB1/PC

[RomKnight]

I have a fanatec v2 and I think I remember reading those quotes.

While they may be true at some point in time, and in some car track combos as not everything is yet finished - and I surely didn't try every car yet - picking one specific example out of context is trolling.

If one has access to a pC2 build can surely test other combos. and if it still doesn't work it's a local install issue of sorts (drivers/fw on the csw) and/or probably a known issue.

But lets assume that if I go now test that car it's still like that. It still not representative of the game especially because the car can just be waiting another pass on the tyres and physics. No, it's not do one car move to the other type of development.

I take those comments at ZERO face value because, well, I do know better and I'm the same HW.

That being said, to each his own.

 

[HardRock]

But none of them are really comparing nuances of FFB and physics between commercial sim titles.

Nor should they ever do that. The target in terms of physics is the real world, which they have plenty of experience with, and in terms of feel, well, as I detailed above the goal there can be pretty subjective anyway you look at it.

Austin Ognoski? PretendRaceCars writer who's raced seemingly a billion sims. I know he's one example and I don't know what he does specifically. But his experience in many sims will help judge where he feels is closest to PC and the best in the area. In one of his articles, he stated how the closest car in a game to his oval race car was actually the TransAm if I remember correctly as opposed to the other renditions of that category in other games.

Austin sure knows a lot about sims and from what I've read so far his observations are usually quite accurate. However, when he starts speculating about the background of physics problems in sims is when I usually stop reading his articles. His technical knowledge on this topic is clearly lacking (I hope joining WMD will be educational for him, it certainly was for me) and he usually assumes incompetency first in case of perceived issues. This also contributed to the not-so-nice comment section that evolved around PRC.

And let's not even get into the discussion about how many people confuse FFB with Physics and vice versa. How the FFB feels, and how the car behaves physics wise are 2 VERY different things, yet most sim racers are incapable of separating the 2 objectively.

I agree. People should drive more with all FFB disabled, it can be an eye opening experience.

 

[RomKnight]

People should have ffb has it comes from the steering rack to the wheel rim where the hands are in a real car.

cars with power steering are nearly lifeless and disconnected as running without FFB. It would feel VERY weird but the same if one could disable G's IRL.

But some would say RL is arcade LOL

/edit

Actually try to drive a Fiat in "city Mode" (the light power steering for parking)

Or drive your own car with the power steering set to sport for a week and change for the "city/comfort".

Then come here post about it, I'm curious

 

[HardRock]

People should have ffb has it comes from the steering rack to the wheel rim where the hands are in a real car.

cars with power steering are nearly lifeless and disconnected as running without FFB. It would feel VERY weird but the same if one could disable G's IRL.

For sure, but this is the only way to completely disassociate the FFB from the physics, when comparing two titles. Even in terms of pure steering rack forces, the balance between can be different in two sims, which is often perceived as physics being different.

 

[DeadHero]

Yet the hype train on these forums is full steam ahead.

Good thing that nobody will ever force me on that train, not even with 100 preorder bonuses. I'll gladly wait for the game to come out and see how it compares to Forza and AC with a pad (i already know some folks who are gonna jump on it at day one and i'm looking forward to their opinions).
AC, even if it's meant to be played with a wheel, does a pretty good job at allowing pad users to really feel the car and track and if PCARS2 will be on par, or close enough, then I'll happily give it a try myself.

 

[ozwheels]

The most credible voice is a real driver with simracing experience

I assume whoever wrote this missed this video.

Why does everyone compare sims to sims? Sims are simulating real life, not each other. I really can't understand those discussions. Just like when one sim feels different to another it automatically makes it a less realistic experience because it's different. Any sim is complicated enough now that to compare them to real life you need to be able to explain the differences with actual detail regarding tires and physics and not it 'feels' bad or the ffb is bad.

 

[RomKnight]

For sure, but this is the only way to completely disassociate the FFB from the physics, when comparing two titles. Even in terms of pure steering rack forces, the balance between can be different in two sims, which is often perceived as physics being different.

Problem is, just changing the caster can make stronger/lighter FFB.

And trust me when I say that in AC I couldn't even replicate the gear ratios as homologated for gt3 cars according to tech specs in 2016 at least. Been a while though, might've changed.

So, having the exact same setup between sims to compare is difficult let alone compare default setups.

Even then though, I still feel that AC (unlike rf2 and pc1 even) was designed around the ffb. I want a ****** car to feel ******. I don't want to feel the wheels locking in a DTM car when the drivers IRL say they can't either... But that's me.

 

[Animera]

You can search on YouTube and find videos of bugs and/or strange behaviour for every racing game.
All of them have their quirks but this doesn't mean I shouldn't play them.

At the end of the day they're all just racing games.
Play them all or find the one that gives you the most enjoyment and play it more than the others.

I have my favourite and I know it has its quirks, but I keep playing it because it gives me the most enjoyment.

 

[F1Racer68]

You can search on YouTube and find videos of bugs and/or strange behaviour for every racing game.
All of them have their quirks but this doesn't mean I shouldn't play them.

At the end of the day they're all just racing games.
Play them all or find the one that gives you the most enjoyment and play it more than the others.

I have my favourite and I know it has its quirks, but I keep playing it because it gives me the most enjoyment.

^^ So much wisdom in this post.

 

[imported_traind]

Nor should they ever do that. The target in terms of physics is the real world, which they have plenty of experience with, and in terms of feel, well, as I detailed above the goal there can be pretty subjective anyway you look at it.

Austin sure knows a lot about sims and from what I've read so far his observations are usually quite accurate. However, when he starts speculating about the background of physics problems in sims is when I usually stop reading his articles. His technical knowledge on this topic is clearly lacking (I hope joining WMD will be educational for him, it certainly was for me) and he usually assumes incompetency first in case of perceived issues. This also contributed to the not-so-nice comment section that evolved around PRC.

I don't expect pros to thoroughly compare sims... particularly if they are being paid to consult for one. But saying they never should makes no sense.

If Max Verstappen (current Red Bull F1 ace for those who don't follow F1) was available and we could ask him "how does this virtual F1 car compare to your real one" ... we would all like to hear the answer. I am pretty sure most simracers would also be very interested to hear his answer to "of these three sims with a modern F1 car, which is the most accurate to you? What qualities stand out in each sim both good and bad? Which do you prefer? Why?"

Of course his preference doesn't make it mine or yours. But he does have accuracy and feel data we don't. And he has driven multiple titles... iracing, RF and pcars 1 are on that list I believe so his perspective would be interesting.

As I said above, it is terrific SMS have gotten so much feedback from pros. But Collins gave tons of it for pcars 1 and it didn't make that a great sim title, imo. So you can't take a pro driver's comments about pcars being like real life and extrapolate that it is a better sim than the competition or even a good sim, period. Hopefully the core engine in pcars 2 is good enough to take all this pro input and do something great with it.

As a side note: For those that know, much of the community's view of Austin's impartiality with regard to sim racing is shot now that Ian sponsored his racing career. He never had too much with me due to the nature of his website even if he is knowledgeable. But it was a smart business move by Ian. If nothing else it shut down pcars most ardent critic/detractor.

 

[ozwheels]

I don't expect pros to thoroughly compare sims... particularly if they are being paid to consult for one. But saying they never should makes no sense.

If Max Verstappen (current Red Bull F1 ace for those who don't follow F1) was available and we could ask him "how does this virtual F1 car compare to your real one" ... we would all like to hear the answer. I am pretty sure most simracers would also be very interested to hear his answer to "of these three sims with a modern F1 car, which is the most accurate to you? What qualities stand out in each sim both good and bad? Which do you prefer? Why?"

Of course his preference doesn't make it mine or yours. But he does have accuracy and feel data we don't. And he has driven multiple titles... iracing, RF and pcars 1 are on that list I believe so his perspective would be interesting.

As I said above, it is terrific SMS have gotten so much feedback from pros. But Collins gave tons of it for pcars 1 and it didn't make that a great sim title, imo. So you can't take a pro driver's comments about pcars being like real life and extrapolate that it is a better sim than the competition or even a good sim, period. Hopefully the core engine in pcars 2 is good enough to take all this pro input and do something great with it.

As a side note: For those that know, much of the community's view of Austin's impartiality with regard to sim racing is shot now that Ian sponsored his racing career. He never had too much with me due to the nature of his website even if he is knowledgeable. But it was a smart business move by Ian. If nothing else it shut down pcars most ardent critic/detractor.

All of your points are valid. I feel this is still a sim versus sim post though. Which it never should be when discussing physics and tire models. Why would a pro, as you said being paid to be a consultant, ever compare what the are consulting on to another product? That's not what they are getting paid to do. They are being paid to compare the product to real life. It's that simple.

 

[F1Racer68]

All of your points are valid. I feel this is still a sim versus sim post though. Which it never should be when discussing physics and tire models. Why would a pro, as you said being paid to be a consultant, ever compare what the are consulting on to another product? That's not what they are getting paid to do. They are being paid to compare the product to real life. It's that simple.

BINGO! And that is also the only thing I care about as well.

As stated before, it's supposed to simulate real life, not simulate another sim. If I wanted something that played "just like AC", then I would simply GET AC. I want something that plays "just like real life" because quite frankly, I cannot afford a real race car, or any of the costs invovled in actually competing with a race car.

 

[Cluck]

Trying to argue that one game is better than another game is like trying to argue that football is a better sport than rugby. It is an utterly pointless argument that nobody will ever win. Play the game that you enjoy playing and say "phooey" to anybody that dare tell you you're wrong for enjoying it

 

[xPiGeOnNiNjA]

Blimey, this was actually a civilised conversation about differences between sims, there is still hope for the world!

 

[ozwheels]

Blimey, this was actually a civilised conversation about differences between sims, there is still hope for the world!

 

[Johnnypenso]

Trying to argue that one game is better than another game is like trying to argue that football is a better sport than rugby. It is an utterly pointless argument that nobody will ever win. Play the game that you enjoy playing and say "phooey" to anybody that dare tell you you're wrong for enjoying it

There are objective elements to every game that can be discussed with civility and objectivity. The problems usually arise when people conflate opinions with facts and confuse objective comparisons in which their game fails as saying that a game sucks because it failed the comparison. I see that happening a lot more often than people telling people they are wrong for enjoying their game. In fact, I'm not sure I've ever seen that sentiment explicity stated, but I've seen countless times that objective statements have been misinterpreted to mean that.

 

[bleeder]

I'm really looking forward to proper multi-class racing in this game, and also hope to see a thread where people can suggest which classes, no matter how ludicrous, go together to make great races. And being able to save to a favourites list in game is a real nice touch.

 

[Cluck]

There are objective elements to every game that can be discussed with civility and objectivity. The problems usually arise when people conflate opinions with facts and confuse objective comparisons in which their game fails as saying that a game sucks because it failed the comparison. I see that happening a lot more often than people telling people they are wrong for enjoying their game. In fact, I'm not sure I've ever seen that sentiment explicity stated, but I've seen countless times that objective statements have been misinterpreted to mean that.

I don't think I've ever seen it written in those exact words either but, the sentiment of many posts is the same. I've lost count of the number of times I've read "pCARS is arcade junk, you should try {insert other sim of choice here}, that's a real sim" and in most instances, that kind of statement is driven purely by personal preference, nothing else.

There are things to enjoy in every sim out there and we all derive our fun and pleasure in different ways. Since there is no single game that caters for what anybody would want, we tend to settle on the game that suits our own personal needs and we will all forgive that game any weaknesses in other areas.

Going back to a comment I read earlier, re. Assetto Corsa feeling like actually driving a car, I found completely the opposite experience myself. In fact, the driving experience was so alien to me, so unlike the real thing that I refunded the game within the 2 hours allowed by Steam. I couldn't derive a single moment's pleasure from something that felt so detached from reality. I'm not going to sit here and say that Project CARS 1 is perfect in every aspect but the reason I enjoy it so much is that, for the most part, it is logical. I'm not driving it like I'm driving a sim, I'm driving. So who's right? Me? The other guy? Truth is, both of us and neither of us. Both of us have found that one game or the other recreates the feeling of driving to our satisfaction but we can't both be right, when both sims are doing it differently.

Again, at the end of that waffle, I go back to my previous point. Drive what you like driving if it makes you happy, whether it's Project CARS, Assetto Corsa, rFactor 2, Raceroom Racing Experience, iRacing, Automobilista, F1 20xx, DiRT, Forza or Gran Turismo. All that matters is that you are enjoying yourself because that's what we turn to games for, to escape reality for a little while and enjoy a small amount of happiness for a while.

 

[05XR8]

I'm really looking forward to proper multi-class racing in this game, and also hope to see a thread where people can suggest which classes, no matter how ludicrous, go together to make great races. And being able to save to a favourites list in game is a real nice touch.

Have I got the thread for you!
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/project-cars-2-multi-class-racing.356810/

 

[Johnnypenso]

I don't think I've ever seen it written in those exact words either but, the sentiment of many posts is the same. I've lost count of the number of times I've read "pCARS is arcade junk, you should try {insert other sim of choice here}, that's a real sim" and in most instances, that kind of statement is driven purely by personal preference, nothing else.

There are things to enjoy in every sim out there and we all derive our fun and pleasure in different ways. Since there is no single game that caters for what anybody would want, we tend to settle on the game that suits our own personal needs and we will all forgive that game any weaknesses in other areas.

Going back to a comment I read earlier, re. Assetto Corsa feeling like actually driving a car, I found completely the opposite experience myself. In fact, the driving experience was so alien to me, so unlike the real thing that I refunded the game within the 2 hours allowed by Steam. I couldn't derive a single moment's pleasure from something that felt so detached from reality. I'm not going to sit here and say that Project CARS 1 is perfect in every aspect but the reason I enjoy it so much is that, for the most part, it is logical. I'm not driving it like I'm driving a sim, I'm driving. So who's right? Me? The other guy? Truth is, both of us and neither of us. Both of us have found that one game or the other recreates the feeling of driving to our satisfaction but we can't both be right, when both sims are doing it differently.

Again, at the end of that waffle, I go back to my previous point. Drive what you like driving if it makes you happy, whether it's Project CARS, Assetto Corsa, rFactor 2, Raceroom Racing Experience, iRacing, Automobilista, F1 20xx, DiRT, Forza or Gran Turismo. All that matters is that you are enjoying yourself because that's what we turn to games for, to escape reality for a little while and enjoy a small amount of happiness for a while.

While this may all be true, you're talking about the subjective. The subjective is your own. Anyone that says game A is junk and Game B is the best is simply doing the same thing as you, just in a trollish kind of manner. While you subjectively can enjoy or dislike any game you want, that doesn't mean that there aren't objective parameters that can be discussed, analyzed and compared between games. The discord occurs when people mix up the subjective and objective. Someone can be right and someone can be wrong when talking about the objective.

 

[Wolfe]

For sure, but this is the only way to completely disassociate the FFB from the physics, when comparing two titles. Even in terms of pure steering rack forces, the balance between can be different in two sims, which is often perceived as physics being different.

Not the only way. If you play with a controller there's obviously no FFB to muddy the comparison. Even if the steering in one game is better than another, you can distinguish the physics from the subjective experience by tracking your actual input at the physics level, either by the steering wheel in cockpit view or by the HUD/telemetry.

It's unfortunate how FFB is potentially a barrier not only to evaluating physics properly, but enjoying a sim at all with a wheel. No doubt FFB is a worthwhile feature to have, but it's also a weak link in the experience, and that's one of the main reasons I'm happy enough playing with a controller.

Why does everyone compare sims to sims? Sims are simulating real life, not each other.

I agree that real life is the target for any sim, but I also agree that the credibility of professionals can be questionable if they lack sim racing experience, unless they dig into objective specifics. Subjective praise could be meaningless if they are earnestly unaware of how a sim stacks up against others and can't identify what's better or worse.

 

[bleeder]

Have I got the thread for you!
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/project-cars-2-multi-class-racing.356810/

Lol

 

[GTsimms]

IMO, what I do almost on a daily basis. Project CARS, represents a RL vehicle closer than other racing sims. SMS admits the first title had its issues! But, the direction they were heading makes me appreciate it more. Do I expect the 2nd title to be absolutely perfect, no! But, better yes! I jumped into WMD2, knowing they were moving in the correct direction with the vehicle physics. Goodwin, Long, Collins, Milner, and others have provided enough feedback. I am not going to question their ability. I will tell you Patrick Long made a great statement about Project CARS 2 after 3:10 in the Porsche video.

 

[jake2013guy]

IMO, what I do almost on a daily basis. Project CARS, represents a RL vehicle closer than other racing sims. SMS admits the first title had its issues! But, the direction they were heading makes me appreciate it more. Do I expect the 2nd title to be absolutely perfect, no! But, better yes! I jumped into WMD2, knowing they were moving in the correct direction with the vehicle physics. Goodwin, Long, Collins, Milner, and others have provided enough feedback. I am not going to question their ability. I will tell you Patrick Long made a great statement about Project CARS 2 after 3:10 in the Porsche video.

I was about to comment about how Tommy Milner said nothing after 3:10. Then I realised...

 

[GTsimms]

The latest information at the WMD2 forums might be interesting!

 

[SRAIKKONEN]

The latest information at the WMD2 forums might be interesting!

Go ooooonnnnnnn....

 

[LGee19]

The latest information at the WMD2 forums might be interesting!

You just got me hyped! Tell us
EDIT: Pleeeease

 

[jake2013guy]

[Insert Generic Complaint about it not being a massive image here]

 

[SRAIKKONEN]

[Insert Generic Complaint about it not being a massive image here]
View attachment 660030

Here's the latest screen shots

 

[GTsimms]

Screenshots and videos will be inbound!