Project CARS 3: General Discussion Thread - Out August 28th, 2020 on XB1/PS4/PC

[Scaff]

... Maybe because we know as much as you guys?
Constructive criticism is welcomed BTW and will get reacted to accordingly.
-I'll get the thing on sale
-this game is trash
-what were SMS thinking
-give us pitstops back
-no Spa?
-...
Are not considered constructive criticism.

Of that list the only one that comes close to being unacceptable would be 'this game is trash' and given that its subjective opinion is still not (in my view) unacceptable.

-I'll get the thing on sale - valid and subjective opinion
-this game is trash - slightly rude, but still a subjective view
-what were SMS thinking - a valid question
-give us pitstops back - valid, request, even if it's futile
-no Spa? - valid question

I go back to a point I raised before. You and the other staff on the official forum (along with any and all SMS staff) may have read these points a thousand time before, but the person posting them may not have, they may have honestly come to the site to simply raise the (for example) Spa point as a genuine question and concern for the first time. The result is that they would be treated by the 'hardcore' SMS fans in one way, they would be viewed as a troll and dog-piled, while the staff stand by and do nothing (at best).

I have no issue with dealing with someone on a forum who is only posting the same negative point over and over again, with no intention of engaging in honest debate, but from what I have seen (and the discord is honestly worse) no distinction is made between them and people who are raising the point for the first time.

It's a rather easy one to resolve as well, put a pinned/sticky post at the top of the board that covers these points (and once the FAQ is finally out that will help as well) and direct people to that when they post, nothing more and nothing less, it stops the discussion in other threads, keeps discussion around that point to one thread, allows you a valid reason to remove or move anyone discussing it outside the pinned thread and still allows the discussion to continue. This will, however, only work if you police the hardcore SMS fans who dog-pile anyone these see as being a 'wrong-un' as right now the official board and discord has the feel of a permitted level of mob-rule.

 

[Zeitoss]

Of that list the only one that comes close to being unacceptable would be 'this game is trash' and given that its subjective opinion is still not (in my view unacceptable).

-I'll get the thing on sale - valid and subjective opinion
-this game is trash - slightly rude, but still a subjective view
-what were SMS thinking - a valid question
-give us pitstops back - valid, request, even if it's futile
-no Spa? - valid question

I go back to a point I raised before. You and the other staff on the official forum (along with any and all SMS staff) may have read these points a thousand time before, but the person posting them may not have, they may have honestly come to the site to simply raise the (for example) Spa point as a genuine question and concern for the first time. The result is that they would be treated by the 'hardcore' SMS fans in one way, they would be viewed as a troll and dog-piled, while the staff stand by and do nothing (at best).

I have no issue with dealing with someone on a forum who is only posting the same negative point over and over again, with no intention of engaging in honest debate, but from what I have seen (and the discord is honestly worse) no distinction is made between them and people who are raising the point for the first time.

It's a rather easy one to resolve as well, put a pinned/sticky post at the top of the board that covers these points (and once the FAQ is finally out that will help as well) and direct people to that when they post, nothing more and nothing less, it stops the discussion in other threads, keeps discussion around that point to one thread, allows you a valid reason to remove or move anyone discussing it outside the pinned thread and still allows the discussion to continue. This will, however, only work if you police the hardcore SMS fans who dog-pile anyone these see as being a 'wrong-un' as right now the official board and discord has the feel of a permitted level of mob-rule.

I wanted to raise more or less the same reply, from the list that Konan posted I think only ''the game is trash'' can be really considered ''not constructive criticism''. It is rude, slightly offensive, and pure ranting.

The other four points that Konan posted fall under constructive criticism group.
For example, raising the issue of pitstops, and argumenting what are the consequences of removing them, and the benefits of reintroducing them back, is definitely a way of building up some good discussion.
We are talking about a game which aims to be considered a racing sim, so it's a very appropriate feature to discuss about it.

 

[Benny44]

I knew as soon as I saw Konan reply, Scaff would be right there. I mean, it's usually the same people saying the same thing. There are a few on this forum who, when I see their name, I know the gist of what they're going to say. Complaining about no Spa, pit stops, tire wear. 'I'm not getting this game', 'It's garbage', maybe on a huge discount' are things they say over and over. Why are you on a forum of a game you've decided you're not going to enjoy? Continuously repeating the same things over and over is the opposite of constructive criticism. It's just unreasonable.

Like many have said (and many hate the phrase) 'if you don't like, don't buy it'. You wanna show SMS you don't approve? Tell them in a constructive manner what you don't like and/or want improved, and DON'T BUY IT. That is what will affect decisions at companies ultimately.

 

[MroczMR]

I knew as soon as I saw Konan reply, Scaff would be right there. I mean, it's usually the same people saying the same thing. There are a few on this forum who, when I see their name, I know the gist of what they're going to say. Complaining about no Spa, pit stops, tire wear. 'I'm not getting this game', 'It's garbage', maybe on a huge discount' are things they say over and over. Why are you on a forum of a game you've decided you're not going to enjoy? Continuously repeating the same things over and over is the opposite of constructive criticism. It's just unreasonable.

Like many have said (and many hate the phrase) 'if you don't like, don't buy it'. You wanna show SMS you don't approve? Tell them in a constructive manner what you don't like and/or want improved, and DON'T BUY IT. That is what will affect decisions at companies ultimately.

You know this can be taken opposite? That many poeple will talk the same but positive about the game. And every time you see them they talk the same think, how good their repaired controller support and added performance customization, and they not care about arcadey changes to the game?

 

[Scaff]

I knew as soon as I saw Konan reply, Scaff would be right there. I mean, it's usually the same people saying the same thing. There are a few on this forum who, when I see their name, I know the gist of what they're going to say. Complaining about no Spa, pit stops, tire wear. 'I'm not getting this game', 'It's garbage', maybe on a huge discount' are things they say over and over. Why are you on a forum of a game you've decided you're not going to enjoy? Continuously repeating the same things over and over is the opposite of constructive criticism. It's just unreasonable.

Like many have said (and many hate the phrase) 'if you don't like, don't buy it'. You wanna show SMS you don't approve? Tell them in a constructive manner what you don't like and/or want improved, and DON'T BUY IT. That is what will affect decisions at companies ultimately.

And they should be stopped from saying it for what reason? How many times are they allowed to say it, what limit exactly would you set?

Please point me to the part of the GTP AUP that says they can't do it?

What you seem to be asking for is an echo chamber, and should the official forums want to head in that direction then they are free to do so, but it will do nothing but hurt the brand. Do you honestly not know how many posts have been made here in regard to the Gran Turismo series and engine sounds, or delays, or AI? Trust me they make the complaints about PC3 seem very, very minor in comparison. As a retired mod here (and one who was active for a good decade) I can assure you I know very, very well what it's like to manage, and the team here manage it very, very well.

Ironically you (and a small number on the official forum) have now become the trope you complain about, anyone mentions anything that could be seen as negative and they get dogpiled by the same people, whereas what I have done in the post you quoted is actually offered a constructive solution, one that has been tried and tested here and works well.

Also not buying something is not the only way that things get changed, not by a long way in this day and age, take a look at Star Wars Battlefront 2 for a very good example of that, fan pressure and positive engagement from the developers turned a product that was a broken microtransaction grind-fest at launch, into a balanced and now loved title. The same can be said for No Man's Sky and a good number of other titles. So no, not buying it isn't the only option, but it does seem to be the only answer to valid criticism that some have.

Oh, and you might want to take a read of this thread before you continue to jump to inaccurate conclusions about me! Or do want to continue to make unsubstantiated claims about me, as the last one didn't seem to work out very well did it (I'm still 49, are you still substantially older than I am)?

 

[Zeitoss]

Don't buy it, but don't say it out loud.

That's bad...

 

[Corsa]

I probably will pick it up eventually, looking forward to a few reviews and more gameplay footage first.

 

[Shaun H]

for some reason I am struggling to enjoy ACC on the standard PS4. I had originally dismissed this title but on second thoughts...…..hmmmm…..I think I will get this on release day. it will be interesting to see how PC3 performs on the standard PS4 compared to ACC.

 

[Benny44]

@Scaff I think if one were to look through this whole thread with an unopinionated view they'd say the 'echo chamber' is one from the negative perspective. I'm just questioning why, if you have claimed you have no interest in this 'garbage game', do you keep coming back to make the same points? You know from your experience in customer relations that negativity is many times easier to spread than positivity.

And there has been constructive criticism, a lot of it, and detailed. And while I've been called a fanboy, I am still on the fence for this game because there are things they've implemented I don't like. And I don't by any means think that SMS has handled this the best they could. But the amount of vitriol by some - a (very vocal) minority - you'd think someone was taking away their firstborn or something.

Just an edit on the first paragraph - the 'you' I was initially referring to was the collective 'you', not you Scaff. I think your points were valid for the most part

 

[MroczMR]

@Scaff I think if one were to look through this whole thread with an unopinionated view they'd say the 'echo chamber' is one from the negative perspective. I'm just questioning why, if you have claimed you have no interest in this 'garbage game', do you keep coming back to make the same points? You know from your experience in customer relations that negativity is many times easier to spread than positivity.

Those people may have no interest in PCars 3 but do have interest in PCars as franchise. They are just let down fans of Project Cars, and try to be very vocal about it so SMS won't make those mistakes in the future. Maybe because of huge backlash this entry has SMS will go back to highly requested route of this series. We will see which group is bigger negative or positive one after game's launch.

 

[Scaff]

@Scaff I think if one were to look through this whole thread with an unopinionated view they'd say the 'echo chamber' is one from the negative perspective.

To be an echo chamber we would have to be actively suppressing and/or removing positive comments, that hasn't happened at all. I can state as a fact that no comments have been removed or edited due to a positive or negative view of PC3 in this thread or any thread on GTP.

@Scaff
I'm just questioning why, if you have claimed you have no interest in this 'garbage game', do you keep coming back to make the same points?

That's what happens if you alienate part of a core base you spent the last two games building up, as an analogy who do you think the most vocal critics of the direction the last Street Fighter were? The core audience for the previous titles.

@Scaff
You know from your experience in customer relations that negativity is many times easier to spread than positivity.

Only if it's dealt with poorly, in fact, I once wrote an internal paper for an OEM that shows that well dealt with complains actually increases customer retention rates and re-purchase intent. What people actually dislike is not problems themselves, its the concern about those problems being dismissed out of hand and the feeling of being ignored, something that sounds rather familiar in this particular case.

@ScaffAnd there has been constructive criticism, a lot of it, and detailed. And while I've been called a fanboy, I am still on the fence for this game because there are things they've implemented I don't like. And I don't by any means think that SMS has handled this the best they could. But the amount of vitriol by some - a (very vocal) minority - you'd think someone was taking away their firstborn or something.

Honestly, if you think this is vitriol try working customer service for an Automotive OEM or in the financial service sector.

I do however notice that while I have answered your questions, you have repeatedly ignored mine?

So let's stick with just one, how many times are people allowed to mention a negative point before it becomes a problem?

 

[Wolfe]

I think both sides have a point. There is no limit to how many times someone may post their complaints, and people who care about Project CARS as a franchise and racing sims more broadly have a stake in being heard -- I have been no different with my complaints on various titles, only giving up once I decide it's pointless to continue.

I was very vocal about Gran Turismo 4, but have hardly posted in the Gran Turismo section since GT5. I quit going to the Forza subforum after FH3, and pretty much quit posting in threads for Codemasters games after DR2.0. Sooner or later it is just fruitless, except to drag the mood down or start arguments. But it is each user's choice to continue speaking their mind or to leave fans alone.

On the other hand, I think it would be fair to say there is one type of negativity we have had enough of in here, and that is people who not only complain about the game but in the process denigrate anyone who would appreciate the new aspects or positives of PCARS3, its change in direction, or "casual" or arcade-style racing games. The recent thread about sounds that @Scaff just linked to is one good example.

 

[Benny44]

@Scaff 5.78 times per person
Seriously though, at some point it's just beating your head against a wall. I've worked in customer service for a big, much hated (rightly so) telecommunications company. I had a lot of very good customer retention experiences, and was regularly one of the best at it. The difference was that I could fix problems, or at least do something to alleviate them. And many times I turned the customer from having a bad experience to a good one. But if a customer was complaining about something that wasn't out yet, and quite obviously couldn't or wasn't being changed and wouldn't stop complaining about the same thing over and over with nothing good to say, that's difficult.

I'm not saying don't complain, but at least say it in a conversational manner. Be open to some sort of discussion instead of just hating everything even if it sounds good. This is not me trying to call everyone out; in fact there are very few who only complain. But if ALL you can do is mock or complain without reasoning it's not helpful and brings everything down. There are things that may be not great in the game; that doesn't mean the company is all bad

 

[Scaff]

@Scaff 5.78 times per person
Seriously though, at some point it's just beating your head against a wall. I've worked in customer service for a big, much hated (rightly so) telecommunications company. I had a lot of very good customer retention experiences, and was regularly one of the best at it. The difference was that I could fix problems, or at least do something to alleviate them. And many times I turned the customer from having a bad experience to a good one. But if a customer was complaining about something that wasn't out yet, and quite obviously couldn't or wasn't being changed and wouldn't stop complaining about the same thing over and over with nothing good to say, that's difficult.

I'm not saying don't complain, but at least say it in a conversational manner. Be open to some sort of discussion instead of just hating everything even if it sounds good. This is not me trying to call everyone out; in fact there are very few who only complain. But if ALL you can do is mock or complain without reasoning it's not helpful and brings everything down. There are things that may be not great in the game; that doesn't mean the company is all bad

And I've already addressed that, as I said when it's clear trolling then I have no issue with action being taken against a user, however, that's not what is happening on the official forums or on the discord when it gets to the point in which threads that ban certain views are created, people get pilled on for mentioning these issues in a constructive manner and the continued response is 'don't like it, don't buy it' becomes pretty much the corporate line, then something is wrong, very wrong. Members on here have, in this thread been providing examples of how this puts them off posting on the official forums, when that happens the staff at that forum should be sitting up and paying attention!

Be honest, when you were working that job, if you had said 'don't like it, don't buy it' what would your career prospects have looked like?

You rightly raise the point that it's difficult, damn right it is, but that doesn't mean you should throw the towel in and drop to the same level, I've already explained a simple and tested route to manage this kind of issues, yet my post still got targeted by yourself as 'well I knew you would reply'. Which if you want to be specific about internet behaviours is an ad-hominem attack, as you are targeting me and not the actual substance of the post I made.

Let's also go back to the post I replied to, which of the following is actually something that a member of a forum should be sanctioned for posting or asking?

-I'll get the thing on sale
-this game is trash
-what were SMS thinking
-give us pitstops back
-no Spa?

As I can assure you that no-one here at GTP has ever been sanctioned for raising similar point about other titles, and the number of vs. threads on here across various titles makes the current spat on the PC forum look like a minor side-event. Seriously take some time to go and look at the GT5 sub-section and go back to when news of standard cars broke, no-one got sanctioned or banned for taking issue with it. Some did for how they did it, but that's not what this is about, this is about a desire to sanction people or ban them from threads for simply raising these issues.

The reason I asked the question about the number of times is, however, an interesting one, as you've simply given what I suspect is a random number greater than one because it's an impossible question to answer. Its utterly subjective, as such no forum can set a rule around it. You either have to allow the complaints and manage them, or ban them outright and create an echo chamber, and the end result of testing that with the 'constructive' thread has resulted in a tiny number of people posting to pretty much congratulate each other on how nice it is. The truth is that thread is dead in the water, as echo chambers all eventually become.

 

[Sentry87]

I think c172ccc is talking about the project cars Reddit SubReddit not the official forum.

https://www.reddit.com/r/pcars/

He was trying to compare the pcars subreddit to the pcars official forum

 

[FrankieStail]

@Scaff makes some very good points regarding the official pc forum.
As a fan of the first two pc instalments I’ve been following the updates on pc3 both here and on the official forum.

I’ll not go over my thoughts on the new direction as I’ve already made my thoughts known here, but with the way certain posts are dealt with over there it’s totally put me off even joining the official forum for the very simple reason that my memory is shot to bits most of the time due to meds’ I’m on, and I’d fear making the same point more than once without realising it and having to deal with who knows what level of abuse I may get back for doing so.

Although the new titles not for me, I still have a general interest in where sms goes next and will still keep up to date with the pc franchise for this very reason.
But not getting involved on the official forum is where I’m at now and from a pr point of view this surely not a great start for the next game?

As a side note, I wish that a lot of posters over the internet in general would take a moment to consider the mental health of others before they post!

 

[Bloodytears]

Game really made some trashy decisions, official response was trashy, why this is not constructive, I failing to see. Not defending this point, but clearly see what lead to it.

 

[torsteinvh]

Let's also go back to the post I replied to, which of the following is actually something that a member of a forum should be sanctioned for posting or asking?

-I'll get the thing on sale
-this game is trash
-what were SMS thinking
-give us pitstops back
-no Spa?

I follow both this forum and the official one, and there never was a problem the first few times a poster mentioned these things. But when these points are repeated by the same people over and over, in just about every thread, it gets a bit tiresome...

 

[Scaff]

I follow both this forum and the official one, and there never was a problem the first few times a poster mentioned these things. But when these points are repeated by the same people over and over, in just about every thread, it gets a bit tiresome...

Was being the operative word, now pretty much as soon as someone mentions it I could name a good handful of people who will jump right on them and not in a positive way (such as here's the thread that explains all of this).

I come back to the point that it should not matter how many times or how tiresome its gets (GT + Vaccum cleaner sounds got far more stored and for far longer, ditto FM Vs GT, ditto standard cars and tracks, etc.) you don't solve it via what amounts to officially sanctioned mob rule, ban being put on it in threads, etc.

 

[Konan]

 

[Titzon Toast]

I follow both this forum and the official one, and there never was a problem the first few times a poster mentioned these things. But when these points are repeated by the same people over and over, in just about every thread, it gets a bit tiresome...

Tiresome to say the least, and when ONE specific thread was started for people who are looking forward to the new game was started, the pitchforks were immediately taken out.

 

[Tank621]

See, we have no issue with criticism of the game but when 90% of the 'criticism' is some variant of 'you should have made a different game' it doesn't really contribute anything of value. That's not really a criticism of the game at all, and that is why we get frustrated. People are complaining because they wanted an entirely different game. We just want to talk about the actual game, not what the game that it isn't, because at the end of the day that is kind of irrelevant.

It's like complaining about a chicken pie because you want an apple pie, well there isn't an apple pie being offered here and no one is making you eat the chicken pie anyway. Anyway, the rest of us are perfectly happy with our chicken pie but having someone constantly going on about how apple pie is the best kind of pie ever kind of sours (pun fully intended) the mood at the table.

Edit: Now I want some pie

 

[NLxAROSA]

The customer is not always right, but how you communicate that to the customer is actually far more important, and the manner in which Nathan and his dad have always worked on that has never been good.

Judging from PC1 and PC2 times, I think Ian did pretty well in communicating with (potential) customers, but his style is not for everyone, and certainly won't work for everyone to just copy. I can name very few folks who can get away with just jumping in on some guys Youtube stream and then talking for hours about PC2 and the whole EA takeover debacle among things. Or sponsoring one of his biggest critics racecar. Lengthy discussions in the haters lions den (RD): check! People try to replicate that style without the character to back it up. And they'll fail.

I loved that Ian was always drumming up buzz before a big launch on all the big forums. The fact that he's not around a lot this time around speaks volumes IMO.

 

[Famine]

It's like complaining about a chicken pie because you want an apple pie, well there isn't an apple pie being offered here...

Though the guys who made the pie have made a reasonably good apple pie and then quite a nice apple pie in the past, and told apple pie fans not to worry because although the next pie will be a spiritual successor to a chicken pie, it will still be all the apple they could want...

... then it turns out to be chicken pie, with an apple drawn on the crust.


Mmm, pie.

 

[Tank621]

Okay, I think we can agree here: Pie is Good

But when people want to discuss the chicken pie and get told they've created an 'echo chamber' because they wanted to have just one conversation about the chicken pie without being interrupted by the apple pie fanbase it is understandable that the chicken pie fanbase is going to be a tad miffed. Especially when there are about half a dozen shops selling apple pie on the same street.

Plus there are all of the chicken pie fans who have only ever been able to get mass-produced frozen pies until now who are excited about this shop offering freshly made chicken pies and come visit the shop only to find a bunch of people protesting the lack of apple pie outside, then the new people are hardly going to feel welcomed to the conversation.

I've gone in way too deep on this pie analogy but I'm gonna roll with it anyway because why the hell not.

 

[MagpieRacer]

Though the guys who made the pie have made a reasonably good apple pie and then quite a nice apple pie in the past, and told apple pie fans not to worry because although the next pie will be a spiritual successor to a chicken pie, it will still be all the apple they could want...

... then it turns out to be chicken pie, with an apple drawn on the crust.


Mmm, pie.

This has to be in the running for best post of 2020.

 

[BFIFE22]

Though the guys who made the pie have made a reasonably good apple pie and then quite a nice apple pie in the past, and told apple pie fans not to worry because although the next pie will be a spiritual successor to a chicken pie, it will still be all the apple they could want...

... then it turns out to be chicken pie, with an apple drawn on the crust.


Mmm, pie.

Especially when they could’ve said “Hey, we realized lots of people like chicken pie, so we are going to make a chicken pie, and it will help our company do well so we can also provide even better Apple pie next. Lovers of both chicken pie and apple pie, rejoice!”

 

[Sentry87]

Though the guys who made the pie have made a reasonably good apple pie and then quite a nice apple pie in the past, and told apple pie fans not to worry because although the next pie will be a spiritual successor to a chicken pie, it will still be all the apple they could want...

... then it turns out to be chicken pie, with an apple drawn on the crust.


Mmm, pie.

Yes, the same apple pie goodness a hardcore apple pie eater could want, but it's chicken!

 

[amazed]

Or they could've made a pie that was half chicken and half apple. Main course and dessert in one package.

 

[GOTMAXPOWER]

I keep checking this thread to see if we've got a Formula E trailer or gameplay footage and y'all talking about pies...