Project CARS General Discussion Thread
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Ameer67
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In simple terms, yes.
Ameer67
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@ JASON_ROCKS1998
As Ameer67 said, FFB is basically giving you the feeling of a real car.
However, how one arrives at conveying that feeling through only the rotary motion of the steering wheel is not so simple. People often want to feel things that are really felt as non rotational movement (vibrations) in the steering wheel and things that come through the chassis of the car or the movement of the drivers body. In most sims some of these things can be synthesized and added to the FFB to give you more driving feel and information about the car's behaviour. Sim racers debate whether that is good or bad, but if it's optional it's the users choice.
For me and many others, FFB have become an essential part of simracing as it adds to the car feeling and immersion. Once you've tried it you will never go back
As Ameer67 said, FFB is basically giving you the feeling of a real car.
However, how one arrives at conveying that feeling through only the rotary motion of the steering wheel is not so simple. People often want to feel things that are really felt as non rotational movement (vibrations) in the steering wheel and things that come through the chassis of the car or the movement of the drivers body. In most sims some of these things can be synthesized and added to the FFB to give you more driving feel and information about the car's behaviour. Sim racers debate whether that is good or bad, but if it's optional it's the users choice.
For me and many others, FFB have become an essential part of simracing as it adds to the car feeling and immersion. Once you've tried it you will never go back
Slightly? Anyone who's investing 100s into Iracing shouldn't be taken serviously when reviewing any other sim, especially if they're Americans. Because no one will rate a 10 times cheaper game made in Europe as good or better than Iracing. There will always be something.
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I was thinking about this, when will PCARS go gold? Theres only 7 weeks to go and from the looks of it, though they're in the polishing stage theres still lots to fix. Anyone have a clue on when we'll see the game ready for launch? Or we'll just see another month or so delay?
@LogiForce -- That's true, but I don't consider any effects that are only executed by force feedback to be a part of the game's physics. For example: a lumpy road surface that causes a FFB response but produces zero effect with a gamepad/keyboard/whatever, or with the wheel's AC adapter unplugged, because it isn't actually simulated at the physics level.
@Captain Roh -- Usually you pick out which things each sim does wrong, individual things that are repeatable and testable (we were just talking about this in the video thread actually), and depending on what someone thinks is important they'll rate the games accordingly. Frankly I'd be amazed if PCARS doesn't have at least one obvious nit to pick, but that's one of the things the consultants and members of WMD have been providing input on this whole time.
I've only played one sim that really nails most of the nuances of handling (Live for Speed) and another that offers close to the same experience at a lower fidelity (Enthusia Professional Racing), so I guess I have to admit I haven't encountered the dilemma of comparing two games that are both very close to correct. I haven't played FM5, GT6, RF2, AC, or GSC yet. FM4 and GT5 weren't up to par, and the older PC sims I've played fall apart once you crank up the slip angle, which is a known shortcoming with the sort of tire models they use. Good enough for racing, but I have a habit of kicking the tail out for some drifts when I get bored of fast laps.
Anyway, I don't even necessarily use a wheel to evaluate physics. I think FFB tends to corrupt the driving experience more often than not. I gave Simraceway a shot once and quickly gave it up, not only because of the free-to-play structure but because the FFB just wasn't there and wrestling with my G25 was too distracting. It seemed like an OK sim otherwise, but it's hard to tell when the FFB gets in the way. That's why I prefer to consider physics and force feedback as separate things.
@Captain Roh -- Usually you pick out which things each sim does wrong, individual things that are repeatable and testable (we were just talking about this in the video thread actually), and depending on what someone thinks is important they'll rate the games accordingly. Frankly I'd be amazed if PCARS doesn't have at least one obvious nit to pick, but that's one of the things the consultants and members of WMD have been providing input on this whole time.
I've only played one sim that really nails most of the nuances of handling (Live for Speed) and another that offers close to the same experience at a lower fidelity (Enthusia Professional Racing), so I guess I have to admit I haven't encountered the dilemma of comparing two games that are both very close to correct. I haven't played FM5, GT6, RF2, AC, or GSC yet. FM4 and GT5 weren't up to par, and the older PC sims I've played fall apart once you crank up the slip angle, which is a known shortcoming with the sort of tire models they use. Good enough for racing, but I have a habit of kicking the tail out for some drifts when I get bored of fast laps.
Anyway, I don't even necessarily use a wheel to evaluate physics. I think FFB tends to corrupt the driving experience more often than not. I gave Simraceway a shot once and quickly gave it up, not only because of the free-to-play structure but because the FFB just wasn't there and wrestling with my G25 was too distracting. It seemed like an OK sim otherwise, but it's hard to tell when the FFB gets in the way. That's why I prefer to consider physics and force feedback as separate things.
LogiForce
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I think you are misunderstanding what I said. Cause what I said was that if the car hits that bump, the Physics calculates the impact on tyres and suspension. If the tyres move left and/or right enough to cause the steering rack to be moved, than the Physics engine sends that steering rack data through a ForceFeedback system which generates a Force Feedback signal. That Forcefeedback signal is than executed.
The key here and the tricky bit is that you have to have a fast calculating Physics and FFB system as well as near zero input lag on the wheel. If all of those bits are not in sync the feedback you feel seems delayed or would feel like something was not correct.
The more direct the wheel is moved in sync with what happens on a Physics level, the more real and correct the forcefeedback will feel.
That is... as long as you use pure steering rack simulation. If you add optional bits like seat-of-pants, than the wheel won't move as the Physics depicts (even minus the human factor holding the wheel). In other words optional 'fake' informational forces cause the wheel to do extra things than normal, and will cause the system to go out of sync to a certain extend.
I know it's a complicated matter. Hence we have a small group at WMD that's pretty dedicated to this stuff. What the end-user needs to know is that it will just feel fine out of the box. As Empty Box has already noted. It's the best forcefeedback of any game... better than iRacing and AC or anything else. Plus it is still improving if I might add.
And what I'm saying is that's not always the case (see Gran Turismo, but maybe not GT6) and any effects that are only FFB output and not represented within the physics -- like some of the seat-of-the-pants effects you mentioned -- should not be considered "physics" just because they impact your driving. I think people too often judge the physics of a game based upon how it "feels" with a wheel, which is subjective and way too dependent upon your hardware and settings.
Physics is about variables, equations, and vectors, not the rubber grips beneath your fingers.
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^ Well, even e.g. your body being subjected to g-forces which causes you to move relative to the wheel and/or tense your muscles are actually physical phenomena that occur while racing. Just like e.g. lateral forces cause tyre load and deformation which again causes suspension movement and forces on the spindle which are in the end felt through the FFB. The problem lies in how to simulate it properly if one wants to include these phenomena in the racing experience. Motion platforms or motion seats is one answer, another is the addition of 'plausible' rotational movement/torque to signal those effects to the driver.
As always, humans are very adaptable, and even a not completely realistic movement/torque coming through the wheel can be learnt and associated with some car behaviour, or even just add to the joy and excitement. Of course, when the sim has a good FFB implementation with optional features, the players are free to find the combinations that works best for them
As always, humans are very adaptable, and even a not completely realistic movement/torque coming through the wheel can be learnt and associated with some car behaviour, or even just add to the joy and excitement. Of course, when the sim has a good FFB implementation with optional features, the players are free to find the combinations that works best for them
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LogiForce
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And what I'm saying is that's not always the case (see Gran Turismo, but maybe not GT6) and any effects that are only FFB output and not represented within the physics -- like some of the seat-of-the-pants effects you mentioned -- should not be considered "physics" just because they impact your driving. I think people too often judge the physics of a game based upon how it "feels" with a wheel, which is subjective and way too dependent upon your hardware and settings.
Physics is about variables, equations, and vectors, not the rubber grips beneath your fingers.
Oh yeah, I agree with that. Force feedback is indeed not Physics... at all.
You also do not want to know how often the SMS devs have told to WMD members "That's force feedback related and that's not the Physics. We want you to test the Physics and we'll go over the force feedback later", or things to that extend. A lot of people didn't really understand where to draw the line between what Physics was and how that is seperate from force feedback.
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your right! Its actually 14,670,000 words based of the following:
(60*8)*30+(30*9)=14,670
14670*1000=14,670,000 words all said in just over 8 minutes
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yes i calculated it. Its simple maths
Didi you really count it?
But the video shows FFB in action, that's why I posted.
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Are there any talks on the WMD forum about a Demo?
LogiForce
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There will be no demo due to us already running way too late on finishing the game itself. So there won't be any time to make a demo even if the team would desire it.
You'll probably have to wait for end-user responses to make up your mind after launch if you are still in doubt. Or find a place where it will be demonstrated in maybe a PS4 or XB1 cabinet. Although it is up to shops to decide to drop in the pCARS disc or not I think.
So I'm sorry, but a demo is just not viable due to the circumstances. I hope you understand.
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It's just really, really sad that racing sim games - as niche a sector as you're going to get, which relies heavily on the support of all corners of the dedicated community - gains an eejit like that who thinks "yes, this is the industry full of corruption and conspiracy that I need to expose."
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It's just really, really sad that racing sim games - as niche a sector as you're going to get, which relies heavily on the support of all corners of the dedicated community - gains an eejit like that who thinks "yes, this is the industry full of corruption and conspiracy that I need to expose."
What blog?
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A blog that'll lower your IQ the more you read it. Its not worth your time.
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All that talk about FFB... I can tell you this - I used to test pCARS with a controller for a long long time and finally decided to use my DFGT in the last couple of month. Well, I've been missing a lot. Really, it's like a different game with the wheel. Yeah, playing with the controller is nice and fun but it doesn't come close to playing with the wheel. I never thought much about DFGT - it's a solid, reliable, basic wheel but nothing special. Well, with the latest FFB improvements it made it feel like a million bucks. I'm sure if I tried one of the high end wheels I'd be blown away, but still I have found that even with something like this wheel you can really feel the road, bumps, kerbs, and damage that your car sustains. I really urge you guys to get a wheel to play this, if you can afford one.
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I, on the other hand, tried it for the first time with the PS4 pad on PC today and after some fiddling with the settings, I really liked it. Left ABS on though and some cars still felt quite twitchy (Alpine and Boss Mustang, specifically), but I guess thats also a case of getting used to it. The Z4 GT3 was pure bliss to drive with the pad at Road Murrica.
LogiForce
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...and if you have the room for it.
Gamepads are indeed nice, but i've never seen a professional driver drive his car around with a gamepad. Not even those Nissan prototypes at Le Mans. Meaning that the wheel is still the best interface for a (virtual) car, mechanical or wired (as in modern electric cars).
