Project CARS General Discussion Thread

  • Thread starter Terronium-12
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I don't take any comment on "Physics" serious unless it comes from guys like Niels Heusinkveld, Dave Kaemmer or Doug Arnao (Guys that actually know how to simulate real time car physics/dynamics). Every claim that something is wrong/unrealistic would certainly be demonstrated and explained if the comment comes from an expert in this field.

Every comment beyond that basically comes down to a feel someone might have or expectations that are not met. Every single physics simulation ot there uses simplifications here and there or uses "creative guesses" to fill in data that is not available.

99,9% of lurkers in the sim racing bubble don't know anything about the science behind real time car physics or what it feels like to drive a car on the edge - me included of course and thats why it is nonsense to get hyped or disappointed by something a dude on the internet has claimed.
 
blowfishrulez
I don't take any comment on "Physics" serious unless it comes from guys like Niels Heusinkveld, Dave Kaemmer or Doug Arnao (Guys that actually know how to simulate real time car physics/dynamics). Every claim that something is wrong/unrealistic would certainly be demonstrated and explained if the comment comes from an expert in this field.

Every comment beyond that basically comes down to a feel someone might have or expectations that are not met. Every single physics simulation ot there uses simplifications here and there or uses "creative guesses" to fill in data that is not available.

99,9% of lurkers in the sim racing bubble don't know anything about the science behind real time car physics or what it feels like to drive a car on the edge - me included of course and thats why it is nonsense to get hyped or disappointed by something a dude on the internet has claimed.
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Nicely said. Everyone think they are experts. lol

Just as long as it doesn't feel like I'm ice skating or the car floating on the track (*Cough *Couch GT) I consider the physics well-done. Let's hope that by the time we all get our hands on PCars we won't be disappointed.
 
Basically, when someone says an LMP or Formula car is more realistic in game X than game Y I have to giggle. Like an armchair-driver is qualified in any way to make that statement. "I'm not a race car driver, but I play one on the computer, so that makes me qualified as if I was a real one". :lol:
 
@PRO_TOO -- I was thinking of sim racing in general when I wrote that.

On consoles, it's pretty reasonable to expect it to surpass Gran Turismo and Forza, but personally, I don't know if it can top Enthusia Professional Racing. I'm a huge EPR fanboy, so Project CARS will have to be top-notch to dethrone that game in my mind. ;) PCARS will simulate a trunkload of details that are absent in EPR, of course -- it's a PS2 game from 2005 -- so depending on your definition of "simulator" it may be a foregone conclusion. But will it also do as good of a job with the fundamental dynamics of understeer/oversteer, low speed physics, or weight transfer/distribution? It's tough to get those things just right.

Enthusia isn't perfect; its physics engine is relatively low-fidelity, which makes it feel a little "murky" or smoothed-over, and it's a bit too easy to handle (if you know what you're doing). However, it still feels akin to a "lite" version of a world-class simulator, IMHO. It was Konami's first attempt at a racing sim, and they took it seriously. It flopped for a variety of reasons, but now it's a cult classic known for its convincing physics.

As much as I love EPR, it also means I've had nothing better to play for ten years now, so I do hope PCARS can deliver! :)
 
NLxAROSA
Basically, when someone says an LMP or Formula car is more realistic in game X than game Y I have to giggle. Like an armchair-driver is qualified in any way to make that statement. "I'm not a race car driver, but I play one on the computer, so that makes me qualified as if I was a real one". :lol:
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Exactly, especially members of a certain mp only racing game tend to lose reality: They are playing the WoW of racing games, nothing more, nothing less.
 
Wolfe
@PRO_TOO -- I was thinking of sim racing in general when I wrote that.

On consoles, it's pretty reasonable to expect it to surpass Gran Turismo and Forza, but personally, I don't know if it can top Enthusia Professional Racing. I'm a huge EPR fanboy, so Project CARS will have to be top-notch to dethrone that game in my mind. ;) PCARS will simulate a trunkload of details that are absent in EPR, of course -- it's a PS2 game from 2005 -- so depending on your definition of "simulator" it may be a foregone conclusion. But will it also do as good of a job with the fundamental dynamics of understeer/oversteer, low speed physics, or weight transfer/distribution? It's tough to get those things just right.

Enthusia isn't perfect; its physics engine is relatively low-fidelity, which makes it feel a little "murky" or smoothed-over, and it's a bit too easy to handle (if you know what you're doing). However, it still feels akin to a "lite" version of a world-class simulator, IMHO. It was Konami's first attempt at a racing sim, and they took it seriously. It flopped for a variety of reasons, but now it's a cult classic known for its convincing physics.

As much as I love EPR, it also means I've had nothing better to play for ten years now, so I do hope PCARS can deliver! :)
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thank you for that. im calm now. :D
 
blowfishrulez
Exactly, especially members of a certain mp only racing game tend to lose reality: They are playing the WoW of racing games, nothing more, nothing less.
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You mean the same ones that claim their equipment is professional and low-end wheels are toys? Not realizing that something being more expensive doesn't make it professional, but just makes it a more expensive toy? :lol:

(but this is completely offtopic of course ;))
 


Something I noticed in a video last night (above) was that the AI seems to have assists (notably TCS) enabled even though a player does not. It's most obvious in the Lotus race (6:35) as that car has a lot of turbo lag which catches out the player but not the AI.

Will it be possible to restrict the assists that AI drivers use in the final game?


(note: This video is from early February, so forgive my ignorance if certain things have been patched in since then)
 
PJTierney


Something I noticed in a video last night (above) was that the AI seems to have assists (notably TCS) enabled even though a player does not. It's most obvious in the Lotus race (6:35) as that car has a lot of turbo lag which catches out the player but not the AI.

Will it be possible to restrict the assists that AI drivers use in the final game?


(note: This video is from early February, so forgive my ignorance if certain things have been patched in since then)
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You have to be faster than the AI to win. If you cant do it, practice more or turn your driving aids on. There is always an option to tune down AI difficulty. It really doesn't matter if the AI uses "aids" to reach their times or not.
 
blowfishrulez
You have to be faster than the AI to win. If you cant do it, practice more or turn your driving aids on. There is always an option to tune down AI difficulty. It really doesn't matter if the AI uses "aids" to reach their times or not.
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uuu... that answer is a little "easy"!? what about same conditions!? i dont want to be a nitpicker but all cars, AI and me, starting under the same conditions is prefered by me. to set the AI level is fine.
 
No it isn't. Lets say you are playing with aids online and a guy is running circles around you without aids. What do you want to do? Tell him to turn aids on to be "at the same condition" you are? Do you think he suddenly will be as slow as you are?

EDIT: And what is the result of being able to handle a car properly? Exactly, you are getting faster. That has nothing to do with the aids your opponents are using, not at all.
 
I am not concerned about AI pace, moreso that I am on a "level playing field" with the AI.

I initially enjoyed the AI of GRID: Autosport but once I realised that it was "cheating" (not getting penalties for contact and corner cutting, not getting damage, driving with assists always on etc.) I instantly stopped playing the game (as online wasn't as fun). If I'm doing a Career race in the rain I'd like to know that when racing the AI they'll be dealing with the same conditions I am.

If the AI is faster than me while also playing to the same limitations I am, I can accept that and learn to go faster. If the AI is beating me while being allowed to use assists that I am not (for example, if I set assists to "realistic" and use a car that doesn't have TCS/ABS) then it's hard to know if I am slower because they are using assists or because I am not driving fast enough.
 
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blowfishrulez
No it isn't. Lets say you are playing with aids online and a guy is running circles around you without aids. What do you want to do? Tell him to turn aids on to be "at the same condition" you are? Do you think he suddenly will be as slow as you are?

EDIT: And what is the result of being able to handle a car properly? Exactly, you are getting faster. That has nothing to do with the aids your opponents are using, not at all.
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online is different. ill prefer lobbies where everyone is starting with the same aids. nearly none. thats the way for me to go. why? cause i want to get better. by turning off aids i think im gonna improve my handling, my understanding for the car. so lets say in a lobby all players start with no aids but i cant compete with them and i turn TCS or something on, that want bother the other (better players) but im having fun drinving wih them and not way behind. aids are like to compensate to me. so this is online with buddies!

offline, against AI, i want all cars to be at the same aid level. if im to good against AI at 100% then i can turn my aids off to have a proper competition.
 
PRO_TOO
uuu... that answer is a little "easy"!? what about same conditions!? i dont want to be a nitpicker but all cars, AI and me, starting under the same conditions is prefered by me. to set the AI level is fine.
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Since the AI uses a different (simplified) tyre model, having the same conditions is literally impossible. AI doesn't use the same aids as the player and won't behave different when the player turns assists on/off.
 
Timppaq
You know who is actually driving the AI cars? It's the same machine that is applying the simulated AIDS too. So it really is only about the quality of the race you're getting, not about how it's calculated.
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So it's all up to the game.
I thought in a race against AI, when all drive the same cars and all have the same aids it was like fair.
I think I can't make my point here. Will try to clear this with the German guys via pm.
Bealdor
Since the AI uses a different (simplified) tyre model, having the same conditions is literally impossible. AI doesn't use the same aids as the player and won't behave different when the player turns assists on/off.
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I did not know that. So there will never be equal conditions.
 
PRO_TOO
So it's all up to the game.
I thought in a race against AI, when all drive the same cars and all have the same aids it was like fair.
I think I can't make my point here. Will try to clear this with the German guys via pm.

I did not know that. So there will never be equal conditions.
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There is no such thing as equal racing conditions. There is always a better setup car or driver. There are simply too many variables.
 
Bealdor
Since the AI uses a different (simplified) tyre model, having the same conditions is literally impossible. AI doesn't use the same aids as the player and won't behave different when the player turns assists on/off.
Click to expand...

I cant remember reading a comment from the devs saying: Damn we wish we could add the awesome feature "make AI aids tuneable", but we cant because our tire model is simplified. Unless i get a source for that id say youre making this up. Not the part with the simplified tire model but that being the reason not to tinker with "AI aids". There is a reason not a single racing game has this feature (afaik) -> I think it simply makes no sense.
 
I didn't know how games implemented their AI but i had a hunch they weren't using the same conditions as you are.
In a perfect world the AI should adjust it's aids and have the same tyre model as you, but to be honest so far it hasn't bothered me to the point that you really notice that they are cheating. For example like @PJTierney says he noticed the AI cheats a bit in GAS, i played it a lot and i just had a great time racing them so i never realized. Wouldn't hamper with my experience neither because i know now. The racing is fun and if you drive good enough you can beat them.

About the preview on the last page, he gives the impression it's either all aids on or all aids off? That's BS no?

And @Wolfe thanks for the introduction to Enthusia, i can't believe i missed that game during my PS2 days :(, looks better than GT4 even...
 
PJTierney
not getting penalties for contact and corner cutting, not getting damage, driving with assists always on etc.
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How do you know they have "assists on"? Everything else you mentioned has nothing to do with aids, it is simply cheating, also known as "bug, introduced by taking shortcuts in balancing the game"
 
The Tcs is adjustable allowing you to change the slip percentage.
ABS in most cars is not adjustable however is affected by brake balance and brake pressure.
The link to the preview for a page or to a go seems to give me the impression of the following things:
  • He wanted a arcade racer
  • He doesn't know the difference between race car dynamics and road car dynamics.
  • He hasn't done much research on the game.
  • He cant drive
 
blowfishrulez
I cant remember reading a comment from the devs saying: Damn we wish we could add the awesome feature "make AI aids tuneable", but we cant because our tire model is simplified. Unless i get a source for that id say youre making this up. Not the part with the simplified tire model but that being the reason not to tinker with "AI aids". There is a reason not a single racing game has this feature (afaik) -> I think it simply makes no sense.
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http://forum.wmdportal.com/showthread.php?21406-AI-and-driving-aids&p=861699&viewfull=1#post861699
 
blowfishrulez
There is a reason not a single racing game has this feature (afaik) -> I think it simply makes no sense.
Click to expand...

If I remember correctly, Codemasters made claims for some of its F1 games that your opponents don't have any assists enabled and can make mistaks similar to a human player. I can't remember which title it was but I believe it was either F1 2011 or F1 2012.

blowfishrulez
How do you know they have "assists on"?
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When driving a high-powered car you could see how easily the AI drivers were able to get on the throttle out of low speed corners, without any wheelspin. I saw similar things in the video I linked earlier.

It could be the case that the AI is "perfectly" matching their throttle inputs to the amount of grip that is available, or it could be that the AI has TCS enabled.

Either way, it's not going to massively detract my interest from Project CARS as I intend to be more active in multiplayer, but it is something I wanted to follow up on in this thread regardless.
 
I can tell you that my experience with AI is it's the best one I've had in any racing game to date (started playing racing games in late 90s). For the most part I don't think whether AI is cheating or not. It seems believable. So there's that. I guess you'll find out for yourself when you get the game in your hands though.
 
PJTierney
If I remember correctly, Codemasters made claims for some of its F1 games that your opponents don't have any assists enabled and can make mistaks similar to a human player. I can't remember which title it was but I believe it was either F1 2011 or F1 2012.
Click to expand...
Part of the AI behavior is to make occasional mistakes.

When driving a high-powered car you could see how easily the AI drivers were able to get on the throttle out of low speed corners, without any wheelspin. I saw similar things in the video I linked earlier.

It could be the case that the AI is "perfectly" matching their throttle inputs to the amount of grip that is available, or it could be that the AI has TCS enabled.

Either way, it's not going to massively detract my interest from Project CARS as I intend to be more active in multiplayer, but it is something I wanted to follow up on in this thread regardless.
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As mentioned by others, the AI uses a simplified tyre model, like in all(?) sims. Computing the high-fidelity player model for a large AI field wouldn't be possible. The AI is then tuned for turning in plausible lap times, driving lines and behavior.

The player however needs the full high fidelity model because we have to give the player "feeling" - and that feeling component, which is derived from very detailed physics, is hugely expensive to compute. The AI don't need the "feeling", they "only" need to pull the correct amount of g's, make the right (or wrong...) maneuvers and turn in plausible lap times.

Whether the AI use e.g. ABS or threshold braking to brake into a turn isn't of any consequence for the final result. That is, we don't "need to know", and if we knew it wouldn't make a difference anyway. I.e. the full in depth tyre model and driving assists would be wasted on the AI.
 
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