PS3 General Discussion

[icelt]

OK, found this in a ArsTechnica forum on the same topic of trying to emulate the PS2's GS chip in software:

posted by milan616 on 10/05/07

No, it isn't doable at 100% the speed of the PS2. Copy & pasted content I wrote in another thread on Battlefront.

I'm sure they could emulate the logic portions of the Graphics Synthesizer all day long, but they just don't have enough memory bandwidth anywhere outside of the caches (which are too small) to match that massive 48GB/s bandwidth that the EDRAM on the GS had. Even in a crazy (seriously, its insane) hypothetical situation where they were to somehow aggregate both the main and graphics memory buses, combined they wouldn't cut it, nor would there be enough left over for the rest of the PS2's emulation needs.

Oh and don't you worry, Microsoft will have the exact same problem on their hands if they don't include at least 10MB of EDRAM with 256GB/s bandwidth on their next console.

So if accurate, then it looks like no PS2 BC going forward for anyone who buys the new 40GB model. However it is probably worth mentioning that PS1 BC is still fully functional in this model. Some consolation prize that though

 

[Tornado]

I have thought it over, and while I still think a variation of the 20gb model would be better (you cannot imagine the complaining that I had already heard over the 40gb model, and this is before Sony said the 60gb model was being dropped), it does make the PS3 look more attractive as a Blu-Ray player.
However, a couple of points:

and especially when based on how little to no evidence there is that this so-called fiasco over hardware VS software BC impacted sales

Which is really a moot point, because as sales of the PS3 in Europe were never included in the hardware emulation, it would be impossible to prove in any case. And this is especially true since European sales were far weaker anyways because there was never a low cost model. I'm merely going over the fact that when Sony announced no hardware emulation for Europe, the Internet flared up in a hilarious way. I'm not saying that the amount of people who complained was even close to the amount of people who would have legitimately not bought a PS3 over the issue, but the fact that the response was so overwhelmingly negative tells you something even though the emulation was so good. Dropping it has lead to another huge backlash from Europeans even after such a short time.
And regardless of if hardware vs. software hurt sales, dropping emulation entirely is completely different from making it somewhat less effective. Especially with PS2 sales of hardware and games being so strong still.

I also think you are making a lot of assumptions, including the assumption that there won’t be PS3's with BC support for those that do care that much about BC support and willing to pay to have it.

First of all, I never made assumptions of the like. And since that is no longer an assumption, as Sony has confirmed they are dropping the 60gb model entirely without naming a successor (though I'm sure one will be coming, I won't argue as if it were unless it is guaranteed to be coming), what now? To many it looks as if Sony is saying the hell with it, and you can't argue that people who wanted BC would have bought one already, because I know many Americans who have been waiting for a price drop before they even touch the PS3 (myself included). And they aren't currently under threat of loss of BC.
You also can't argue that if people wanted BC so much than they would just have a PS2, because if that was the case than I hope we can expunge from the record everyone who ever argued in favor of BC ever in the history of video games. And for that matter, we have multiple people in this thread who have just recently stated preference to the PS3 emulation rather than having two consoles. And what about those nursing there PS2s in the end of their lives until they get a PS3 (hardly an uncommon occurrence)? What happens when their PS2 blows up after they buy their no BC PS3? Do they buy another PS2?
And at the same time, Sony hasn't been doing so well over in Europe with the PS3. So one could easily argue that it was because of BC issues (though it was likely only because there was only one model, I will concede) more than anything else, and if there is no 60gb model replacement, Sony could have just made a very stupid move.

 

[FoolKiller]

Just to weigh in with my two cents on the whole BC issue.

I have probably put in nearly as much game time into GT4 on my PS3 as PS3 games. Were it not that the Gran Turismo series is my favorite game series then BC would most likely not matter, nor would it matter if GT5 were a launch title. As it is, I probably wouldn't have gotten the PS3 if it did not have BC. Due to budgetary and wife issues I couldn't have done it. I didn't have money to build a whole new gaming library and my wife does not want clutter in the living room so our agreement is that I only get new systems if I get rid of the old one.

If Sony had a huge list of killer apps out I wouldn't see the big deal with lacking BC because we would all just forget about it as we have all these great new games to distract us. But I have yet to find a driving game that draws me back in the way GT4 does and I am sure there are people who have other PS2 games that are the same, such as GTA or Metal Gear Solid. I enjoy F1:CE and marvel at it technically, but driving an F1 car around doesn't make up for my desire to grab one of my hundreds of GT4 cars and whip around the ring for hours.

I don't think BC is a huge issue, but until the Sony library gets built up and has a full list of must play, can't put it down games lacking it may turn some people off. I know that had I not had it I would be waiting for the full version of GT5 before buying my PS3.

I think this may just be an issue that only resonates with certain people and not all.

 

[Tornado]

And now Sony has essentially killed off BC when the 60gb model is sold out, as there will be no replacement for the 60gb when they are gone. So, you were saying, Digital?

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

And now Sony has essentially killed off BC when the 60gb model is sold out, as there will be no replacement for the 60gb when they are gone. So, you were saying, Digital?

Have you forgotten already and unable to see it in the thread?

If so, here you go:

That's OK, I also think you are overestimating the amount of people who do care, and especially when based on how little to no evidence there is that this so-called fiasco over hardware VS software BC impacted sales… just a lot of internet speculation and personal opinion.

Let's not forget, most console owners are not nearly as geeky as you find on various online gaming forums where you'll find people arguing endlessly over the most meaningless things that they themselves don't even care about, but enjoy arguing over nonetheless.

I also think you are making a lot of assumptions, including the assumption that there won’t be PS3's with BC support for those that do care that much about BC support and willing to pay to have it. Currently at least, all PS3 models have BC support, and the 40GB edition isn't even out yet, which sort of makes this arguement look like the example I gave earlier where some people like to argue over rather meaningless things.

You assumed there would be no replacement, and now that that appears to be confirmed (at least for now), we no longer have to assume that.

Of course we can also assume that might also change by the time current European stock of 60GB PS3's run out, which would again make all this rather meaningless. After all, we already have plenty of examples where a company says one thing and does another, especially Microsoft and Sony in the console market. So even now, you are still assuming what the unnamed Sony rep has said is true, and that the 40GB PS3 will be the only model available in Europe in the future… which of course in it self seems extremely unlikely.

However, just as I said before, but you seem to ignore is that currently at least, all PS3 models have BC support, and the 40GB edition isn't even out yet. Furthermore, even if in time there is no new PS3 model with BC support for Europe, for those that feel it is important, they will still be able to get a new PS3 from another market... as many have been doing for sometime already to take advantage of the weak dollar. And of course there is always the used market as well... although personally, I think all of this is a non issue, but only time will tell.

Other than appearing to try to start another online fight over something that doesn't even impact you, has not yet become an actual issue as far as being able to get a PS3 with BC support, and we don't really know what may happen after all the current stock of 60GB PS3 in Europe sell out, and people will always be able to buy PS3 from different markets, what's your point?


Has it been too peaceful in here for you now that Duck has avoided posting any anti-PS3 rhetoric, and so you feel the need to "stir the pot"?

 

[icelt]

A quote (in part) from Sony to Next-Gen regarding BC (also had to include their awesome image for the article):

"The sheer numbers of PS2 titles available, together with the increased complexity of using a software only solution for each and every title means that to ensure accurate software emulation for the majority would be technically challenging, time consuming and costly. As we have mentioned on several occasions, our engineering resources are now focused on developing new and innovative features and services for the PS3 and, as a result the 40GB model does not have backwards compatibility with PS2 titles."

So almost a complete confirmation that Sony will not develop a full software emulation solution to provide future BC on the 40GB. Unless they decide to change their minds of course, of which they have no history


And then this regarding the insinuation that the 40GB is now and forever the only model that Europe will get (a partial quote once again):

"Whilst we do not rule out introducing alternative specification models in the future we believe that the 40Gb model meets the needs of consumers in the SCEE territories at the current time."

So once all the Euro-spec 60GB's are gone and SCEE announces that they are adding an 80GB (or whatever size) "Premium" PS3 to the lineup that has BC don't be surprised.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

Exactly. 👍

 

[Tornado]

You assumed there would be no replacement, and now that that appears to be confirmed (at least for now), we no longer have to assume that.

No, I did not, once again, assume that there would be no replacement. I in fact assumed that there would be.

1. Other than appearing to try to start another online fight over something that doesn't even impact you, 2. has not yet become an actual issue as far as being able to get a PS3 with BC support, 3. and we don't really know what may happen after all the current stock of 60GB PS3 in Europe sell out, 4. and people will always be able to buy PS3 from different markets, 5. what's your point?

Address each one of your criticisms as a separate bullet.

1. It shouldn't need to effect me for me to be allowed an opinion on it, or this thread would have only news in it. And the way Sony is screwing around in Europe so far has had very real effects in how things happen here, so it may very well effect me.
   
2. No it has not, but note how PS3s still aren't exactly flying off shelves in Europe, which lowering the price to 349 pounds alone would probably help more than forcing the issue over what is essentially a stripper model.
3. No, but Sony's announcement points more towards only he 40GB being sold than anything else.
   
4. Ruins the ability for it to be a cheap Blu-Ray player, if I recall correctly. Or a media player of any kind, for that matter. If I remember correctly, as well, you can't play import BC software on your PS3 anyways, so what would that solve, pray tell? And it is hardly as easy as going down to the local Wal-Mart and picking up a PS3 (ESPECIALLY for someone who was so vocal about how importing a PS3 was such a silly idea). Which totally ruins the ability for casual players to get it, possibly even more than the price.
   
5. My point is that it is very Sega-like of Sony to say "Yep, the PS2 is still outselling everything. And the PS3 was able to play all of those titles still pouring off of assembly lines with 'Playstation 2" on the cover. So lets take that away when the Playstation 2 is still selling very strong." In short? I've seen first hand what happens when a company alienates its fanbase and throws them away. And Sony has a lot farther to fall than Sega did. And this is ignoring the unreliability of the PS2, and that many sold their old systems to buy PS3s. Or how the PS3 hardly has the system selling killer apps that the PS2 has/had.

 

[Solid Fro]

New white 40GB PS3 and Dualshock 3.

http://kotaku.com/gaming/breaking/price-drop-white-40gb-ps3-hitting-japan-308550.php

http://kotaku.com/gaming/vibe/dualshock-3-getting-all-ceramic-white-for-japan-308546.php

 

[Dead_Poetic]

So they arent putting in backwards compatibility in just the 40 gb ones?

 

[FoolKiller]

So they arent putting in backwards compatibility in just the 40 gb ones?

That's the big question. If it is just this model then it makes sense because this makes a good entry system if you just want something to jump into next-gen gaming and a cheap BD player. It hurts Europe though because they don't have the 80gb model.....yet.

Now, if they remove BC on all models going forward then it is odd considering how much of a point they have made BC since the PS2 first came out. Joystiq has even gone on to point out quotes from Phil Harrison a year ago about how BC was tied into the Playstation brand and made it a great value with thousands of available titles. Their story seems to have changed to it not being important, a complete 180 from a year ago. Joystiq also pointed out that removing software emulation only saves $27 per system, making the cost savings excuse fairly weak.


From what I can tell the 60gb and 80gb models still being sold will still have the BC, which makes this a non-issue outside of Europe. How big of an issue it is in Europe will be determined by the public.

 

[DuckRacer]

New white 40GB PS3 and Dualshock 3.

http://kotaku.com/gaming/breaking/price-drop-white-40gb-ps3-hitting-japan-308550.php

http://kotaku.com/gaming/vibe/dualshock-3-getting-all-ceramic-white-for-japan-308546.php

That's hot. Might have to import that DS3 since Ratchet and Uncharted are supporting it out of the box.

Joystiq also pointed out that removing software emulation only saves $27 per system, making the cost savings excuse fairly weak.

...That's actually pretty substantial. And they're removing 2 USB ports, going to 65nm Cells, removing the card readers, and toning down the power supply as well – it's not like removing BC was the only cost reducing factor.

From what I can tell the 60gb and 80gb models still being sold will still have the BC, which makes this a non-issue outside of Europe. How big of an issue it is in Europe will be determined by the public.

Well, Japan is getting the 40GB as well, and the 40GB is rumored to hit NA November 2nd. It all really depends what happens to the 80GB when the announcement hits. If they stop producing that and only produce the BC-less 40GB in Europe and NA, there's not a whole lot that would have them change motherboards again (or try to create an effective software solution that MS tried to do – and fell short) and put back BC short of a public outcry.

Me? I have mixed feelings. On one hand, this 40GB would let them be effective this Christmas and give the 360 a run for its money. On the other hand, BC was what made the PlayStation a PlayStation. Sony's the reason Nintendo put GameCube compatibility in the Wii, and MS putting some form of Xbox compatibility in the 360. Their complete change of stance on this makes me wonder if the next generation of systems to come out would be influenced by Sony and put BC in it again.

 

[FoolKiller]

...That's actually pretty substantial. And they're removing 2 USB ports, going to 65nm Cells, removing the card readers, and toning down the power supply as well – it's not like removing BC was the only cost reducing factor.

I agree the total package is a cost savings maneuver, but considering the cost of the systems $27 for BC isn't much, especially when it means going back on seven years worth of PR. But if it is just this model and no other models will be affected then it isn't a big deal.

I don't think it is an issue as long as there is the other option, but I have to question their motives if they cancel the 80gb or remove BC from those as well. It already looks like they are shooting out various models just to try and make a sales increase. If you add completely going back on years of PR to Sony's strategy then it raises a lot of question as to what is going on at Sony.

To me the BC issue is less about whether I think they are creating a disservice to their consumers as it is another thing that makes it look like Sony is just shooting wildly to try and increase sales. They now have two new models, are quiting their two previous models, and they haven't even been going at it a year yet. Their PR is all over the place and at this point the only thing I see going for them is that the average consumer doesn't pay as much attention as we do.

 

[Solid Fro]

...That's actually pretty substantial. And they're removing 2 USB ports, going to 65nm Cells, removing the card readers, and toning down the power supply as well – it's not like removing BC was the only cost reducing factor.

I thought the PS3 was already at 65nm?

 

[DuckRacer]

I thought the PS3 was already at 65nm?

Nope. IBM started producing 65nm Cells earlier this year, but they never migrated to the PS3s until now.

The 40GB PS3 has no vents alongside the USB ports, for proof:

 

[Dead_Poetic]

It looks slimmer too, or is that just me?

 

[Beerz]

I think that's just the angle of the shot that gives that impression.

 

[m7ammed]

so when is DS3 pads are going to be out ?

 

[DuckRacer]

so when is DS3 pads are going to be out ?

November 11th in Japan. Sometime Spring 2008 everywhere else.

 

[LaBounti]

I wonder if they whent 65nm with the RSX too. This not reduces cost but heat too meaning less power usage. They already had a brilliantly designed colling system. Maybe US will get Ice Sliver next year 👍

 

[Robin]

Good that it runs cooler, mine boils even in a crisp uk room (when the heat isnt on) but the consoles heat issues never bothered me much.... I like the lattice look all over the base of the console... looks like its powerful!

IBM's eco contribution to stop all the polluting PS3's causing a global temperature rise....

Robin

 

[ND4SPD]

So when does home come out again? I completely forgot about it then I saw a video a few hours ago.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

So when does home come out again? I completely forgot about it then I saw a video a few hours ago.

• Official GTP PS Home Thread

Posted this aswell in the general discussion thread....

HOME HAS BEEN DELAYED TILL NEXT SPRING

Kaz Hirai's keynote reveals rumble enhanced-controller due in 2007 in Japan, 2008 in NA and UK; PS3's avatar-based network delayed until next spring.

Source - http://www.gamespot.com/news/6178841.html?action=convert&om_clk=latestnews&tag=latestnews;title;0

ARG! not another delay! was really looking foreward to home comming really soon!

Robin

...immeadiately followed by...

PS Home delayed until 2008... Article

As for the Beta trials, don't hold your breath. The 'open' beta that has been widely anticipated looks to be no closer than it was before the launch of arguably the world's least helpful website, www.homebetatrial.com... it has to be said, the official Playstation community forum is no better when it comes to hard information about when (or even if) we can expect an open beta trial.

 

[LaBounti]

Good that it runs cooler, mine boils even in a crisp uk room (when the heat isnt on) but the consoles heat issues never bothered me much....

Its not an issue other than personal because the heat it puts out is a good thing, it has to go somewhere and not fry the hardware. It does get hot but only where the heat is exhausted out and the rest of the system is always room temperature. Its as cold as my room on the top half when running for hours.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

Exactly right. Heat has never been an issue for the performance and reliability of the PS3. The reason for 65nm chips is that they are cheaper to make.

 

[DuckRacer]

Sony unveils yet another SKU in the race against Microsoft to 10 SKUs.

They also unveiled their new marketing campaign for Europe:

"This is Eating"

 

[V1P3R]

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

Now the problem with a Willy Wonka Special Edition Chocolate PS3 is that unlike the normal variety PS3, it is likely going to suffer severe performance and reliability problems due to excessive heat.


Oompa loompa doompety doo
I've got a perfect puzzle for you
Oompa loompa doompety dee
If you are wise you'll listen to me

What do you get when you play video games
Fighting and killing loads of aliens
Why don't you try just going outside
Maybe to the track and go for a ride

There are no stupid AI

Oompa loompa doompety da
If you're not lazy, you will go far
You will live in happiness too
Like the Oompa Loompa Doompety do

 

[Dead_Poetic]

Oh god. Haha.

 

[GT4 genius]

Iam considering buying a PS3 soon but i dont have a HD TV so will this take alot away from the games or what, and do sony supply a cable for normal TV's aswell as the HDMI one. Or how does it work.

Also i only have 1MB download internet speed is this fast enough for online play, and would the demos take days to download?