PS3 General Discussion

[Mr Deap]

That's simply how it was designed. Obviously the designers knew that they would have to load textures and what not. But they set it up like this to take advantage of the PS3's architecture.

All this comparison between PS3 and Xbox360 is a stupid as the comparison between GT4 and Forza(before Forza came out) NOBODY knew exactly what to expect but kept making incredible claims about Forza. And only a few of them ended up holding true.

Remember that before you go bashing a system that's not even on the market yet.

I never played forza.

I'm not really a microsoft fanboy. I'm just talking about fact & all. You guys start the troll way before me & I answer each question. I even forgot we were talking about MGS4.

All I was thinking is about voice for one month would fit on a DVD.

You understand so little.

THe PS3 has a *designated* amount of Video Memory. there is no "texture ram". It has Video Memory, and System Memory. The System memory can also be used as an aperture for the GPU, meaning the GPU has access to the System memory as well.

The 360 just has 512MB of System Memory, the GPU can use as much as it likes, but as seen in a lot of games, without tedious programming, slowdown is a huge problem.

Texture have to be on the main memory before it goes into the memory of the GPU. That's how PC work.

 

[Dave A]

You sound like you are a MS fanboy, you sure you arn't? Is it fact that over 648hrs of average quality voice will fit onto a normal DVD? Is it fact that MGS4 will fit onto a DVD? Is it fact that the voices in MGS won't be 5.1? You don't know the answer to thoes, maybe the first one but certainly not the last two, so how are you talking about fact when your just speculating.

 

[Mr Deap]

You sound like you are a MS fanboy, you sure you arn't? Is it fact that over 648hrs of average quality voice will fit onto a normal DVD? Is it fact that MGS4 will fit onto a DVD? Is it fact that the voices in MGS won't be 5.1? You don't know the answer to thoes, maybe the first one but certainly not the last two, so how are you talking about fact when your just speculating.

If the creator of MGS4 said it won't fit on a DVD, it mean it won't fit on a DVD.

Isn't that obvious?

Though voice can last for a month on a dvd 9.

 

[Jeremy Ricci]

I never played forza.

I'm not really a microsoft fanboy. I'm just talking about fact & all. You guys start the troll way before me & I answer each question. I even forgot we were talking about MGS4.

All I was thinking is about voice for one month would fit on a DVD.



Texture have to be on the main memory before it goes into the memory of the GPU. That's how PC work.

Well, that's certainly not how the PS3 works.

Textures are loaded to the Video Memory, and rendered by the GPU, the SYstem memory handles audio, physics, etc.

You really are making me laugh, comparing next gen consoles to PC's, talking about programming you know nothing about, telling us how much video you make and that your word is fact. Keep going!

If the creator of MGS4 said it won't fit on a DVD, it mean it won't fit on a DVD.

Isn't that obvious?

Though voice can last for a month on a dvd 9.

Not if it's recorded in 5.1

Also, ONE voice...ONE. MGS4? TONS. Not just one person, one voice. Multiple tracks. Multiple sounds. Multiple songs.

Anyway, I'm done, as you're clearly not going to listen to any voice of reason, and I refuse to pollute this thread with your ongoing attempts to prove yourself right in the face of adversity.

 

[Dave A]

Then give some examples of recording compression and quality that would allow 648hrs of voice on a DVD9? Come one, how much memory would 1 hour take at a decent quality level?

And what the hell are you talking about re the creator of MGS4? Are you doing a complete U-turn and saying that he's said that, or what, your a confusing guy to talk to you know.

 

[Mr Deap]

Then give some examples of recording compression and quality that would allow 648hrs of voice on a DVD9? Come one, how much memory would 1 hour take at a decent quality level?

And what the hell are you talking about re the creator of MGS4? Are you doing a complete U-turn and saying that he's said that, or what, your a confusing guy to talk to you know.

Ok, I did the test & I was wrong. a whole month won't fit on a DVD If I do the calculation, it make 23 GB. >_>

Here is my lil test for 1 min that make 648kb.
http://rapidshare.de/files/31094199/yo.wmv.html

The software is only made to decode voice only & not sound effect. You can notice how well the voice alone is recorded.

 

[Tenacious D]

According to my calculations, if you record voices in mono at 16 bit with 4 to 1 compression at 44.1khz, that equates to about 137 hours of audio, or 5.7 days worth on a DVD9, assuming you could use 9gigs for the audio data. If I were a producer, 4:1 compression at 16 bit, 44.1khz would be my quality limit.

Edit: Mr Deap, that audio sample was pretty.... substandard, and I don't mean because of the distorting of the codec. You couldn't sell that quality to a game producer. Maybe Canadian TV, but that says something about their standards.

You'd be dealing with a producer who wanted to have his product match the quality of a high definition movie on a good surround sound system. That wouldn't qualify. The point of audio recording is not to sound like an audio recording. Heck that sounded like an mp3.

Oh, and I have to add that I'm really beginning to hate Rapid Share.

 

[Mr Deap]

According to my calculations, if you record voices in mono at 16 bit with 4 to 1 compression at 44.1khz, that equates to about 137 hours of audio, or 5.7 days worth on a DVD9, assuming you could use 9gigs for the audio data. If I were a producer, 4:1 compression would be my quality limit.

The voice was ok at 22KHZ. It sound okay until sound effect come in. Though you guys all know that there's no games that have 137hours of voice!!

 

[Solid Lifters]

Uh, this is supposed to be a PS3 thread, fellas. Let's try to keep it on topic, please.

 

[Mr Deap]

Uh, this is supposed to be a PS3 thread, fellas. Let's try to keep it on topic, please.

Were're having fun.

 

[Dave A]

It's about the PS3 Solid, well more specifically the games being on Blue Ray format and weather or not the extra space will be used.

Mr Deap, I wouldn't imagine many games have that much voice though maybe the Final Fantasy games might come close now they use voices for the speech as well as text. But you also have to remember theres so much more than just the voice smaples on the disk, theres the music tracsk, there's the game engine itself and all the textures, graphics and interfaces and then the code for any AI the game will use as well. I really can't see a game like MGS4 fitting on a DVD without having things taken away.

 

[Mr Deap]

It's about the PS3 Solid, well more specifically the games being on Blue Ray format and weather or not the extra space will be used.

Mr Deap, I wouldn't imagine many games have that much voice though maybe the Final Fantasy games might come close now they use voices for the speech as well as text. But you also have to remember theres so much more than just the voice smaples on the disk, theres the music tracsk, there's the game engine itself and all the textures, graphics and interfaces and then the code for any AI the game will use as well. I really can't see a game like MGS4 fitting on a DVD without having things taken away.

How about Oblivion? That game have an insane amount of voice recorded.

 

[fideles1986]

all i have to say is that the last 3 pages have been a good read, and all i really learned is that u can't fit a months audio on a DV9 . thanx.👍 lmfao

 

[Dave A]

How about Oblivion? That game have an insane amount of voice recorded.

Oblivion has a bout 50 hours, but I think the quality of the voices has suffered in an attempt to fit it all on, I have the game and the graphics are great, the voice overs arn't so much so. But even still it only has around 50 hours, at the quality Solid mentioned that's almost half a DVD9.

 

[Tenacious D]

Well it is relevant to the subject. The space required to do full code audio (and all PS3 games will be high quality audio, none of Mr Deap's stuff), high quality textures, a playfield populated with highly detailed models and bot actors, high definition effects such as particles, shading and point lighting, realistic physics, object specific high quality sound effects... *gasp* the list is endless.

In order to do all that on a PS3 or 360 is going to require a lot of room. Evidently even with DVD9, space is getting cramped if the last Dead or Alive would barely fit on a DVD9. Let me find a quote or two...

http://www.gamespot.com/xbox360/action/deadoralive4/news.html?sid=6146247

GS: Did you accomplish everything you wanted to with the game?

Tomonobu Itagaki: I won't say that I was able to completely realize everything that I dreamed of at the beginning of 2005. However, I did the best that anyone could within the limits of human understanding, so that will have to be enough.

http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/12155

Concerns Over Xbox 360 DVD-9 Media Capacity
Posted by Tom Masterton on 28 July 2005 - 03:47 - Source: pro-g.co.uk

It seems that the developers of the Xbox 360's games may hit a brickwall when it come to the final size of the games. We have been told by Microsoft that the Xbox 360 will be using standard DVD media, where as the PS3 will be using Blu Ray. The capacity difference is huge, a Blu Ray disk will (in theory) be able to store up to 50GB DL (Not 23Gb and thanks to jef195 for pointing this out), this dwarfs the DVD-9's 8.5GB capacity in a big way.

Team Ninja chief Tomonobu Itagaki has expressed concerns over the lack of storage space on the Xbox 360's DVD media.

Speaking to Japanese magazine, Famitsu, Itagaki has expressed concerns over the limited capacity DVD offers in the era of High Definition. He feels developers will struggle to fit High Definition pre-rendered sequences onto the 9GB format, being particularly problematic for Japanese developers who prefer to use pre-rendered over real time cut scenes.

You can read the full article here.
http://www.pro-g.co.uk/news/nid/1031/

Microsoft wants to use DVD-9 media to try to keep the console and game prices down, and in the long term sell the Xbox 360 cheaper than Sony's PS3. This could be a good tactic, but in a recent article it was said that PS3's hefty price would not put off potential buyers. Only time will tell if gamers will compromise on quality for price.

Heck, the pro-g article is an interesting read:
http://www.pro-g.co.uk/news/nid/1031/

Team Ninja chief concerned by Xbox 360 DVD media capacity
By James Orry - 04/07/2005 - 5:48pm GMT

Team Ninja chief Tomonobu Itagaki has expressed concerns over the lack of storage space on the Xbox 360's DVD media.

Speaking to Japanese magazine, Famitsu, Itagaki has expressed concerns over the limited capacity DVD offers in the era of High Definition. He feels developers will struggle to fit High Definition pre-rendered sequences onto the 9GB format, being particularly problematic for Japanese developers who prefer to use pre-rendered over real time cut scenes.

"The screen resolution for Xbox 360 games will be in high definition, so the pre-rendered movies are going to be pretty large," said Itagaki. "If we encoded the Dead or Alive 4 trailer from E3 in high definition in a quality acceptable to us, it will easily be about 2GB." This would leave around 7BG for game data, but for games relying on pre-rendered scenes to tell and develop the story, multiple DVDs may be required. Itagaki added how shocked he and his team were when they were told the Xbox 360 would use DVDs.

"With DOA4, we'll be using the disc's capacity to its full extent. We started development on DOA4 pretty early, and we didn't know what disc format the Xbox 360 was going to adopt. So when we learned about it, we were really knocked out."

This is a realistic concern to have as HD video requires large amounts of disc space that the DVD format does not have. Sony, on the other hand, are to use the much larger capacity Blu-Ray discs, so PlayStation 3 developers should not face such problems.
Source: Famitsu

 

[Jeremy Ricci]

Just food for thought.

I popped in a movie (Lost in Translation) to see how large the 5.1 audio file was for a 2 hour movie, and it's about 400mb.

So, now we've got MGS4, which will have well over the roughly 8 hours of audio featured in MGS3, and we're looking at 1600MB (roughly 1.6GB). That's just in cutscene audio. And that's assuming it's only 8 hours of audio (it took me roughly 12 hours to finish MGS3 watching all cutscenes). Throw in sound effects and music, etc etc, and you're going even higher in the GB range.

Point is, as more and more happens, space will become limited, and the 360 will stop showing it's potential soon before the PS3.

 

[DuckRacer]

This caught my eye.

"The screen resolution for Xbox 360 games will be in high definition, so the pre-rendered movies are going to be pretty large," said Itagaki. "If we encoded the Dead or Alive 4 trailer from E3 in high definition in a quality acceptable to us, it will easily be about 2GB." This would leave around 7BG for game data, but for games relying on pre-rendered scenes to tell and develop the story, multiple DVDs may be required. Itagaki added how shocked he and his team were when they were told the Xbox 360 would use DVDs.

I remember I bought Star Wars Rebel Assault II for the PS1, and it used two CDs. If, say, Halo 3 needed 23 GBs of disc space, would it be feasible for the 360 to use multiple DVDs?

 

[the Interceptor]

So much for the 360 and its "advantage" of being cheaper, because it has a DVD drive.

Combined with the announcement that there will be no games on HD-DVDs for the add-on drive, some people may be remembered to the good old Amiga times, where Monkey Island II came on 12(!!!) 3.5" discs.

 

[LaBounti]

How about Oblivion? That game have an insane amount of voice recorded.

Here is some morefood for thought. Oblivion use over 2GB for audio the game its self minus the voice is 2.5GB's. GTA San Andreas has horrible audio but lots of it even the voice. that last gen game could have benefited from Blu-ray.

Also back to the whole Video ram thing. They can store texture data right in the 256MB of GDDR ram if they wanted to, in fact they can store anything they want there. Same for the XDR ram, ram that works great for graphics by the way.

 

[Tornado]

I remember I bought Star Wars Rebel Assault II for the PS1, and it used two CDs. If, say, Halo 3 needed 23 GBs of disc space, would it be feasible for the 360 to use multiple DVDs?

Possibly, if they do it right. It limits what can be done with the game (I can think of an absolutely brilliant marketing position for Microsoft to use with the HD-DVD player though) unless the game is broken up into two parts. There have been many a game that have suffered because the story of the game was broken up into multiple discs (Driver 2 comes to mind), and it would have to be executed perfectly.

How about Oblivion? That game have an insane amount of voice recorded.

To this I refer to Snatcher again. It has around 2 hours of audio on a single CD (only counting voices and cutscenes), including the Red Book tracks, all in uncompressed 44.1 khz encoded for RRS, which undoubtably added more as it was the top of the crowd; 1994's equivalent to DTS 5.1. It all told takes up 145.1 MB (and that is in compressed, made for Gens 256 kb/s). So, assuming MGS has only 8 hours of dialogue, the game will take up 580.4 MB at least, not counting the extra space needed for DTS 5.1 if it was encoded into MP3 256k/s. That's being overly optimistic, as well. Now, here is the kicker: Snatcher in it's entirety only takes up 174.3 MB. So, we have to logically assume that the 30 or so MB that Snatcher used for everything else (non-vocal Red Book and all other music and sounds, not to mention gameplay), we are looking at 580.4 Megs being added onto exponentially by non-vocal noises, music (all just by uncompressing the files, not even adding DTS 5.1 support), gameplay coding, physics engines and the graphics (which would alone probably fill most of a DVD-9, let alone a normal DVD); which would add space exponentially on top of that by each resolution increase it took upon itself.

 

[DuckRacer]

(I can think of an absolutely brilliant marketing position for Microsoft to use with the HD-DVD player though)

Could you let us in?

 

[Tornado]

Make one DVD all audio and such (including ambient noises, music and vocals) and the second all of the gameplay and such (including areas, the physics and the rest of the general code, not to mention the sync code). Make the discs run at the same time, one in the 360 (make that the gameplay disc) and one in the (the audio disc) in the HD-DVD addon. Then they could add all of the audio they would want and make the game silly long. It would be a brutally effective marketing move to force players to buy the HD-DVD add-on, and I wouldn't put it past Microsoft to not use it.

 

[DuckRacer]

Make one DVD all audio and such (including ambient noises, music and vocals) and the second all of the gameplay and such (including areas, the physics and the rest of the general code, not to mention the sync code). Make the discs run at the same time, one in the 360 (make that the gameplay disc) and one in the (the audio disc) in the HD-DVD addon. Then they could add all of the audio they would want and make the game silly long. It would be a brutally effective marketing move to force players to buy the HD-DVD add-on, and I wouldn't put it past Microsoft to not use it.

That's a great idea, but wouldn't using a single HD-DVD disc be better?

 

[fideles1986]

^^would both sync correctly?

 

[Dave A]

No, that wouldn't work. Also you'd have the console trying to decode data from two disks instead of one and deconding it in synch esopecially which would harm the consoles performance.

 

[fasj6418]

i work in a radio all day. MP3 files are the smallest, but also, they are not the best. certainly not HD quality.

when we want quality, we use wav. files with 48.0khz. 100 minutes of this would take up about 1.5 gig. just to throw something into the mix.

compressed audio (and video also) means that the game would have the "open" that file each time they are needed.

with BD, they don´t need to compress anything, because of the space. faster acess and better quality. sounds like a no brainer.

GT4 had almost 9 gigs. you can bet your life that no matter what you can compress, GT5 will not fit in a DVD. it might even use a dual layer BD.

and for me, since this is a PS3 thread in a gran turismo fan site, is a big thing. a game like GT5 could never be done in the 360. at least not with the same quality and choices...

 

[speed_demon]

does dual layer just basically double the amount of space on a disk?
because if so then 100GB disk is just crazy thats more than my computer has at the moment(80GB) and could you imagine how many dvd movies or music files you could get onto that

 

[Mr Deap]

i work in a radio all day. MP3 files are the smallest, but also, they are not the best. certainly not HD quality.

when we want quality, we use wav. files with 48.0khz. 100 minutes of this would take up about 1.5 gig. just to throw something into the mix.

compressed audio (and video also) means that the game would have the "open" that file each time they are needed.

with BD, they don´t need to compress anything, because of the space. faster acess and better quality. sounds like a no brainer.

GT4 had almost 9 gigs. you can bet your life that no matter what you can compress, GT5 will not fit in a DVD. it might even use a dual layer BD.

and for me, since this is a PS3 thread in a gran turismo fan site, is a big thing. a game like GT5 could never be done in the 360. at least not with the same quality and choices...

HUGE LIE, HUGE LIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I've seen people ripping that game into a DVD5 & it doesn't even fill the disk.

Edit: Okay, I've done more research. GT4 is bigger than a DVD 5, but it unpack at a size of 5.23 GB. So the justification of not being close to 8GB. Without the video, it easily fit into a DVD5.

 

[LaBounti]

Hmm I guess Resistence will use 7.1 audio, there's your 22GBs.

 

[fasj6418]

HUGE LIE, HUGE LIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I've seen people ripping that game into a DVD5 & it doesn't even fill the disk.

Edit: Okay, I've done more research. GT4 is bigger than a DVD 5, but it unpack at a size of 5.23 GB. So the justification of not being close to 8GB. Without the video, it easily fit into a DVD5.

ok, i´m not gonna argue with major nelson. i should have known better. PD lied, the media lied, experts lied, GT4 is really a small game. even if the game fits in a CD, who in their right mind is opposed to having more space? just doesn´t make sense