Quality over Quantity (GT7)

[Griffith500]

Each car for 5 minutes on each track is only 5000 hours. A full time job for 2.5 years

Is a horrendous misrepresentation of what a large car roster is actually for.

Of course, we'll all "cope" if PD does nothing to the Standards, just the same as we would if GT suddenly ceased to be developed.

 

[FiftyBelowZero]

Duplicate cars need to die. No need to make a second car just because of a paint chip. FT-1 Graphite is a good example, as well as the horde of Miatas over at the Mazda dealership. Yikes.

 

[Harsk100]

When GT7 is under developpement, should PD put PS3 premium cars and Standard cars? Or then should PD recreate the cars from ground up without any reuses?

 

[550]

Don't matter what I want Premium RUFs. I know they're already pretty good but not enought for a game that doenst have Porsches. I want to see their interiors and galery,and accurate physics as well.

But the ideal would be spend time upgrading all standards to premium,or at least the most significant ones.

 

[TayeezSA]

When GT7 is under developpement, should PD put PS3 premium cars and Standard cars? Or then should PD recreate the cars from ground up without any reuses?

This has been covered so many times....

 

[550]

should PD put PS3 premium cars and Standard cars? Or then should PD recreate the cars from ground up without any reuses?

Sure PS3 Premiums are good enought for PS4. If the current Standards could be reworked with the quality of current Premiums,we would have great and sactisfatory graffics at all.

 

[Zuku]

I guess my problem still remains that honestly 1197 cars is too much unless they give back all the tracks even with the career mode GT4 had 700 cars was too high, but at least during that time I did use a lot possible over 200 of them.

Just scale it back and choose 500-600 cars that are worthwhile to drive.

 

[FiftyBelowZero]

I guess my problem still remains that honestly 1197 cars is too much unless they give back all the tracks even with the career mode GT4 had 700 cars was too high, but at least during that time I did use a lot possible over 200 of them.

Just scale it back and choose 500-600 cars that are worthwhile to drive.

Just don't drive the cars that you don't want to drive.

No point in deleting cars that aren't duplicates.

 

[Zuku]

Just don't drive the cars that you don't want to drive.

No point in deleting cars that aren't duplicates.

The just don't drive the car arguments get old for me. That's exactly why I left GT right now I'd take 300 of the best cars and new tracks then trying to fit in all 1197 cars or more.

Or summing it all up GT needs to start anew just like they did with GT3 no one complained about that game I'd just rather they get the base game right.

I've demo Forza 5 or Horizon, and most of the crap I was complaining about is in that game even with a good chunk of things removed.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Just don't drive the cars that you don't want to drive.

No point in deleting cars that aren't duplicates.

Here's a couple of points:

1. Premium cars are made up of individually modeled pieces, standards are one big shell. So creating a full damage model for GT7 if this were to happen, would have to be two tier, one for standards, one for premiums. So keeping all the standards as "cars that aren't duplicates" means it'll take more resources to implement damage, and you'll have two tier damage system.

2. Livery editor. If it has to work with every car, then every single car has to have some sort of programming to enable to the livery editor to work with it I would assume. You can't just make a generic livery and copy and paste it to every car without the game being told how to apply that livery to each car. Doing this for 400 cars will take less time and resources than it will for 1000 cars no? Your odds of getting a livery editor or a more comprehensive livery editor, increase without all the standards that aren't duplicates.

 

[Griffith500]

Here's a couple of points:

1. Premium cars are made up of individually modeled pieces, standards are one big shell. So creating a full damage model for GT7 if this were to happen, would have to be two tier, one for standards, one for premiums. So keeping all the standards as "cars that aren't duplicates" means it'll take more resources to implement damage, and you'll have two tier damage system.

2. Livery editor. If it has to work with every car, then every single car has to have some sort of programming to enable to the livery editor to work with it I would assume. You can't just make a generic livery and copy and paste it to every car without the game being told how to apply that livery to each car. Doing this for 400 cars will take less time and resources than it will for 1000 cars no? Your odds of getting a livery editor or a more comprehensive livery editor, increase without all the standards that aren't duplicates.

The damage model is a non issue if all Standards become semi Premiums. It may be a non issue with tessellated Standard meshes. All that would be affected is visual damage.

Livery editor is not an issue, at all - Standards and Premiums are textured the same way, a way that parallels Forza's livery editor (but not its finished liveries). However, copy pasting is very difficult given PD's texturing scheme. At best, there'll be a lot of manual repositioning of projected shapes and layers when transferring player made liveries between cars.

 

[Johnnypenso]

The damage model is a non issue if all Standards become semi Premiums. It may be a non issue with tessellated Standard meshes. All that would be affected is visual damage.

Livery editor is not an issue, at all - Standards and Premiums are textured the same way, a way that parallels Forza's livery editor (but not its finished liveries). However, copy pasting is very difficult given PD's texturing scheme. At best, there'll be a lot of manual repositioning of projected shapes and layers when transferring player made liveries between cars.

At this point Standard vs. premium damage modeling is an issue because very few standards have become semi-premiums and there is zero indication from PD that this is their goal. Kaz would have to be happy with two cars running into each other, one having body panels flying off in all directions and the other having a few dents and scratches. Oft touted as a perfectionist, I am not sure he could live with this disparity.

So creating a livery editor that works with 400 unique cars is the same amount of work as one that works with 1000 unique cars? There's no special programming needed to get it to work with a Vitz and a Ferrari Enzo?

 

[Griffith500]

At this point Standard vs. premium damage modeling is an issue because very few standards have become semi-premiums and there is zero indication from PD that this is their goal. Kaz would have to be happy with two cars running into each other, one having body panels flying off in all directions and the other having a few dents and scratches. Oft touted as a perfectionist, I am not sure he could live with this disparity.

So creating a livery editor that works with 400 unique cars is the same amount of work as one that works with 1000 unique cars? There's no special programming needed to get it to work with a Vitz and a Ferrari Enzo?

You can't just invent a future and force it upon the rest of us!

The disparity is there, we're all already living with it. It's surprising what you get used to; maybe Kaz has softened, or settled more for pragmatism. Whatever, the disparity already exists, and has done since GT5.

To answer your (second) livery editor question: no.
EDIT: it's a matter of pure geometry.

 

[550]

2. Livery editor. If it has to work with every car, then every single car has to have some sort of programming to enable to the livery editor to work with it I would assume.

So creating a livery editor that works with 400 unique cars is the same amount of work as one that works with 1000 unique cars? There's no special programming needed to get it to work with a Vitz and a Ferrari Enzo?

The "special programming" you mean,is the UV mapping for body textures. They must have this mapping ready for the livery editor mapping. All cars,standards and premiums would need this same work,I mean,their body textures need to be completely re-mapped,one by one.

About the damage system,It's already suposed to be in GT7? I don't know,but I heard that Kaz is "against" destroying cars on his game.

 

[Griffith500]

The "special programming" you mean,is the UV mapping for body textures. They must have this mapping ready for the livery editor mapping. All cars,standards and premiums would need this same work,I mean,their body textures need to be completely re-mapped,one by one.

About the damage system,It's already suposed to be in GT7? I don't know,but I heard that Kaz is "against" destroying cars on his game.

The textures aren't completely full coverage, like most games. They already use a lot of projections and instancing; see here for examples of Standard texturing. Most road cars can be treated as base models already; Standard race cars would be the only exclusions.

That projection method is basically how a livery editor UI would work, and is in fact how Forza's works (superficially); the final result is / was flattened into the base textures at lower resolution, however. That seems unnecessary on PS4 / XBone, depending on the complexity allowed.

What PD would have to control is what parts of the car can be painted on in a livery editor. That can be controlled with material IDs; the Standards have had theirs processed twice for the change in paint shaders in the last two games. They'd have been daft to miss the opportunity to identify (inverse) masking at that time, since a livery editor had been on the cards for some time.

Cars with existing liveries, i.e. race cars, are more of a challenge. I expect the base models are the answer to that challenge (they needn't be separate models if a livery editor is available). Making the base models is easy with new cars, you can structure the work so you pass through that point naturally, but retro fitting is extra work. Semi Premiums seem like good value, as a result.

EDIT: you could just replace the Standard race car base texture with something entirely new, if you've processed the geometry to provide the shading (curvature, panel gaps etc.) in hardware, instead of texels. Panel gaps are a minimum. Interesting.

 

[MustangManiac]

They'd have been daft to miss the opportunity to identify (inverse) masking at that time, since a livery editor had been on the cards for some time.

Really, do you have a source for this? I can't find anything from Kaz or PD saying that a livery editor is or ever was in the works anywhere. Only millions of fans begging for one for years and review sites saying that one should be included, but nothing from kaz or PD. I could be wrong, but I sure can't find anything.

 

[550]

The textures aren't completely full coverage, like most games. They already use a lot of projections and instancing; see here for examples of Standard texturing. Most road cars can be treated as base models already; Standard race cars would be the only exclusions.

That projection method is basically how a livery editor UI would work, and is in fact how Forza's works (superficially); the final result is / was flattened into the base textures at lower resolution, however. That seems unnecessary on PS4 / XBone, depending on the complexity allowed.

What PD would have to control is what parts of the car can be painted on in a livery editor. That can be controlled with material IDs; the Standards have had theirs processed twice for the change in paint shaders in the last two games. They'd have been daft to miss the opportunity to identify (inverse) masking at that time, since a livery editor had been on the cards for some time.

Cars with existing liveries, i.e. race cars, are more of a challenge. I expect the base models are the answer to that challenge (they needn't be separate models if a livery editor is available). Making the base models is easy with new cars, you can structure the work so you pass through that point naturally, but retro fitting is extra work. Semi Premiums seem like good value, as a result.

EDIT: you could just replace the Standard race car base texture with something entirely new, if you've processed the geometry to provide the shading (curvature, panel gaps etc.) in hardware, instead of texels. Panel gaps are a minimum. Interesting.

Makes perfect sense to me.

 

[Griffith500]

Really, do you have a source for this? I can't find anything from Kaz or PD saying that a livery editor is or ever was in the works anywhere. Only millions of fans begging for one for years and review sites saying that one should be included, but nothing from kaz or PD. I could be wrong, but I sure can't find anything.

There was that slide from a presentation a few years back (around GTHD time) that included livery editor as one of the planned features:

It's been posted a million times, but I found it here.

There's also this, which may in fact be referencing the racing numbers and whatever else is left to come in that vein.

 

[MustangManiac]

There was that slide from a presentation a few years back (around GTHD time) that included livery editor as one of the planned features:
There's also this, which may in fact be referencing the racing numbers and whatever else is left to come in that vein.

A few years back...you mean eight years ago and now we have 5P, 5 and 6 released without it! Yes, I'll give you that it was mentioned, but it is also mentioned under online features and we have the number plates (finally, on most cars) and have always been able to color (paint) them. That's not exactly what I would call a promised feature, but if that is what all you guys are holding onto...good luck with that. There is also this straight from Kaz concerning the cancellation of GTHD:

Kazunori Yamauchi stated "Gran Turismo 5 will adopt most of the planned features of Gran Turismo HD", this is confirmed by the two "Gran Turismo x Skyline" trailers based on Gran Turismo 4 replay footages and early Gran Turismo HD Concept artworks or replay footages and including the line "Passage to Gran Turismo 5".

The key word there being "most", but you are correct, it was mentioned. Kind of like someday, in the future, sometime, in an update, over the rainbow, blah-blah-blah, sounds like the usual 🤬 from PD to me.

 

[Griffith500]

A few years back...you mean eight years ago and now we have 5P, 5 and 6 released without it! Yes, I'll give you that it was mentioned, but it is also mentioned under online features and we have the number plates (finally, on most cars) and have always been able to color (paint) them. That's not exactly what I would call a promised feature, but if that is what all you guys are holding onto...good luck with that. There is also this straight from Kaz concerning the cancellation of GTHD:

Kazunori Yamauchi stated "Gran Turismo 5 will adopt most of the planned features of Gran Turismo HD", this is confirmed by the two "Gran Turismo x Skyline" trailers based on Gran Turismo 4 replay footages and early Gran Turismo HD Concept artworks or replay footages and including the line "Passage to Gran Turismo 5".

The key word there being "most", but you are correct, it was mentioned. Kind of like someday, in the future, sometime, in an update, over the rainbow, blah-blah-blah, sounds like the usual 🤬 from PD to me.

The point is that if it is planned, the Standards are no obstacle. Because if it is planned, they would take the opportunities to prepare for it. They have one more opportunity to survey and test materials going to GT7, assuming the Standards persist in their current form.

The PS3 never had the texture memory available to make a decent livery editor given GT's graphical choices, in my opinion. I always expected reduced functionality first: e.g. stripes and other decals, numbers included.

Hope you feel better for that rant, though.

 

[05XR8]

if GT wanted to up the car count, they could have included a few more Tuned cars from GT5P:
Corvette tuned
Swift Tuned
Skyline 370 Tuned
Viper Tuned
Clio V6 Tuned

I chose Quality over Quantity initially. Moving forward, PD won't scale back the car list. All they will do is continue to make each additional car look good. With interior or not.

 

[Prenny]

I Chose Quality over Quantity, PD isn't crazy to put very outdated car models in a PS4 game, I Expect in GT7 there will be only 600 cars, the new cars are premiumized iconic cars and cars that fans are begging to appear like the LaFerrari, Mclaren P1, BMW M5 E39, BMW M3 E30 and ect, and if EA liberates Porsche then Porsches are probably going to appear on GT7.

 

[matherto]

Anyone who chooses quantity over quality isn't sane I don't think.

Cut down the crap. One trim/spec for each model and make them all premium. Having standard PS2 level cars which have been touched up a bit will still look utterly horrific in this day and age versus PS4 racing games and it shouldn't be allowed.

It'll continue to make GT games look half-arsed if they remain in the game and I'm fecking fed up of half arsed GT games.

 

[FiftyBelowZero]

fecking

Ooooohhhh boy.

 

[Harsk100]

Anyone who chooses quantity over quality isn't sane I don't think.

Cut down the crap. One trim/spec for each model and make them all premium. Having standard PS2 level cars which have been touched up a bit will still look utterly horrific in this day and age versus PS4 racing games and it shouldn't be allowed.

It'll continue to make GT games look half-arsed if they remain in the game and I'm fecking fed up of half arsed GT games.

I agree with you. I already told once and I will tell again: The duplicates must be as trim options instead of counting as cars.

And please no swearing by telling bad words. Doing so it's against the AUP.

 

[mister dog]

And please don't swear by telling bad words. Doing so it's against the AUP.

 

[Harsk100]

By the way, I've thinked the following:
I think that PD should have the following:
Country > Manufacturer > Model > Trim

I'll give you two examples:
Ex 1: Japan > Mazda > MX-5 [NA] '89-97 > J-Limited '91
Ex 2: Europe > Ford [EU] > Escort Mk II > Escort RS1800

Well, to be honest in my opinion, the limited editions and race cars must not count twice. The idea is to keep one car per generation by each manufacturer and merge all race cars and all versions as trim options (This could work with 3 door, 4 door, 5 door hatcbacks, coupes, vans and cabriolets).

What do you guys think?

 

[TayeezSA]

Quick question. So apparently the Premium car models from GT6 contain more polygons than Driveclub's and even Forza 5's models.

Since GT's contain more polygons, with all that quality does it mean that PD modelled things like opening doors, bonnets and other things maybe like engine bays? However with the PS3 being too weak they couldn't really show that off?

For example, the damage model on the 08' Impreza Rally contained things opening doors and what not, even the 599 from the GT5P opening had opening doors etc.

 

[Pseudopod]

It doesn't mean that they modelled opening doors, bonnets and engine bays, no. It could mean that, but it could also just mean the exteriors and interiors simply look more detailed.

It also means that the GT5/6 premium models are definitely good enough for a next generation game, so no update of the car models would be needed. Some textures, however, might still be a good idea to update for even some premium models. Sometimes, livery details can look pretty low-res when you're real close to a premium car.

 

[Prenny]

Didn't Gran Turismo series appear in Guiness world records as the racing game with a huge number of cars and oldest car in a racing game?

I Guess that's why PD had to import PS2 cars in GT5 and GT6.