Questioning Religion

[MrktMkr1986]

What gives you any reason to put your faith in one book's good versus any other?

I never said that's personally what I did.

I've been reading through a lot of the posts and it seems as if everyone is trying to find some proof as to the existence of a God or "good spirit" etc. All I was trying say is that for some people, they neither need/want proof -- they simply have faith that there is a God, "good spirit" etc. Hope that clears it up.

 

[Danoff]

All I was trying say is that for some people, they neither need/want proof -- they simply have faith that there is a God, "good spirit" etc. Hope that clears it up.

They have faith in a specific God, or in a specific type of spirit (good, bad or otherwise). If they point to their experiences as indicating that some sort of supreme being exists, they still don't have a reason to have faith in one type of God over any other.

Most people would agree that the definition of faith is belief without proof. But almost nobody would agree that they have faith for no reason at all.

I'm claiming that if you believe in the Christian God, your faith that that particular God exists is founded on no more solid ground than any other religion - and so you have faith for no reason at all.

 

[Max_DC]

Puhh, a long running topic... I understand that discussing is fun, but honestly : those who believe will always believe, those who don't don't and won't . And since it is about "believing" arguments are somewhat wrong here.... but hey, go on if you have fun

 

[SuperCobraJet]

So would my life become crap, or would I start becoming sinister? Or would things just start getting crappy for me and I wouldn't even realize it? This actually intrigues me now.

What do you think? If you, as said yield to their influence, to you believe anything benificial will come of it?

 

[PS]

I don't believe anything will come of anything. I just want, in a hypothetical situation, to know what would happen to my life if I were to summon demons via Cocacola. So, would I become evil, doing ebil things, or would the demons plot against me? Or would they just say "screw this, he didn't use a Ouija board"?

 

[MrktMkr1986]

I don't believe anything will come of anything. I just want, in a hypothetical situation, to know what would happen to my life if I were to summon demons via Cocacola. So, would I become evil, doing ebil things, or would the demons plot against me? Or would they just say "screw this, he didn't use a Ouija board"?

I thought we went over that already? It doesn't matter whether you use a coke can, pepsi can, ouija board, playstation, cardboard box, ac adaptor, string etc. It is the intent of the person to actually seek out evil spirits, according to SCJ.

Just out of curiosity, I'd like to know the answer as well...

 

[PS]

Well howcome coke cans and string and AC Adapters haven't become notoriously evil then? And what part of the coke can? the tab? Just the aluminum alone? When something is compiled of many different thing, who are the demons to decide which part of it they are summoned from?

Anyway, I'm gonna go and summon some demons from some kitty litter. Let's see how they like dem apples.

 

[MrktMkr1986]

Well howcome coke cans and string and AC Adapters haven't become notoriously evil then?

I explained that in an earlier post as well. I can sum it up in one word:

Marketing.

And what part of the coke can? the tab? Just the aluminum alone? When something is compiled of many different thing, who are the demons to decide which part of it they are summoned from?

That you would have to ask, SCJ, as I personally do not believe that evil spirits exist. I believe that it is our indivdual decisions that cause some of the evils that we see in the world.

Anyway, I'm gonna go and summon some demons from some kitty litter. Let's see how they like dem apples.

Have fun! Try not provoke them, though!

 

[PS]

OMG! My coke can is empty now!!! Demons! Evil! My coke can no longer has spirit! It's the work of the devil! I'm SOOO phoning Coca-Cola/Nestlé Canada and telling them about this. ZOMg!1!! xbox just froze!! evil1!

 

[ledhed]

the only evil spirits I recognize are in Jack Daniels.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

No, not really. You skipped right over the "regardless of the intent of the user" part.
Your statements on this issue give rise to the following thoughts:

You believe that it is possible to contact spirits through the use of an Ouija board.
You believe that it is the user, not the board, that is responsible for this.
Yet you believe that a "good" user cannot contact "good" spirits through the use of the board..

Pretty good so far.

One can assume from this that in fact it is neither the user nor the board that can contact spirits - since apparently a bad person can call up bad spirits but a good one cannot call up good spirits - so in fact an Ouija board is useless.

Wrong. The assumption phase is where we're getting off track. It is the user's
actions or freewill seeking that signal the intent or desire to contact a spirit or spirits of divination.
Wrong again. I've said nothing about the people being good or bad. That is strictly your assumptive insertion, and I've already said, there's only one "good spirit" , which I described.
On the useless part I partially agree. Since their is no potential for good, only harm, it is, for all practical purposes, useless.

Then again, you believe that it is possible to contact spirits through the use of an Ouija board.

Only demonic(evil) spirits.

Do you see how circular that is? And yet you've said all of these things - apart from the logical extension of the statements which links the circle...

No, I don't see that. The logical links have to be assumptive.

Then we have the next set of thoughts:
You believe it's only possible to contact evil spirits, since only evil spirits want to be contacted.

Their only intention for contact is to deceive and use the person seeking them.

Good spirits do not wish to return from Heaven.

This is also assumptive, and actually an unrelated area you inserted during the
discussion.

Yet you believe you are in contact with the Holy Spirit, and you believe that the Holy Spirit knocked Mary up (one of the fundamental fulcra of your religion), and that Jesus will come down from Heaven to initiate Judgment Day.

I don't just "believe" I'm in contact with the Holy Sprit, He is within me, or as I said before, he is an additional dimension to my others now. That is a reality, not a belief. Other than your choice of words, yes Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit. If you think about it though, for him to have been GOD in a mans body as he claimed, he had to be the seed of something other than man. Once the period of grace is over, He will return to earth to put down any and all opposition.

The Holy Spirit, part of the Holy Trinity, resides in Heaven with the Father and the Son, according to your religion. Thus, by extension of your statements, none of the three wish to be contacted by humans as they are in Heaven.

No. Thats according to your assumption of what my religion is.(I've already stated I don't really consider it a religion) Also, as I have said, most assuredly, they wish have contact with you, but the established medium by which to do that is the Holy Spirit.

That's not very circular at all. So, as I said, you're either wrong about being able to contact good spirits through para-psychic machinations (in that you actually can), or you're wrong about your entire religion. IF you stand by your statements.

Again, this entire recitation, is your assumptions.

 

[Blake]

If that's just assumptions, could you please explain the "reality", and not just tell us that his assumptions are wrong, tell us why.

Blake

 

[Famine]

Good spirits do not wish to return from Heaven.

This is also assumptive, and actually an unrelated area you inserted during the discussion.

I'm assuming and inserting what now, "I made this statement in post 629" boy?

I don't think demonic spirits are conjured up by the Ouija board. They are present around us in the spiritual realm and within some people, with or without a Ouija board. I've already said its the intent, not the object. Trust me, people in heaven are free from their corrupted earth suit and all the trials and tribulations of this life and do not want to come back.

One can assume from this that in fact it is neither the user nor the board that can contact spirits - since apparently a bad person can call up bad spirits but a good one cannot call up good spirits - so in fact an Ouija board is useless.

Wrong. The assumption phase is where we're getting off track. It is the user's
actions or freewill seeking that signal the intent or desire to contact a spirit or spirits of divination.
Wrong again. I've said nothing about the people being good or bad. That is strictly your assumptive insertion, and I've already said, there's only one "good spirit" , which I described.

I'm going to make another assumption that you simply do not grasp the nature of logical progression. Your statements lend themselves only to the conclusion that a Ouija board has absolutely no purpose and that one cannot conjure up "good" spirits, yet you claim that a "good" spirit is in contact with you.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

I'm assuming and inserting what now, "I made this statement in post 673" boy?

Post 673 was made by PS. ???

Nonetheless, you seem to think that only bad spirits can be conjured up with a Ouija board. Why not good spirits. Surely souls which have gone to heaven are more likely to want to make contact with their relatives, to console them, than spirits which have gone to Hell?.
I would quite like an answer on this one, especially since most folk who use one are trying to contact dead relatives and there's only an aura of "goodness" rather than evil when they're used..

This is the quote I was referring too.(628)
Even though I replied to it, without making a reference at the time, these are your assumptions, which expanded considerably beyond the original issue.

I'm going to make another assumption that you simply do not grasp the nature of logical progression. Your statements lend themselves only to the conclusion that a Ouija board has absolutely no purpose and that one cannot conjure up "good" spirits, yet you claim that a "good" spirit is in contact with you.

When assumptions of this magnitude are habitually employed, its my opinion, you left "logical progression" somewhere back on the Oregon Trail.
No "good" purpose.
I've already explained at least 2 or 3 times about what you keep referring to as "good spirits". I don't see the point in doing it again.

 

[PS]

He made assumptions because nowhere in any of your posts have you made ity cxlear what your thoughts or intentions were. This is offset moreso by the fact that you go on to contradict yourself in the following posts.

 

[Tacet_Blue]

When assumptions of this magnitude are habitually employed, its my opinion, you left "logical progression" somewhere back on the Oregon Trail.

The same could be said about the assumption you make about the voice you hear in your head being that of the "holy spirit"

I'm in contact with the Holy Sprit, He is within me, or as I said before, he is an additional dimension to my others now. That is a reality, not a belief.

err....I'd keep that sort of thing to myself if I were you...

or to put it another way

yeah...like whatever dude...stop hogging the spliff

 

[PS]

I'm in contact with the Holy Sprit, He is within me, or as I said before, he is an additional dimension to my others now. That is a reality, not a belief.

Reality is what you belive to be true. Therefore, reality is a belief. Everything is a belief. Whether it's true or not, noone can attest, because logically speaking, noone can have 100% knowledge of anything. Once again, I may not actually be here (although I believe I am, and am positive that I am), and you may be dreaming this as you read this, but who's to say what's real? You don't know if you're in contact with anything, you could have kidded yourself into believing it. You could have wanted it so bad that you truly believe you're now in contact with him/her/it. You don't know what is and isn't reality, so be carefull how you word things.

 

[MrktMkr1986]

Reality is what you belive to be true. Therefore, reality is a belief. Everything is a belief. Whether it's true or not, noone can attest, because logically speaking, noone can have 100% knowledge of anything. Once again, I may not actually be here (although I believe I am, and am positive that I am), and you may be dreaming this as you read this, but who's to say what's real? You don't know if you're in contact with anything, you could have kidded yourself into believing it. You could have wanted it so bad that you truly believe you're now in contact with him/her/it. You don't know what is and isn't reality, so be carefull how you word things.

Now you've done it! You've got me started!

Reality, in its everyday usage, really means "everything that exists." When two or more people agree on something, a consensus is formed, and this then becomes "truth" as seen by a certain group of people. One group may have a particular set of agreed "truths" and vice versa. So just because you're truth is different than SCJs truth, does not mean that it is not "true".

Bear with me -- not quite finished yet.

A fact is an elemental principle and usually is not subject to interpretation.

"The sun sets in the West" for example is a known fact -- as is the fact that the Sun is at the center of our solar system. However, this was not always an accepted fact because too few people had a consensus about it in order to accept it as fact.

The point I'm trying to make is -- you [Tacet_Blue] shouldn't ridicule SCJ about his relationship with the Holy Spirit, and no Greg, reality is not a belief -- it is a generally accepted consensus that "everything exists".

I've said my piece.

 

[Famine]

I don't think demonic spirits are conjured up by the Ouija board. They are present around us in the spiritual realm and within some people, with or without a Ouija board. I've already said its the intent, not the object. Trust me, people in heaven are free from their corrupted earth suit and all the trials and tribulations of this life and do not want to come back.

The magic of poor resolution CRTs. Post #629.


You state that those in Heaven do not wish to come back. Your religion states that the Holy Spirit is part of the Holy Trinity which rules from Heaven. You state that you are in contact with the Holy Spirit.

At least one of these cannot possibly be true - the others preclude this. And now you're blaming me for the contradictory and convoluted nature of your thought processes.

 

[Tacet_Blue]

The point I'm trying to make is -- you [Tacet_Blue] shouldn't ridicule SCJ about his relationship with the Holy Spirit

Why not? After all many people use the excuse "God told me to do it" to commit all kinds of atrocious acts...I think some of it is deserving of a little bit of ridicule..

Besides, from the tone of SCJ's posts he is having as much with this discussion as the rest of us, so I don't think he would think my ridicule contains any animosity.

 

[MrktMkr1986]

Why not? After all many people use the excuse "God told me to do it" to commit all kinds of atrocious acts...I think some of it is deserving of a little bit of ridicule..

Perhaps...

Besides, from the tone of SCJ's posts he is having as much with this discussion as the rest of us, so I don't think he would think my ridicule contains any animosity.

If that is indeed the case -- I stand corrected. Sorry...

 

[PS]

Now you've done it! You've got me started!

w00t!

Reality, in its everyday usage, really means "everything that exists." When two or more people agree on something, a consensus is formed, and this then becomes "truth" as seen by a certain group of people. One group may have a particular set of agreed "truths" and vice versa. So just because you're truth is different than SCJs truth, does not mean that it is not "true".

I've been taught that Univers(e/al) means everything that exists, and that "reality" is what truly exists.

That above quote kind of puzzles me. What I'm getting from it, is that if more than one person, can agree on something they believe in, it makes it true? Because just doesn't work if it's referring to materialistic obejects/laws/physical properties etc.

Bear with me -- not quite finished yet.

Beared!

A fact is an elemental principle and usually is not subject to interpretation.

Although I think it should be...

"The sun sets in the West" for example is a known fact -- as is the fact that the Sun is at the center of our solar system. However, this was not always an accepted fact because too few people had a consensus about it in order to accept it as fact.

True, but the doesn't really set at all. The Earth rotates around it, and the term has stuck with the appearance of the sun dissapearing into the horizon. And just because only one person realizes something doesn't mean it isn't a fact.

The point I'm trying to make is -- you [Tacet_Blue] shouldn't ridicule SCJ about his relationship with the Holy Spirit, and no Greg, reality is not a belief -- it is a generally accepted consensus that "everything exists".

I differ-

I realise that while reality refers to everything that is real, or true, it can also be misinterpreted if someone is, say, mentally unstable. At that point, they are no longer living in reality, because they don't know what it is. I was simply explaining to him that if were mentally unstable, then he wouldn't even know what is true or what reality is. See me?

[edit]

Aww...4 posts in the time it took me to reply to one...not fair...

 

[SuperCobraJet]

If that's just assumptions, could you please explain the "reality", and not just tell us that his assumptions are wrong, tell us why.
Blake

The "reality" can only be known by way of the"cognizant" principle. Or in other words, "that something can be known" through personal experience, or "distinguishable as reality" by the same means. In this instance it is the only way you will come to know it. And in all reality, that is how the vast majority, if not all of our exsistence is known. (Danoff and I made a few laps around this principle some posts back and I believe he indicated then, that it was the primary indicater of reality). Referring back to the roller coaster and Door comments , that was the principle involved. "It can only be known by you experiencing it for yourself". BTW, the door is to your heart and as I said, he only mentions, two people there. You and Him. GOD says the big question is not "How did man get here"? but rather, "Why, can't he do a better job, primarily on a relationship basis, while he is here". He answers this question as well. "The problem isn't in your head, its in your heart". One more thing. If you'll notice, none of the Ten commandments are, Pie R Squared. They are all relationally based; vertically(GOD) and horizontilly(man).

 

[MrktMkr1986]

w00t!

I know you're happy.

I've been taught that Univers(e/al) means everything that exists, and that "reality" is what truly exists.

That above quote kind of puzzles me. What I'm getting from it, is that if more than one person, can agree on something they believe in, it makes it true?

Correct. It makes it true, but not necessarily fact. Note the difference?

"All facts are true, but not all truths are facts." -- is my philosophy, if that makes any sense.

Because just doesn't work if it's referring to materialistic obejects/laws/physical properties etc.

Perhaps...

Beared!

Excellent.

Although I think it should be...

I totally agree with you. 100%! Question everything! Just understand the difference between truth and fact -- then you'll be fine.

True,

Are you sure it's true?

True, but the doesn't really set at all. The Earth rotates around it, and the term has stuck with the appearance of the sun dissapearing into the horizon.

I'm not sure I understand your point here...

And just because only one person realizes something doesn't mean it isn't a fact.

I know that. That's the point I was trying to make. Take SCJ for example:

He claims to be in contact with the Holy Spirit. Obviously he is the only one that would know this, therefore, we cannot judge whether or not it is fact. There is room for speculation, though, as to whether or not it is true.

I differ-

That's OK. j/k

I realise that while reality refers to everything that is real, or true, it can also be misinterpreted if someone is, say, mentally unstable.

We haven't touched on the schizophrenic topic yet. I am under the assumption that everyone on this thread is sane -- and yes, I can make assumptions if I so choose. That does not make it fact or truth.

At that point, they are no longer living in reality, because they don't know what it is.

That is correct. Schizophrenics do not share a common reality and as a result we can determine that they are .

I was simply explaining to him that if were mentally unstable, then he wouldn't even know what is true or what reality is. See me?

I can't actually see you... j/k

I understand what you are trying to say, but there are legal/clinical standards that determine whether or not a person is insane.

[edit]

Aww...4 posts in the time it took me to reply to one...not fair...

Looks like you're losing your touch. Not quite as fast as you used to be...

 

[PS]

You're right PiR^2= area of a circle.

[edit] omfg too slow again.

I'm not sure I understand your point here...

I meant the sun doesnt actually set at all.

 

[MrktMkr1986]

You're right PiR^2= area of a circle.

What does that have to do with my post?

 

[PS]

What does that have to do with my post?

It doesn't, I was too slow again. i was referring to SCJ's poor analogy math and reality and religion and whatever other nonsense he was trying to incorporate into his explanation.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

Reality is what you belive to be true. Therefore, reality is a belief. Everything is a belief. Whether it's true or not, noone can attest, because logically speaking, noone can have 100% knowledge of anything. Once again, I may not actually be here (although I believe I am, and am positive that I am), and you may be dreaming this as you read this, but who's to say what's real? You don't know if you're in contact with anything, you could have kidded yourself into believing it. You could have wanted it so bad that you truly believe you're now in contact with him/her/it. You don't know what is and isn't reality, so be carefull how you word things.

Uh oh, here we go again.

 

[PS]

Pithy comment #103444727.

Seriously, you have watch what you say. With so much that has already been discussed, you must realise (not "know" ) that you can not truly know anything.

 

[MrktMkr1986]

Uh oh, here we go again.

Unless we finalize this, the topic will keep coming back up. Do you agree/disagree with anything I said in my post?

t doesn't, I was too slow again. i was referring to SCJ's poor analogy math and reality and religion and whatever other nonsense he was trying to incorporate into his explanation.

OK, I got it.

Read my post next!