Racing Modifications in GT5 - Discuss and Review

  • Thread starter JohnBM01
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One thing I didn't like about Forza's paint shop was that if you had a decal that went off the side and onto the bonnet, it cut off so you had to place another decal on the bonnet and spend time matching it up. If they has a mask / unmask option where you could choose to cut it off or not that would be much, much better. Other than that it needed a decal editor/creator. But compared to toher editors in console games Forza's was great, it was the best there is, still is at least until NFS:Carbon which might pip it.
 
Yeah, Need For Speed fans should be happy... eh.

Forza's paint shop does have annoying aspects. Along with getting your vinyls to line up on all sides of your car, the camera system was kind of a mess. When you worked up close to see what you were doing properly, you couldn't see the front and rear of your car from the side! So you'd have to back out, lay paint down, get into another position and do a closeup to see if you were right, and if not, go back to the properside, adjust, back out... it was a mess. Fortunately for 360 owners, Forza 2's paint shop is supposed to be fixed so you could work on any face of the car from any angle, and if you move a feature around, it wouldn't disappear as it crossed over the boundary to another side.

Surely Polyphony is clever enough, and the PS3 is powerful enough to give us a paint shop which will enable us to realize some very clever things and very beautiful liveries. It may not appear in GTHD, but I can't think of anything more telling of a graphic nature than displaying a car on a track which you painted yourself. In Forza, that was more cool than I would have believed. Many days, I ended up spending more time painting cars than I did racing.
 
I think GT5 with 2 (or maybe more) complete racing modifications available for every car would be very good. :drool:

Piece-by-Piece modifications are very nice too but not so important for me.
But PD could add some racing-bodykits with adjustable downforce to the tuner-village.
 
Every car... even the Daimler Motor Carriages? You want to paint one up in Autobacs reddish-orange with the big Autobacs logo? (Just testing you)
 
I'm updating this thread to continue discussion on Racing Modifications. The motor for my revival of this deal is inspired by "Need for Speed: Carbon." Have you played "Need for Speed: Carbon" yet? This game's biggest feature has been about all the different graphics and part enhancements. There's even a pre-defined set of aero parts known as the "Autosculpt" feature. NFS:C featured a great deal of enhancements for a number of cars in the game. I do love some of the vinyl graphics in the game, though I wished there were some better choices. I didn't really feel like I could come up with a style that I could really enjoy. I had the game as a rental, so I couldn't share with you some of my car designs. My "team colors" are two shades of blue with gold accents. It is somewhat of a derivative(?) of Subaru's colors since Colin McRae's dominance with Subaru back in the good old days. Care to show your expertise in making your own paintscheme for cars? Try the Aston Martin DBR9 using pictures from this website:

http://www.slotforum.com/forums/index.php?autocom=custom&page=SlotForum-DBR9-Livery-Competition

This at least a way to practice making your basic designs. I'm not saying to share them on GTPlanet, but just think about what your basic template would be for designing cars would be. I'd say to think of a simplistic design because we're talking about making your own race team. One of the more interesting designs would be the Audi Team Veloqx team that raced Le Mans last year. The Audi R8s featured had silver as the base color and a gradient of purple/violet. Imagine taking that favorite general paintscheme of yours and applying it to a variety of cars. You now have the basis as to what kind of paintscheme you would like to envision.

Now let's talk aero parts. It would be very interesting to come up with some body styles to help build your own car style with the given parts. So think of taking a regular street car and modifying some of the dimensions. For example, imagine an overfender design that makes the car look wider. Think of the 1996 Toyota Supra GT race cars as opposed to the road-going MKIV Supras. Imagine a rear wing setup which gives you the kind of rear aerodynamic touch you'd want. Perhaps making a diffuser setup for the rear bumper kind of like this Clio Renaultsport Concept car: < http://www.carbodydesign.com/concep...cept/2005-08-10-clio-renaultsport-concept.php >. NFS:C has some double-purpose stuff, especially with the Autosculpt feature. Any chance something like this flies for GT5? Do you have some alternative ideas for this deal if you have played NFS: Carbon?
 
racing modifications is one of the things i missed the most when gt3 came out, its nice that they have racing versions of many cars in the game in gt4 but i would like to see the option of taking my car that ive put so much time into and making it a real race car, customization of said racing kit would be nice too but i would be happy enough to see a few different kits for at least most of the cars in the game, and at least have the option to change colors once you buy a car or choose the color of a car you win, my absolute dream would be to have some
different kits to choose from and then the option to change them or even start from scratch and change the look of the aero kit that is part of your racing body
 
Something I've never liked in most games is when you put on a decal or something and when you try to move it to another section of the car, it disappears. I'd like a decal deal in which if I designated a decal to be placed on the hood, that I'd like to place it all the way to the rear or on one of the two rear fenders (granted the car in question has any).

Let's have a racing outlook here. Read this website: < http://auto.howstuffworks.com/champ-car8.htm >. I decided to read up on basically what the sponsorship deal would be like and its correlation to racing in the GT series. This had to do with Champ Car when it used to be known as CART. Here are three paragraphs that explain something I'd like to delve into with Racing Modifications:

from: http://auto.howstuffworks.com/champ-car8.htm

Sponsors are vital to all major forms of automobile racing. The sponsors provide the capital that supports the teams and allows them to race. Without the sponsors there would be no teams, and therefore no racing.

Sponsoring a Champ Car is not an inexpensive proposition. There are many different levels of sponsorship and the teams work in different quality brackets. At the low end, a sponsor can form a syndicate and pay on the order of $250,000 or $500,000 to be one of the sponsors of a multi-sponsor car. At the high end, an exclusive sponsorship can exceed $10 million per year. In return, the sponsor's goal is to get exposure for the company's name. The car, the banners on pit row and other types of signs let millions of TV viewers and fans at the track see the sponsor as a part of Champ Car racing.

Beyond the exposure that motorsports provides for Motorola, they use their program to develop business relations with customers and consumers, and to develop business-to-business opportunities and partnerships. Motorola also uses motorsports to increase brand awareness to an extremely large global audience that has proven to be brand loyal to sponsors supporting motorsports as a whole. Additionally, with CART being a global series, Motorola has the ability to participate with all of their global customers, business units and sectors to develop programs and promotions worldwide.

A topic like Racing Modifications can entail a broad variety of subject areas. It is why I try to be diverse in looking at the many issues regarding modification of race cars. A reason why I think there should be some sort of race team deal is so that you can be able to make your own race cars from commercially-available machines in GT5. Remember my thread on customer race cars ( https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=65022 )? Maybe you could be able to have a mini sponsorship deal so that sponsors can award you and your team money to build new race cars. Think of it as the ability to take a street car and be able to make a racing silhouette (I usually misspell this word) designed to your liking. It should all be in an effort not to make Gran Turismo into a hardcore racing simulator, but more of something to please everyone- casual sim and hardcore sim alike. The middle ground, so to speak.

I talked about the possibility of perhaps coming up with a race car either made from scratch or bought from a dealer. Most of you would admit that this would be a great car for you to take and modify to your heart's delight (unless you're a Chevy guy/girl): < http://www.caranddriver.com/roadtests/11871/2006-ford-mustang-fr500gt.html >. Also imagine you taking a regular car and making it into something like these SCCA race cars: < http://www.racer-net.com/scca.htm >. Not to spoil anything, but look at the Grand Touring 1 page and look for a 1970 Chevrolet Corvette in GT-1 trim. That is a SWEET race car!

Continue looking into Racing Modifications here, GTPlanet.
 
Lately I've been drawing racing versions of cars like the M5, RS6, ER34 Skyline, and Dodge Charger, for a "Mobian Touring Car Championship" project. Certianly, I'd like to work those schemes onto racing-modified versions of the same automobiles in the next GT.
 
The only way I would support the use of nonsense decals on cars or body kit modding in GT5 is if it were there because A) The bodykits were there to actually help aerodynamics like they do in most real world racing circuits, and if B) Sponsors DID sponsor you as done in real world racing.

That being said, I don't want to be racing a modded JGTC look-a-like car against a bunch of Sunday Cup stockers.... So if my car needs to be a JGTC look-a-like, the others better be too.

The modifying in NFS: Carbon is purely visual, nothing more, nothing less. The game is designed to appeal to the average teenager who finds a basic car with some stickers, big wheels, and a shiny paint job "pimp". Not that there is anything wrong with people who like showy cars, but, I just don't want to see it in a "racing simulation" like GT5.

What JohnBM01 posted is more or less what I agree with, a few minor things I don't agree with completely, but, as a whole, it was perfectly said.
 
I've been thinking about this for a few days now, while I got lost in modding and painting up cars in Forza. I can't seem to push myself away and get back to Gran Turismo, I'm totally addicted to creating race cars, and sadly, GT doesn't offer this. Yet. ;)

When I create a race car in Forza, I'm looking at it from the perspective of either a serious SCCA Pro level car, not just a plate of street rice, or a full blown Touring or SuperGT class car. I treat each car as if I were the owner, wanting to make a big splash on The Speed Channel and impress the sponsors, so I try to come up with a professional looking paint scheme, maybe a little tricky but nothing like a Fast n Furious ride. I also use decals from serious manufacturers of high caliber, and a sensible number of them in a tasteful arrangement, not a car plastered bumper to bumper with two of everything. I choose one or two to be major sponsors, and on occasion I'll create a sponsor decal which Forza doesn't offer like Mobil 1. I create a number and make up a badge for the car, and a named driver - usually, not all cars have names on them yet. I have about 10 virtual racers in mind, some father and son teams with liveries which share some similarities.

I've been studying manufacturers and which ones different real life race teams chose to build into their cars. I've researched the racing parts makers like A'PEXi and HKS to see what they offer, so that I know what packages I can build a car with, and how many different companies I have to go to for a complete racing package.

I just finished a Ferrari Enzo a bit ago, with a basic red and blue motif, but it looks pretty snazzy. I chose major components from FK (exhausts, intake, mirrors, seats, suspension), Magnetti Marelli (alternators, electronics, fuel systems, ignition, engine components, sensors) and Prodrive (transmission, differential), so their decals are prominent. I have smaller ones I chose to round out the car from Eurolite (lights), Ferodo (brakes), Fram (ignition, oil systems), Ractive (aerodynamic body panels, struts, suspension coils), and Rays racing wheels - I had trouble getting Fikse to fit anywhere legibly. :P Ferrari stickers are here and there, as well as a Forza badge. I located the number badge on the rear wheel housing panel because visibility is bad everywhere else. It may be out of racing spec but this is for fun anyway. When I come up with a driver and nationality, his name and a national flag will go on. I'm still fussing with some league sticker ideas like IMSA, probably go with that.

I should snap some pics when I get a chance. I have about a dozen or so serious race cars done up with reasonably cool liveries.

So about racing modification and sponsors. I just did a big post about online play vs offline, and how I saw it working out as far as progress and rewards, as well as leagues to join, so some of that is available HERE.

I'm beginning to wonder if there might be two stages to what we can do with our cars in GT5 as far as modding them up. In the serious leagues like Super GT, I'm not sure what sorts of body work can be done on those cars. In the semi-pro world like America's SCCA, I'd imagine you would approach building a race car like you do in Forza, where you select body components from established racing manufacturers that help your car cut through the air while providing downforce to help you grip during turns. Kent in his wisdom mentioned modification packages, which I had been contemplating from all the great tuner cars out, some of which made it into GT4. I bought up the lot of them, but have yet to take many of them for a spin because of my Forza addiction. :P

But with the big name racing leagues like ALMS and Super GT, what exactly are the options a car builder has as far as body work goes? Are there a range of choices available? Or are there league approved kits that you get? If that's the case, in the big league racing mod area, we might find that we get those black cars, which we would then customize internally with whatever components we want. Whatever the deal will be, I don't want to enter a race with the Raybrig 100 NSX, as much as I love that car. I want to create an NSX or whatever racecar from scratch, with my own paint job, my own number and my own name. Along with that, my own sponsors and my own decals when I enter a race. When I have been going through Forza the second time through, I mod and paint up my car - if the game will let me - to create my own race car. I want the same options available in Gran Turismo 5.

As for the leagues and sponsors, this will be cool. I can see Polyphony giving the racing community the opportunity to be like the real racing world, and giving us the tools to create our own racing leagues online, with our own rules and regs, as well as logos and decals to go along with them. And then there's sponsorships. Surely there will be some sort of pecking order, where drivers will have to prove themselves in order to win sponsorships. How that will be done, I don't know. Maybe the data from your success in GT5 will be used, maybe you'll have to take an online race test - license test anyone? ;)

Whatever the deal is, I'm hopeful that Polyphony will give us an awe inspiring gift when Gran Turismo 5 goes online around the planet, and we find the racing world of our dreams. Now I have to take a nap so I can go Christmas shopping in a few hours. :P Maybe tomorrow I'll start on getting pics of some of my cars.
 
I've seen a little bit of Speed Channel this morning. Something I noticed was that I was lucky to see American GT-1. American GT-1 is one of my favorite classes of SCCA competition. There's nothing like it. Most of these cars are essentially your Trans-Am... American GT cars. A lot of them look very cool and can perform like true race cars. Not to mention their engines make sweet music. Almost as sweet as Australian V8 Supercars. I am a fan of the JGTC/Super GT, but don't immediately think of this as "ricing" out cars. Someone mentioned the Mugen/Dome NSX race car. Check out this model car and its pictures: < http://www.idcow.com/aa2176.html > (don't ask me why there is a can of Diet Coke in one of the pictures. Well, maybe to show how high it is compared to the box it comes in). I usually say that I would like to have my proper race cars actually look the part. So it isn't like I'm looking for a tuner-inspired look. I do like most Super GT race cars because they are highly capable. Too bad JGTC race cars haven't had much success at Le Mans. They've been too heavy and not really as capable against pure Le Mans race cars... like this Corvette C6-R: < http://www.idcow.com/aa2164.html > or this Mercedes-Benz CLK-DTM: < http://www.idcow.com/mst2105.html >. Something I really wish people stop assuming is that a street car is "rice" if it has anything resembling something from a specific tuner car.

On the other hand, I've had SOME tuner car interest. It's completely possible to make a competitive street car without having to make it more like an all-show-no-go car. Look at some of the Roush-tuned cars, some of the AMG, SVT, Mopar... that sort of thing. The kinds of cars I grew up with were mostly tuner cars. This is even though the F-Body Camaros got me into cars back around 1998. So I can say that I've had some interest in modifying cars to be performers while not making them look completely flashy. We all can agree that there's really no need for stuff like chrome paint, layers and layers of clear coat and candy paint (unless you do the candy paint right without looking too much like an outlandish tuner), and that sort of thing.

My emphasis all thread has been about modifying cars into racing machines. There has to be some certain limits. For example, I think hatchbacks could mostly be modified as the FOrd Focus WRC or the Lancia Delta HF Integrale Rally Car. FWD and 4WD/AWD sedans are a bit more open. Stuff like a Honda Civic sedan or the upcoming Dodge Avenger could be designed either as touring cars or rally cars. The four-wheel drive sedans (like a specific Audi that fails me right now) could likely be touring cars as well as rally machines. The other possibility is that you could convert some of them to RWD and make yourself a DTM racer. FWD and RWD coupes could have a few more racing purposes. FWD coupes can range between a three-door Ford Puma to the latest Mitsubishi Eclipse. I wouldn't expect to see many outlandish modifications for FWD vehicles. RWD cars have a great deal of opportunities. The instant race car look I've been imagining was a widebody look in which all four fenders are moved outward to have a more aggressive look. I'd later go with a more aggressive (yet not overkill) bonnet/hood for front/RWD vehicles. I'd complete the look with a suitable rear wing. I mean, my preference has been more about GT-style cars. And it's very unlikely you can make your own prototype race car out of a regular street car. Think of this extreme: take a late 1990s Elise to come up with the Lotus Elise GT1 race car. Probably not going to happen.

To end, my dream car with racing treatment would be a Mitsubishi 3000GT MR (the lighter version of the 3000GT lineup). I'd change up the engine so that instead of a twin-turbo V6 (call me crazy), I'd fit it with a twin-turbo V8. I'd go with Michelin or Bridgestone racing tires. I'd choose a suitable GT racing wing at the back and go with better racing-type mufflers at the back. It would also be interesting if I made one to be 4WD while another to be RWD. I would also like to paint it up in two shades of rich blue colors with 24K gold accents.

Keep this thread moving.
 
Here's some more wall of text, probably. ;)

I think John has something that could use some discussion, something that goes hand in hand with race mod and sponsorships. League creation.

I think Gran Turismo needs to grow into the internet world in the same way it's grown in the Playstation world, where the online component is a reflection of what has been building on the console. Someone suggested that a GT Mode or Career Mode should exist online as well as offline, so that the gamer can progress in the online game against human oppinents just like we did on the console previously against bots in GT.

After thinking it over, I think the idea has merit. I'm not sure how it would work, but I would like to take it one step further. In real life racing, there are many MANY racing leagues with their own rules and regulations around the world, their own community, their own sponsors, their own groups of racers and their own leaderboards. I think this universe needs to develop in GT5, both offline and online. People need to get together and be able to create their own racing leagues, managed by some group of authorities so it has a logical structure and relationship to other clubs and groups who want to be associated with these leagues.

People can petition to join or be invited by other members, perhaps meeting in free run servers and showing talent. They would then get league logo badges to put on their cars and hopefully uniforms. And then there's racing in the league. In real life racing, there are rewards for good performance. I said previously somewhere that I'm hopeful that Kaz-sama is thinking about this very thing, and one of the online tools he gives the GT community are not just club builder tools but league creation tools. This includes some sort of reward creator. This could involve trophies and knick knacks, credit purses of course, and custom prize cars. Also sponsorships, which is where things get interesting.

As John posted above, racing leagues are funded with sponsors who put up huge sums of money to fund the league itself, as well as pay out prizes to winning drivers. They also recruit these drivers themselves so their logos can be plastered all over the driver's car, uniforms, pit area, trucks, what have you. In the GT league system, the league bosses will handle these sponsors themselves to dole out to worthy drivers and pay them some money. Now the question is, where will this money come from? Will they have to generate it themselves the hard way, or will Polyphony provide a way to generate all this in the league builder toolkits? Who will have access to these toolkits? Just anyone? Or will you have to buy it at the Sony Store like you would a server fee?

I'm thinking that any kind of serious online community will have to have something like this at some point. I'd be interested as to everyone's thoughts on this matter, as John would say.
 
Just give me GT1-2 style Racing Modification and I'm happy. The thing I want to get from performing the racing mod are full downforce adjustability, the range should be wider than with just a wing installed. And further weight reduction, just like in GT1-2. I don't want the Racing Mod to be purchased piece by piece, cuz going racing mod means you're committed to convert you car to full racing status, it should no longer be able to just street car or amature races. Just make it expensive like in GT1-2, that'll be perfect.
 
Or let me pick my own aero parts, peice by peice, that would be closer to perfection. I don't want my Alfa 157 GTA race car to look just like your Afla 157 GTA race car. I want it to look like my car. Say I want two Audi A4 race cars, one for touring car races and one for rallying, they would need two very different bodykits to get the best out of them. I honestly don't see this facination some people have with limiting the choices and restricting peoples opportunities. If you want to be fully comitted to fully race modding your car each time, then buy everything in one go.
 
I don't know if I've infected the board, but I'm heartened to read people wanting to have "their own cars." It's a guilty pleasure many of us have in collecting race cars in GT or Forza, and being able to not just race these beauties but gawk at them as they spin in our garages. These cars each have a unique identity which sets them apart from the other drivers, primarily a flamboyant or simple paint job with a few distinctive sponsor decals to impart a stylish thumbprint.

Many of us would like to be able to create our own thumbprints from scratch. Maybe we won't be able to create a completely unique Touring, WTCC or DTM car, as I haven't been able to discover the nuts and bolts level of car creation in these leagues. I know that in the lower level leagues like SCCA Pro, you have some leeway to build a car with bodykits provided by racing companies. It seems like Formula 1 cars are virtually identical. Maybe some member in the know could talk a bit about this fascinating aspect of motorsports.

I like both ways of approaching building a serious league qualified race car, piecemeal and all in one racing mod. As Kent pointed out, tuner companies know a lot about putting together packages for maximum performance, and I'd love to see what sort of package cars are available in GT5. But it is cool to explore the world of upgrades by assembling the compoents ourselves, especially with the aerodynamic enhancements of stylish bodykits. I do think though that there should be a finalization process to racing mod, where at some expense, all the components along with a modified race spec engine and chassis come together to give us the final awesome product, a mean race car ready for painting. These are machines which will never drive on civilian roads ever again, so a race mod conversion cost makes perfect sense.
 
Tenacious D
I think John has something that could use some discussion, something that goes hand in hand with race mod and sponsorships. League creation.
Click to expand...

I'd like to see the ability for users to create their own race series - very much like the GTP OLR series are run. Give them the ability to choose what cars can be used, maybe even the ability to supply their own cars - tuned to a certain specification (although fine tuning the settings will still be down to the individual driver) and colour schemes (if a comprehensive paintshop is included in GT5). These race organisers can choose who can or can't join (like keeping it open to GTplanet members only) and when and where the races take place. This way, someone could organise their own version of say the BTCC. They could tune a selection of cars used by the BTCC to a similar spec and even colour schemes, all run on whatever circuits they think are as close to the actual British tracks used.

To be honest, i'd welcome as many different online options as possible. Choosing to ignore certain aspects that are available is prefereable to not having the options you want at all.

For me, as a graphic designer, a comprehensive paintshop will be like 'photomode' has been for many GT4 players - ie something that will keep me interested in GT5 even when i've competed in all the available championships.
 
With the preliminary work Polyphony did on GT HD on the race and club builder tools, I expect some pretty comprehensive things given to us in Gran Turismo 5. I would expect that the things you propose are just the start of what Kaz and the lads have in store for us.

TheCracker
For me, as a graphic designer, a comprehensive paintshop will be like 'photomode' has been for many GT4 players - ie something that will keep me interested in GT5 even when i've competed in all the available championships.
Click to expand...
Dude, I am so with you on that. The paint and mod capabilities in Forza are so cool that I have yet to fire up GT4 in months. I've started a new profile in Forza but have taken a LONG vacation from progressing in the game simply to collect and create race cars. The paint shop is simple but very powerful, and it's just amazing what can be done with it, and the variety of bodykits available for most of the cars allows you to create some very impressive race cars. I'm totally addicted to this thing, and I expect to be spending a LOT of time in Gran Turismo 5's body shops. ;)
 
Let me bring people up to date on why I said a piece-by-piece modification deal. I made the theory that Racing Modifications could return to the GT series by way of a piece-by-piece matter. I thought the inclusion of rear wings was pretty good in completing the race car look. All of my proper racing machines have GT wings (granted they can be equipped with one). It was the thing I really felt was missing with building cars in GT games. Since racing modifications were dropped, I never felt like my car of choice actually is a pure race car, or at least a unique car. I think a piece-by-piece Racing Modification package would be better than GT1 and GT2's respective formulas because you actually get to modify your car to look however you please instead of a pre-determined scheme. I think a piece-by-piece Racing Modification will give you the opportunity to modify as much of the car as possible without having to spend the 80K or 82K just to make the car into a complete race car lookswise. GT4 sort of had a good idea on a piece-by-piece package since you could get yourself a rollcage (though not rendered(?)) to increase the rigidity. I think this is a time in which we would really want to be able to modify street cars to the kinds of race car models we envision. Race cars can range from an extremely functional tuner car (for example, cars like this: < http://seriouswheels.com/cars/top-2005-Chevy-Cobalt-SS-Coupe-Time-Attack-SEMA.htm >) to an FIA-spec race car. So this is all about actually building that dream car and having it look however the hell you want it.

Then too, Racing Modifications don't include engine modifications. I think Racing Modifications should include specially-prepared engines. But if there were races in which certain engines couldn't be allowed, then you would have to go back to your stock engine. Rather than a stock engine with limited performance, imagine building something better. I mentioned my Mitsubishi 3000GT race car vision. You may recall how I thought of taking the twin-turbo V6 and upgrading the engine to a twin-turbo V8 with bigger displacement greater horsepower.

Forza allowed for the chance for you to make your own unique cars from the world's auto makers. I think PD has a chance to be creative to allow for cars to be specially modified. Imagine running the RWD races up against Camaros and 350Z's all or mostly adorned with racing graphics. Since it would be the Beginngers races, graphics would likely be stuff like big decals of the manufacturer they are racing with, maybe the Gran Turismo logo... nothing too fancy. But when you step up to the bigger and better series, you'll meet people who put some serious money into their cars and maybe have a race team deal going. Imagine what the Tuner Car Grand Prix would be like! You'll see serious amounts of paper (slang for money) on their cars both inside and out.

But all in all, I think this is a time in which we should be able to build our own race cars and make them into whatever kinds of beasts we envision them to be. The more options, the better we'll be able to actually make cars an extension of our driving ability and personality. I'm not asking for a Need for Speed: Carbon deal. However, there are some elements of tuner/street racing games that can serve dual purposes for games like this one. With this said, continue the discussion. I'm done.
 
I want this, John, I want this so bad. So bad I'm seriously considering getting a 360 just for Forza 2, just so I can explore this capability in high resolution.

Even if Kaz-sama doesn't implement our ideas of a Career Mode, I want a Career Mode-like structure to Gran Turismo 5. What I mean is, I want to see the race progression tree resemble something like the world of real life racing. I've gone on safaris a few times to see how the various leagues just in America is structured, and I always get lost somewhere. Just exploring the Sports Car Club of America, SCCA, it's a microcosm of the racing world itself! You have the hobbyist levels where you do the autocross cones or take your car and enter it in races. You have stuff that look like low powered version of CART/Champ race cars. You have leagues in SCCA Professional that are like Nascar, Super GT, Rally, LeMans, just about everything there is. Well, digressing again...

Anyway, I want the world of Gran Turismo in GT/Career Mode to be like it is in real life, where the races in the beginner levels like the Sunday Cup are in a league like the low levels in the SCCA. At this point, you'll basically have a lightly modified sports car like a Mustang, Audi TT or 240SX, probably a used car which has been reworked. Any graphic work should be basic, with a simple paint job and a few decals, not five clear coats over a chameleon paint scheme.

At some point, you'll enter into more serious racing. Your car will be a new or newer one and better suited to high performance racing it will be asked to conquer, something like a 350Z, WRX STi, BMW or Corvette. The car might be more deeply modified but still be a civilian road car, or it might be so highly retooled that it's no longer street legal, depending on the level of racing involved. Paint jobs will be more lavish, decals more like what you'd expect to see on a car featured on The Speed Channel. This is a gray area depending on the league level you'll be tackling, and this is where racing mod comes into play.

Well, or it depends. In GT1 and 2, Racing Mod was done on a car after it was tuned up and a three stage weight reduction was applied. In the case of the scenario I'm laying out here, Race Mod will be done to a car to take it past the level of a highly developed tuner to a league qualified race car. As you touched on, everything will be upgraded, including the engine, the stock one replaced with a league spec'd racing engine. Perhaps the entire body will be reworked like the Super GT cars with a wider chassis and wheel base. This would be to follow the old GT race mod method.

But what if you could apply race mod to a car at any time, what would that entail? Maybe when you go to Tuner Village with a stock street vehicle and apply Race Mod with an appropriate fee, you get a tuner car, modified in a package with a paint job and decals. Maybe if you picked out some mod parts here and there, you'd have a custom tuner car you create yourself, with a slightly different livery, one you design yourself.

But if you apply a high level race mod, it would ask you for the league you wanted to enter, and after the appropriate cost was calculated, it produced a race car, with either a template paint job you selected, or a livery you created yourself.

This system would allow you to go at race car creation in any way you wanted to. With no race mod applied, you could piece together a race car with hand picked mod components as extensively as you wanted, just short of a purpose built league approved racing machine. Apply Race Mod at different levels of car modification, and you get a tuner package, a semi-pro race car, or a league level race car. How does this sound?
 
In responce to the recent post on online racing leagues. I think this is an area of GT5 that could have one of the biggest pay offs for everyone if done even partially right. The topic is one that deserves it's own subject. I know there is a lot scattered about in variuos wish list threads. I do think that there should be one master league. Maybe GT World league with world wide leader board and lap record boards. Then several sub leagues of this one. Then as the game progesses and more start racing online. I would expect dozens of smaller leagues to be formed. However I am not sure if I would want say private leagues that just restrict the league to say a small circle of friends. If we get a good paint shop and can make and save decales/logos then league logo's should be easy to share. I do think that groups of individuals should be able to establish and control their own racing league within the boundries of set by the GT World Wide Racing League. Race Directors would be established for each league. They would set up league champions ship and tournament race events. They would control all of the race requirements, time and type of events etc. They would also make their own web pages which would be used for race event check-ins etc. I do think that online game credits would be a good thing. You could use the online credits for GT merchandice, maybe to pay for downloads, entering race events etc. I have been on a online gaming league not associtaed with racing for many years now and it is a great way to enjoy the game that you like with a wide range of players. I would imagine that the bigger leagues would give away real prizes for major race events or championship wins etc. Also there could be membership fees, say basic, platnimum, gold, and diamond. Each one has its only special privalges. However free membership is what most would use especially in beginning.
There is so much that could and should be done. I just hope that GT5 not only brings the online aspect but brings it in ways that could set the bar for all online games and gaming leagues. This is a huge topic to be continued somewhere else. *** YES RACE MODS ARE VERY IMPORTANT ***
 
I just want to extend the concept of a piece-by-piece modification package. I like to think of such a thing as an "evolving" car. Kind of like seeing a car on the road all covered in gray primer. Usually a car with primer all over its body is mostly going to be a car going to be covered in new paint. Another example of a car waiting to be tuned to its full potential (exterior at least) can be thought of like the cars in Rage Racer. Cars look much meaner in addition to being much more capable in the later stages of Rage Racer. So imagine painting up your car all to get a brand new aero package for it. Most illegal street racing games kind of have this design deal in which your car will retain all the designs on it. But when you change the body kits and aero parts in illegal racing games, your car will still have all the designs you plastered on it, only that the car's body looks radically different. So for example, an Infiniti G35 scattered with gtplanet.net logos on the front hood and on both rear fenders will all still be there even if the Infiniti got a body kit that gives the car more ducts than the TVR Sagaris all the way around. I mentioned the Race Shop deal so you can actually build your own pure race car out of one of your street cars.

I thought of another deal. People who played "Sega GT" may know of the deal that you had to acquire a Factory License in order to build cars to whatever specifications you choose. Imagine in GT5 that if you wanted to build your own custom race cars or have specially-configured race cars using factory power, imagine that you had the ability to get special factory-spec racing parts for non-Classic cars. Here is an example. You own a Ferrari F430 in GT5. You've been winning a number of races and have modified your car into your own GT race car. Now imagine getting noticed by Ferrari representatives during certain races you compete in. If they like your performance, they'll offer you the opportunity to pick up fully-customized and specially-prepared racing variants from the company including factory support from the manufacturer. In other words, you would get full factory support from the manufacturer in question on new and fairly new cars to get an advantage against other teams. You could pick up everything, including race-spec engines you can easily swap! How would you feel if something like this was offered in GT5 in terms of Racing Modifications?

To help you understand the question with a better example, think of ALL the Porsche racers in low-level GT classes. Some are good enough that they are factory teams and not privateers. To give you an idea of a racing team that had customer race car support before being a full-fledged factory-backed team is America's The Racer's Group team. Maybe you best remember TRG for upsetting the Daytona Prototypes for the overall win of the Rolex 24 Hours of Daytona in 2003 (some would say a horrible moment or call Daytona Prototypes overrated). Their story from customer to factory can be found with this link: < http://www.theracersgroup.com/about/history.php >.
 
All I can say John is keep 'em coming. You've had a great run of ideas which would fit well with either traditional GT Mode, Career Mode or the dreaded League idea I'm becoming captiavted with.

As for League creation, the only reason money would be involved is because a racing league is something that requires a pretty serious investment of time, effort and resources. And a league is different froma club. It's a major undertaking, and as I define the basic concepts of a league, you'll begin to understand.

A racing league is organized as gree lightning says above, by a board of heavyweight authorities and sponsors. It consists of a group of drivers who compete in a season's worth of racing. They race with one type of car (usually) which meet the league requirements. They follow a racing schedule, going to race events at a chain of racetracks, competing for points. At the end of the season, the points are tallied and a champion is chosen, along with rewards for the others.

In a Gran Turismo League, a league director or board, like the mods here at GT Planet, come up with the rules for the types of cars and what horsepower they can have. If GT5 is so comprehensive that a variety of name brand components are available, they might restrict what components or brands can be used in the league. In Forza, the Civic can be unfairly modified to compete with Ferraris! So, many groups won't let you compete with your compact Hondas. They will define the season involved, what the race rules and track order will be and the schedule of the races. Along with that will be letting everyone know what the rewards will be and penalties for misconduct.

A league is made of drivers, right? If GT5 has online racing with 20 people, then 20 members can join. Maybe if 15 people join, the rest would be handled with bots. You would have to join at the very beginning, because a season could be 20-50 races, so joining five races into it would handicap you pretty badly.

A fee might be charged to join, because as I say, this is a pretty serious job, doing all that work. Along with that, coming up with some kind of reward system is kind of what league competition is all about. A free Whopper from Burger King is one thing, but what about trophies or other goodies? Those aren't free. Suppose the championship prize is a Logitech G25 wheel controller? That sucker is $300 right now! Even a metal car model can be $75 or more, and you'll probably be giving out goodies to at least the top three finishers. Even creating a prize car in the game for you is a time consuming process. It sometimes takes me several hours to create a car in Forza. As you can see, just prizes can run up a tidy bill, not to mention all the work involved, so in a situation like this, I'd be willing to cough up $10 or so to join a serious league.

I'm thinking that this is something which has been done before in the net world, and Gran Turismo is the perfect game on the perfect system to take this idea to the next level.
 
The Forza Motorsport series is the motor for customization among console racers. There's been unlimited opportunities in Forza 1, and there will be many more for Forza 2. I think GT5 needs a quality customization job that will allow for a number of tuning opportunities. The more hardcore elements would be stuff like engine swaps and stuff like that. I think the customization element wasn't really there in the past. You could bump up the HP and give it a rear wing, but not too much in other departments. I think a paint shop feature would work best for all cars. To maybe make things a little tougher, more enhancements would become available with advancement through the game. For example, I don't think one should be able to quickly get full-race car treatment right away (carbon fiber all around, race-spec engine, full multi-point roll cage, etc.). Neither should there be much in the way of extremely fancy paint styles.

I mentioned in the past with pre-made paint schemes. I think there could be a package in which a "budget race car" paint scheme could be in play. Imagine that you can't paint up your car to be a unique racer the way you want it, or you don't have enough money to paint up your car yourself. The idea of a "budget" paint scheme would mean that you could have a ready-made paint style available for your machine. Simple paint schemes can range from circles on the car to put driver numbers on all the way to simple racing stripes with some extra stuff on the sides. I personally don't like flame effects, but those can be negotiated as well. Some of the better paint schemes should come with more experience, much like how you pick up better motorcycle suits in Tourist Trophy. I am not fond of that black and white checkered paint style. However, it should be one of the choices.

Race car customization should really be more like how you have the correlation between street cars and their specialized race cars in GT. Look at the Mazda RX-8 lineup in GT4. You have about three variations of that beautiful Japanese beast... and then this racing variant that you have to unlock. As you can notice, the RX-8 LM Race Car is significantly faster, quicker, lighter, and more. My wildest dream is to tune up almost ANY car into a full-blown GT race car for any specific class. This even means if I wanted to take a 1998 Mitsubishi 3000GT and turn it into a 600hp, twin-turbo V12 with rear-wheel drive and as light as possible (the only weakness for this car). We've played through about four GT games. We have seen a variety of fantasy race car variations. Here are a list of machines we have seen that had LM race car specifications for real and fantasy:

Nissan S13 Silvia (GT1)
Mitsubishi FTO (GT3, the Taevon Trampio FTO in GT2 doesn't count)
Mazda RX-7 A-Spec (GT2)
Mazda RX-7 (GT3 and GT4)
Honda S2000 (GT2 with Spoon variations in GT3 and GT4)
Chevrolet Camaro (GT3 and GT4)
Dodge Concept Car (GT2)
Audi TT (GT2)
Mazda 6 (GT4)
Ford GT (GT4 in two variations)


INTERESTING FACT: As much as the Skyline has been a very popular car, there has NEVER been a fantasy LM race car variation for the Skyline in all the GTs it's been in. That Pace Car doesn't count.

Discussion continues. Let's see what other ideas you'd propose in terms of racing modifications and customization options.
 
Just a quick note : For GT5 I would like to see the racing camaro ( to me known as IROC camaro ) available in at least 20 differnt versions with differnt numbers and a IROC championship series. Also maybe a bare bones IROC car that you can paint yourself and add other finishing touches. Maybe IROC camaro's from othe years also.
 
greenlightning
Just a quick note : For GT5 I would like to see the racing camaro ( to me known as IROC camaro ) available in at least 20 differnt versions with differnt numbers and a IROC championship series. Also maybe a bare bones IROC car that you can paint yourself and add other finishing touches. Maybe IROC camaro's from othe years also.
Click to expand...

That is a cool car however this is turning slightly off topic so I will try and get back to the point.

I would like to see Car upgrades adding plus subtracting weight to and from the car. For example, getting a new rear wing will add weight to the car, a good one shouldn't add much however it will make a difference. A big turbo should definetly make a weight difference. Getting new lightweight wheels should reduce weight. It would need to tell us the weight before and after just as it does with BHP. I am aware it tells you for weight reduction however it should tell you for all upgrades,

I would consider racing modifications an important part of reducing weight but lets not forget the other aspects. The bodykit that should come with the racing modification should also improve downforce, currently if you don't have a rear wing on your average car (lets say 300ZX) you do not have the option of adjusting downforce at all but once you have bought a rear wing for it you can not only adjust the downforce on the back but also on the front?? My knowledge of aerodynamics is great however i think I am right in saying that a rear wing can only really improve the rear downforce and and improvement to the front would be nominal(am I correct in saying this?) If this is the case you would need something like a bodykit to improve downforce on the front so You then have the option of improving the front and the rear(if it comes with a rear wing, which it should) so the racing modifications have real applications, like weight reduction and improved downforce like it should in reality
 
Stevisiov90
would consider racing modifications an important part of reducing weight but lets not forget the other aspects. The bodykit that should come with the racing modification should also improve downforce, currently if you don't have a rear wing on your average car (lets say 300ZX) you do not have the option of adjusting downforce at all but once you have bought a rear wing for it you can not only adjust the downforce on the back but also on the front?? My knowledge of aerodynamics is great however i think I am right in saying that a rear wing can only really improve the rear downforce and and improvement to the front would be nominal(am I correct in saying this?)
Click to expand...
Irl fitting a car with a high downforce rear wing, and doing nothing to the front will result in the front producing less downforce than it did prior to you adding the rear wing. You see the rear wing is causing the back of the car to press down on the road, if you press down on the back only, the front wil raise up. You need to modify the front of the car to counteract this. However in GT4, when you buy a rear wing from the GT Auto, your actually purchasing a rear wing and a splitter for the front. They just haven't moddlled the splitters so you can't see them.
 
live4speed
Irl fitting a car with a high downforce rear wing, and doing nothing to the front will result in the front producing less downforce than it did prior to you adding the rear wing. You see the rear wing is causing the back of the car to press down on the road, if you press down on the back only, the front wil raise up. You need to modify the front of the car to counteract this. However in GT4, when you buy a rear wing from the GT Auto, your actually purchasing a rear wing and a splitter for the front. They just haven't moddlled the splitters so you can't see them.
Click to expand...

Ah that would makes sense, thanks for clearing that up
 
How about a standart procedure instead of a racing modification, available at the car wash place where you can buy rims and wings?

What I mean is you can buy a rear wing, rear diffuser, underbody ducts additional to the diffuser (not visable) and side flaps for every car in the game and they all look the same. You can buy single parts or pay for a full body modification. That would keep complexity low but the result would be amazing. If PD can do it with rear wings they can do it with three additional parts.

PD did the 1st step into the right direction with rear wings.
 

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