Real Guns

[Michael88]

The spray and pray has gotten pretty ridiculous though, I watched a video where 5 or 7 soldiers hid behind a wall returning fire in a very uncontrolled way.

They answered a single round that hit a wall next to them with ~ 300 rounds. The guy with the LMG depleted his ammo in about 15 minutes, the others went almost dry 5 minutes later. They were holding their m4's over the wall without aiming and emptied the mags, sometimes holding the rifle at an angle that they shot into the sky, the LMG guy tried to aim sometimes but each shot kicked off so much dust that he must have had zero idea where his bullets went, he was also making a nice huge dust signature. That guy is lucky to be alive, if the bad guys had a mortar or an RPG he and his comrades would have been blown to bits.

In part 2 of the video when they had to leave the area because they had wasted all their ammo they noticed that they were firing in the wrong direction the whole time. #
I imagine that a single Taliban shot a few rounds at them and then went to cover to eat a sandwich while hes waiting till the US troops run out of ammo.

What is funny is that they had some Afghan soldiers with them as support, when one of those guys was ordered to shoot at a building he rested his rifle on the wall, aimed carefully, stayed calm and made accurate semi auto shots with his AK.

I understand what cover fire is and I have zero combat experience but its not even cover fire if you're shooting into the wrong direction.

 

[a6m5]

Sounds like exactly what they were doing in the picture that brought the conversation on(pics on the mystery rifle).*edit - in response to the .223 supporting sniper.

Guy at work told me that 6.8mm was supposed to replace .223 in the future? I'd imagine that'll pack a little more punch?

Edit: To what Michael was saying, what happened to the good old days of strategies, flanking, etc.? They just want to prevent casualties at all cost?

 

[MarinaDiamandis]

Yup, shooting in the right direction is a crazy idea, but it might just work!

It's interesting that although these soldiers would have been taught how to effectively suppress an enemy (single shots or bursts a few seconds apart) you still see machinegunners burning through entire 200-round belts without releasing the trigger once. A waste of ammo and likely the waste of a barrel too.

a6m5 - Rounds are cheap, lives aren't. At times it is excessive or even wasteful but i'm sure everyone would rather bullets are spent than blood. We never want to go back to the level of casualties seen in line battles or WW1, that's for sure.

6.8mm certainly seems to be an improvement over 5.56mm and I understand that having even the smallest advantage can mean the difference between winning and losing, but for the cost of implementing it I think there are other areas that would give a greater return on investment.

 

[a6m5]

Yup, shooting in the right direction is a crazy idea, but it might just work!

It's interesting that although these soldiers would have been taught how to effectively suppress an enemy (single shots or bursts a few seconds apart) you still see machinegunners burning through entire 200-round belts without releasing the trigger once. A waste of ammo and likely the waste of a barrel too.

Maybe like a (basketball)scorer's mentality: "Next one's going in!"

a6m5 - Rounds are cheap, lives aren't. At times it is excessive or even wasteful but i'm sure everyone would rather bullets are spent than blood.

I understand that. I just don't understand the logic? You know what I mean? Way I see it, in a battle, you make some calculated risks, and you put your enemy in their place.

I guess I just don't understand.

 

[sumbrownkid]

Guy at work told me that 6.8mm was supposed to replace .223 in the future? I'd imagine that'll pack a little more punch?

It's not that simple to change calibers so suddenly. The last time that happened, the rest of the NATO nations weren't too hot about the 5.56. England especially I think.

Beyond procurement of huge quantities of rounds for war, we still have stockpiles of 5.56 rounds for "just in case" scenarios and then we'll have to either retrofit or buy completely new weaponry. And with America being in a penny pincher with military hardware, I don't think any caliber is up for serious consideration. If they do change, then the new round must have distinct advantages that cannot be attained with the current stuff. It can't just be merely "it packs a better punch".

 

[a6m5]

It's not that simple to change calibers so suddenly. The last time that happened, the rest of the NATO nations weren't too hot about the 5.56. England especially I think.

Beyond procurement of huge quantities of rounds for war, we still have stockpiles of 5.56 rounds for "just in case" scenarios and then we'll have to either retrofit or buy completely new weaponry. And with America being in a penny pincher with military hardware, I don't think any caliber is up for serious consideration. If they do change, then the new round must have distinct advantages that cannot be attained with the current stuff. It can't just be merely "it packs a better punch".

That Japanese article touched on Vietnam, too. How they started war with M14s & finished it with the M16s. If the NATO caliber changed overnight, I'd be shocked. I'd think it'll be gradual, over the years.

Besides, Z-Man(Zenith from this thread) would buy most of the Government stockpile 5.56mm.

 

[MarinaDiamandis]

It's not that simple to change calibers so suddenly. The last time that happened, the rest of the NATO nations weren't too hot about the 5.56. England especially I think.

I wonder what the British soldiers currently in Afghanistan would be thinking now if we had carried on using updated/upgraded .308 FALs like so many of the Falklands veterans seem to be so keen on. Maybe they've missed the fact that squads carry the L29A1 7.62mm DMR now?

I know the Norwegians loved their upgraded G3s before they switched to HK416/HK417, but I doubt they'd say that a G3 was a better weapon than a HK417!

 

[sumbrownkid]

I'm surprised the Nords stuck with the G3 for so long. Then again they rarely engage in wars as 'Murica does.

 

[Michael88]

About the 6.8spc caliber change, I don't see the US going away from the 5.56 anytime soon, the next time they change the cartridge its going to be some futuristic high velocity flechette ammunition in a totally new rifle.

IMHO something like the Steyr ACR is the future, there are only a few problems to solve and its good to go:

Lots of plastics, super high velocity flechette with very little drop and velocity loss at big distances, even though the projectle used is tiny in diameter and weight it has lots of sectional density and the flechette tends to bend to a U-shape when it hits oft tissue doing just as much or even more damage than current rifle round designs.
The barrel life is not going to be an issue anymore because its a chrome lined smooth bore and the recoils is almost non-existent, which porobably makes this round a dream come true for a machinegunner.

And if I'm, not mistaken a rifle shooting that round can be recoil operated only because its far easier on the action than a standard rifle round, no need to bleed off gas from the barrel anymore to work the bolt which makes it much simpler in design and thus more accurate, user friendly, reliable, durable and easier to manufacture.

Damn, I sound like a gun commercial now.

 

[MarinaDiamandis]

That is probably the scariest thing i've ever seen. I'd hate to be shot by a broadhead arrow, let alone a flechette travelling that fast!

 

[Michael88]

What makes it so interesting for me is that with so little wind drift, drop and TOF you can pretty much point and click at out to 300-400yds making hits very easy.
As far as I know the max expansion velocity of current gun powders is 6000 ft /sec, I guess you could also make a sniper rifle using such design shooting big flechettes close to 6k fps without burning out barrels. That would be interesting, I wonder what the accuracy would be like.

 

[Zenith]

Here's a great place to read up on terminal ballistics.

http://www.m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?f=91

Human bodies are a very difficult target to design a round to. There are millions of variables when compared to something like a tank. Clothing varies, armor varies, range varies, barriers may be a factor, body sizes greatly vary, shot placement changes everything. A shot that might be utterly ineffective might be perfect for getting the job done in a different scenario.

@6.8SPC
I don't think there's any doubt that 6.8SPC is an all-together superior round to 5.56. MarinaDiamandis and sumbrownkid pointed out that it wouldn't be worth replacing every bolt, barrel, and ammo supply in anyone's armed forces for slightly better ballistics. The biggest shortcoming that the 6.8, 6.5, and .300BLK share is that they were designed to work in AR15's and other .223 platforms. They are limited in their dimensions so their ability to provide any real improvements are also limited.

What's considered by many to be the "ideal" general purpose round is the 7x46mm Murray. It doesn't fit in .223 or .308 magazines, but has the best mix of recoil, range, and terminal ballistics. It still doesn't solve the issue that nobody wants to switch over to a completely different cartridge, especially when we've got our current loads so well sorted.

@Steyr ACR
I have no idea how effective those flechette rounds would be. Incapacitation is caused by severe hemorrhage or damage to the neural system. I don't know the weight of the flechettes and I can't find any data on their terminal ballistics performance. Making pin cushions out of someone is well and dandy, but it doesn't mean much if they're still shooting at you, as Solid Lifters pointed out. As I said, I really don't know. It might be the cat's meow. It's important to note that the Steyr ACR is a 20 year old concept. I believe it has been abandoned.

 

[Michael88]

GAH! I should be happy right now but I'm pissed off.
Just got the scope mount and scope for one of my ordnance rifles, technically its great, the scope and the mount fit perfectly and everything is working just as it should....but oh boy, it looks....abysmal.
I don't know what to think of the rifle now, I feel like the father of an ugly child, I'm supposed to love it but it just doesn't work, no matter how hard I try.

The scope + mount looks like something took metal dump on top of the receiver of my rifle.

Thats not what I expected.

 

[Zenith]

Pics or it's beautiful.

 

[Michael88]

Pics or it's beautiful.

Not mine but its the same mount and the same gun, my scope is a 2-7x33 though. It looks bulky and it doesn't fit the gun at all. (It looks much worse than on the pic)

I'm gonna get a more aesthetically pleasing mount like this. I don't like to drill the receiver but I rather have a beautiful rifle that shoots great than an ugly rifle that shoots great. (Makes a lot of sense, no? )

 

[interpunct]

I'll be shooting one of these this weekend.

And these.

I've never fired a firearm before. I'm really scared and have no idea what to do when firing the big one. I'll start with the handguns. I think the small ones are the Px4 and the other a USP. The big one is the M95. The 50-Cal. My friends tell me that if I'm careful when firing it (I'll be lying down.) I'll be fine but I've seen that thing be fired before and it's freaking scary and loud. xD

I'll try to read up on the earlier posts to see if I can learn more stuff about guns before I actually go fire one.

 

[Omnis]

Wear one of these when you fire the BFG.

 

[interpunct]

Wear one of these when you fire the BFG.
*snip*

That alone looks scary. But I don't want to get anything sprained or get hurt period. I'll ask for one of those (Gloves?) when I got shoot this weekend.👍

 

[MarinaDiamandis]

That alone looks scary. But I don't want to get anything sprained or get hurt period. I'll ask for one of those (Gloves?) when I got shoot this weekend.👍

.50 cals really aren't that bad to fire as most (such as the M95) have a huge muzzle brake to greatly reduce the felt recoil.

It certainly won't be as bad as you think it will be, Barrett put great attention into making their .50s as comfortable as possible for the shooter (when you are a military sniper lying in the same spot for hours on end you don't want a gun that dislocates your shoulder when you eventually do take a shot!).

 

[a6m5]

I remember one of the earliest posts in this thread discussing that. Solid Lifter I think was one of the members.

I wouldn't be intimidated by that, interpunct. Just be aware of the basic safety stuff(don't point at anything you aren't willing to shoot, etc., etc.), and don't hit somebody mile away by accident.

IMHO something like the Steyr ACR is the future, there are only a few problems to solve and its good to go:

OK, WTF is that.

 

[VspecZR1GT2RS89]

I remember one of the earliest posts in this thread discussing that. Solid Lifter I think was one of the members.

I wouldn't be intimidated by that, interpunct. Just be aware of the basic safety stuff(don't point at anything you aren't willing to shoot, etc., etc.), and don't hit somebody mile away by accident.

OK, WTF is that.

That's a Steyr Advanced Combat Rifle or ACR, not the Viper ACR, that's a advanced SRT-10 Viper for the track. But I'm getting of target (pun intended.)

But the ACR fires special rounds called flechlettes (sp?) that are thin, I believe, but are powerful. It's a concept rifle that didn't go into production like the HK G11 and the HK CAWS auto shotgun. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Zenith]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steyr_ACR

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Combat_Rifle



This is from 1990. Some of the running around the soldiers do and the things the narrator says are hilarious. "The long length makes it faster for point shooting!"

Most of these competitions end in failure (OICW). The entrants tend to be engineering wet-dreams instead of feasible combat weapons.

The flechettes do present an interesting opportunity, I wonder how they stack up to modern ammo and if they're still being developed.

interpunct, I'd advise that you see if you can start with a smaller rifle first such as .22 or .223. A lot of people put first time shooters on the biggest caliber they have for their first time. It's supposed to make for some good laughs, but it often alienates the newcomer. You can hurt yourself if you don't exercise proper technique when you fire a big-bore round. Nothing serious, but an achy shoulder isn't going to be fun.

It always pisses me off when I see guys having their 90lb girlfriends shoot a Smith and Wesson .500 Magnum. It's just not pleasant for the shooter and they're less likely to come back for more or see the fun.

This is more of a problem with handguns but still applies to rifles.

 

[interpunct]

Thanks for all the tips guys, I've done a bit of research since my last post and I've been learning the different calibers and weapons outside of the stuff I've learned in CoD and BF, I really didn't want to go there totally clueless so...

I'll ask first for the .22 but I don't think my friends own a handgun with that caliber (I asked him, he said he had to look for one) if not he said that he'll give me other handguns maybe pass me on to some Assault Rifles on semi auto, then burst, etc. but that the last one will definitely be the .50 cal.

 

[Zenith]

Your friend has select-fire weapons?

 

[interpunct]

Your friend has select-fire weapons?

By select fire you mean weapons with the option to select their fire rate? Like semi auto (one bullet per trigger pull, flip the switch, now it's 3 burst per trigger pull.) Then yeah.

He has 3 AR's he told me. I think one of them is a M16A4 and a M4A1 which he told me it's very similar to the M16A4 but the main notable differences they have are like a shorter barrel, its fully auto function instead of 3 burst, but they all come from the AR-15. Thats all I remember, also I remember him telling me he has a bullpup rifle but I can't remember the name at all.

 

[Omnis]

Zenith, the funny part about that video is that the government issue rifles were **** compared to what you could get on the market.

If they want something that'll hit more than half the time under combat duress, they should stop designing rifles and start designing Terminators.

 

[VspecZR1GT2RS89]

Hey Interpunct. Your friend's bullpulp rifle a FAMAS Assualt rifle?

@Z-man: Thanks for more info on the ACR. Even since I messed with that rifle on Syphonfilter, I fell in love with this unique rifle.

Shame that this gun along with the G11 and CAWS shotguns didn't make it out of the Combat Rifle studies.

 

[interpunct]

Hey Interpunct. Your friend's bullpulp rifle a FAMAS Assualt rifle?

I really don't have the slightest idea. I'll ask him later when I can contact him again.

 

[Zenith]

Zenith, the funny part about that video is that the government issue rifles were **** compared to what you could get on the market.

To be fair, everything was **** in the 90's, it's just that the commercial stuff was less ****.

If they want something that'll hit more than half the time under combat duress, they should stop designing rifles and start designing Terminators.

Yeah, I don't think that having less recoil will help a stressed out soldier hit his targets all that much more, especially not with the technique those guys were demonstrating.

By select fire you mean weapons with the option to select their fire rate? Like semi auto (one bullet per trigger pull, flip the switch, now it's 3 burst per trigger pull.) Then yeah.

If that's the case, savor the moment. It's very rare for civilians to have select-fire weapons. Do post pictures of the guns and targets. 👍

 

[interpunct]

To be fair, everything was **** in the 90's, it's just that the commercial stuff was less ****.

Yeah, I don't think that having less recoil will help a stressed out soldier hit his targets all that much more, especially not with the technique those guys were demonstrating.

If that's the case, savor the moment. It's very rare for civilians to have select-fire weapons. Do post pictures of the guns and targets. 👍

Well he was a marine so yeah he gets discounts at the places he buys them apparently for what he told me. xD