Religion is contrived

[Danoff]

Sorry, everyone has a god. Whether they know it or not. I'm not talking diety. Your god could be your own pride. Or possibly the acquision of things. You do serve something. If you think about it long enough, you'll see it. It's none of my business and I don't want to know what it is for you. But if you look at your priorities, find the one at the top, that's your god.

My will is my God. My top priority at any given moment changes as the situation changes. At some times, I will want to spend time with my wife, or play GT4. That doesn't mean that GT4 or my wife is my God. At other times I will want to be productive at work, that does not mean that my work is my diety.

My top priority is to have a long happy productive life. There are lots of nuances to that.

I am my God.

Again, in your response, you totally miss the point of faith. You remind me of the hebrews after they crossed the red see on dry ground. After they got to the other side, they quickly forgot about the mircale and started complaining that they would've been better off in slavery then in the wilderness with no food.

I remind you of the hebrews eh? I prefer slavery? You should read the libertarian thread.

Saying that I miss the point of faith does not answer my question. It gives me no reason to believe that you've even tried to prove to yourself that the God you claim to speak to is the one you think it is.

You claim that because you think this diety responds to the name Jesus and tells you to do good things or "makes" you speak in gibberish that it is in fact Jesus.

Do you believe in the devil? Perhaps the devil is tricking you into listening to him by pretending to be Jesus. All the while you're actually becoming a servant of the devil. Soon what you think is Jesus could call upon you to do something terrible. Perhaps it is the devil you've been praying to. In fact, there may not be a good God at all.

I've seen no reason why you can trust that you're not being fooled.

 

[Famine]

You claim that because you think this diety responds to the name Jesus and tells you to do good things or "makes" you speak in gibberish that it is in fact Jesus.

And the funny thing is that Jesus gave these so called
"Signs of his return", and in Matthew 24 Chapter Verses 4-5 he says
"(4) Don't let anyone fool you. (5) For many will come claiming to be the Messiah, and will lead many astray." 💡

Hmm.

 

[Swift]

My will is my God. My top priority at any given moment changes as the situation changes. At some times, I will want to spend time with my wife, or play GT4. That doesn't mean that GT4 or my wife is my God. At other times I will want to be productive at work, that does not mean that my work is my diety.

My top priority is to have a long happy productive life. There are lots of nuances to that.

I am my God.



I remind you of the hebrews eh? I prefer slavery? You should read the libertarian thread.

Saying that I miss the point of faith does not answer my question. It gives me no reason to believe that you've even tried to prove to yourself that the God you claim to speak to is the one you think it is.

You claim that because you think this diety responds to the name Jesus and tells you to do good things or "makes" you speak in gibberish that it is in fact Jesus.

Do you believe in the devil? Perhaps the devil is tricking you into listening to him by pretending to be Jesus. All the while you're actually becoming a servant of the devil. Soon what you think is Jesus could call upon you to do something terrible. Perhaps it is the devil you've been praying to. In fact, there may not be a good God at all.

I've seen no reason why you can trust that you're not being fooled.

You miss understood what I meant by the example. The hebrews had one of the biggest signs of God in the history of the planet and not long after that they were complaining. So, you've seen God work but are now doubting his existence.

What I find humerous about that is if you are your god though you cannot supply a single need unto yourself. You must go outside yourself for everything. Food, water, shelter, money you name it. You personally cannot supply yourself with these things. You can earn them, but you can't create or fabricate them. That sounds like a rather weak god to me.

BTW, I seriously doubt your top priority changes from time to time. You may occupy yourself with different things that you enjoy, but your priorities reamain the same.

Also, why do I have to prove my faith to myself for you? That's the same as saying, prove it. I can give you all kinds of scripture, but you'll just dismiss that. Which, btw is being closed minded being as you're the person that started this thread.

No, I don't blindly just do things. That's a cult. Not what I'm a part of. When Jesus tells me to do something, it's always to lift up, help or for my own conviction. If it's something evil, malicious or "terrible" It's quite obvious that Jesus didn't tell me to do that. I mean, you've had those thoughts before. Someone cuts you off on teh road and the first thing you want to do is run them over. Then you relax, I hope, and realize it's not worth it.

I've lived for God for 5 years and for Satan for the previous 20. My life has consistantly gotten better. But you dont' want to hear that. You want to hear that I can show you Jesus, he's standing right next to me. Come on, that's simply not faith. Now if you want to debate scripture that's fine. But how can you scientificaly analize something that's not about science?

 

[MrktMkr1986]

I am my God.

Narcissism.

You should read the libertarian thread.

Especially, after I post my next essay.

What I find humerous about that is if you are your god though you cannot supply a single need unto yourself. You must go outside yourself for everything. Food, water, shelter, money you name it. You personally cannot supply yourself with these things. You can earn them, but you can't create or fabricate them. That sounds like a rather weak god to me.

That's a very good point.

 

[Danoff]

Narcissism.

Who should my god be?

That's a very good point.

No it's not. It's a terrible point. It makes no difference that I have to go outside of myself to earn the things I need in life. That doesn't mean I should worship anything - it's moot.

Also, why do I have to prove my faith to myself for you? That's the same as saying, prove it. I can give you all kinds of scripture, but you'll just dismiss that. Which, btw is being closed minded being as you're the person that started this thread.

I don't need to hear scripture, I've heard lots of it. To stay within the spirit of this thread, only quote scripture if you think it proves that religion is not contrived (eg: man wouldn't have thought up this quote). Or if you think that the scripture is a good example of something man would have thought up.

 

[Duke]

You may claim that I have a 'god' if you wish to do so, but that doesn't make it true. Dan has come the closest to it, but he's still trying to play the game by your rules.

I am NOT "my own god". I am MYSELF. I need no divinity.

I cannot create water, it is true. You laugh in derision and claim that I am a weak god. But nobody but you claimed that I needed to be a god, or have a god.

I am a human being. I exist in a world where water exists. I can use that water to farm plants to eat, and to raise animals to eat, for myself and my family. Or, I can use my brain (efficient) or muscles (less efficient) to earn money to buy those things from people who raise crops and livestock.

Show me where divinity is a requirement of this system... without going back to the simple (and circular) insistence that the world needs a Creator to exist.

 

[Danoff]

I am my master. I control my own actions and thoughts. I control my desitny. I need no God, nor have I seen reason to believe in one...

Again, my will is my master.

I am a human being. I exist in a world where water exists. I can use that water to farm plants to eat, and to raise animals to eat, for myself and my family. Or, I can use my brain (efficient) or muscles (less efficient) to earn money to buy those things from people who raise crops and livestock.

👍 Duke.

 

[Swift]

You may claim that I have a 'god' if you wish to do so, but that doesn't make it true. Dan has come the closest to it, but he's still trying to play the game by your rules.

I am NOT "my own god". I am MYSELF. I need no divinity.

I cannot create water, it is true. You laugh in derision and claim that I am a weak god. But nobody but you claimed that I needed to be a god, or have a god.

I am a human being. I exist in a world where water exists. I can use that water to farm plants to eat, and to raise animals to eat, for myself and my family. Or, I can use my brain (efficient) or muscles (less efficient) to earn money to buy those things from people who raise crops and livestock.

Show me where divinity is a requirement of this system... without going back to the simple (and circular) insistence that the world needs a Creator to exist.

I think you missed what I said bud. When I say you have a "god" what I'm saying is that you have something in your life that you worship. That takes precidence over all other things. There IS something like that in your life. Again, it's not my business to know what that something is. But it does exist in your life. Please don't be upset for that is certainly not my goal. And I know you rarely get mad. But it's simply true that you have something in your life that is a "god" to you. You may not worship it in the same manner I worship Jesus, but it is there.

 

[MrktMkr1986]

I am my master. I control my own actions and thoughts. I control my desitny. I need no God, nor have I seen reason to believe in one...

Again, my will is my master.

Typical Libertarian rhetoric.

You control your own destiny?

Have you ever been involved in a car accident? If so, then why did you crash on purpose? After all, you control your own destiny...

Ever caught a cold? Maybe the flu, perhaps? If so, then why? Do you like being sick? After all, you control your own destiny...

 

[Danoff]

Have you ever been involved in a car accident? If so, then why did you crash on purpose? After all, you control your own destiny...

Ever caught a cold? Maybe the flu, perhaps? If so, then why? Do you like being sick? After all, you control your own destiny...

I can't control my environment perfectly, but my actions control my destiny over time.

Don't take it so literally.

 

[PS]

You claim that because you think this diety responds to the name Jesus and tells you to do good things or "makes" you speak in gibberish that it is in fact Jesus.

And the funny thing is that Jesus gave these so called
"Signs of his return", and in Matthew 24 Chapter Verses 4-5 he says
"(4) Don't let anyone fool you. (5) For many will come claiming to be the Messiah, and will lead many astray."

Hmm.

Hmm, indeed.

Funny, that. Also funny how not one person responded to that little provoker of thought.

Hadn't I known better, I would say that Swift is either bipolar, schizophrenic, or has a personality disorder (i.e. two of them).

 

[Swift]

I can't control my environment perfectly, but my actions control my destiny over time.

Don't take it so literally.

Then you are not your own god by your very definition.

 

[MrktMkr1986]

I can't control my environment perfectly, but my actions control my destiny over time.

That makes more sense.

Don't take it so literally.

My mistake, sorry.

Who should my god be?

God is considered the divinity of the three most popular monotheistic religions, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, as well as many other world religions.

If you don't practice any religion, technically you don't have a God.

Hadn't I known better, I would say that Swift is either bipolar, schizophrenic, or has a personality disorder (i.e. two of them).

I wish I could say the same about Liber...

Either way, what's with the personal attacks? One can conclude that your avatar speaks volumes about your personality...

 

[Danoff]

Then you are not your own god by your very definition.

I got confused about your definition of god. You seemed to think that god was whatever my top priority was in life. Since mine is rather complex I listed my will.

But now you're defining god as some sort of mystical powerful being - in which case I have none and believe in none.

So your original assertion is wrong. Not everyone has a God, especially not me.

 

[Swift]

Hey PS. Why the insulting? I'm not mentally challenged. a possible mild case of ADD brought on by to many video games and computer programming but that's about it.

And the funny thing is that Jesus gave these so called
"Signs of his return", and in Matthew 24 Chapter Verses 4-5 he says
"(4) Don't let anyone fool you. (5) For many will come claiming to be the Messiah, and will lead many astray."

Well, the scripture in the King James Version is:

Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Uh...so what's the deal. This chapter is describing the second coming of Christ. What's the issue?

I got confused about your definition of god. You seemed to think that god was whatever my top priority was in life. Since mine is rather complex I listed my will.

But now you're defining god as some sort of mystical powerful being - in which case I have none and believe in none.

So your original assertion is wrong. Not everyone has a God, especially not me.

Ok, so you are totally self sufficient needing no help from anyone, correct?

 

[PS]

I was insinuating he may or may not have dual personalities, suggesting that he may not actually be connecting with a higher being, but actually just hearing voices in his head. Not a personal attack —trust me, I don't want to get banned again.

[edit]

And what's this about my avatar?

My past ones have been...

-Angelina Jolie
-BMW's
-Mazda RX8 taillights
-the symbols from MM's album art
-some MS Paint-made ones
-AWDForums.com advert's
-The Buggati EB110
-and Spawn

 

[Swift]

I was insinuating he may or may not have dual personalities, suggesting that he may not actually be connecting with a higher being, but actually just hearing voices in his head. Not a personal attack —trust me, I don't want to get banned again.

[edit]

And what's this about my avatar?

My past ones have been...

-Angelina Jolie
-BMW's
-Mazda RX8 taillights
-the symbols from MM's album art
-some MS Paint-made ones
-AWDForums.com advert's
-The Buggati EB110
-and Spawn

Your avatar is Marylin Manson I guess. But's also a really nasty looking face. Very grotesque. Obviously I'm not going to ban your or anything. I simply personally think it's very much not needed.

 

[PS]

Your avatar is Marylin Manson I guess. But's also a really nasty looking face. Very grotesque. Obviously I'm not going to ban your or anything. I simply personally think it's very much not needed.

Brian just said it speaks volumes about my character, and I simply repsonded with examples of past avatars to see what relevance this one in particular has. The bannination thing was in reference to me making personal attacks— I wasn't, just using an example from the (now defunct) Questioning Religion thread where noone can truly know anything, and that those voices may be a mental sickness.

 

[MrktMkr1986]

Brian just said it speaks volumes about my character, and I simply repsonded with examples of past avatars to see what relevance this one in particular has.

As a matter of clarification, I did not say your avatar speaks volumes about your character as I've seen some of your past avatars. Remember, I knew you as Public Secrecy. I simply stated, that one (meaning someone who has never seen any of your previous avatars) can assume that your avatar speaks volumes about your character. I said this because it sounded like you were trying to say Anthony was crazy because of his beliefs.

 

[Swift]

I got confused about your definition of god. You seemed to think that god was whatever my top priority was in life. Since mine is rather complex I listed my will.

But now you're defining god as some sort of mystical powerful being - in which case I have none and believe in none.

So your original assertion is wrong. Not everyone has a God, especially not me.

Your god is whatever you bowdown and submit to. So, what is it for you? It just happens that my God has power to supply my needs, get me through the rough times, not to mention heaven and a host of other great things. Your god is your will, now that's some shaky stuff. Considering that your will can change on an hourly basis due to circumstances.

Your assertion that "Anybody could be talking to you" is rather ignorant of what spirituality and Christianity is. It's really not hard at all, if what I'm told to do doesn't line up with the bible, like gossip, backstabbing, fault finding, envy, hate, etc. then it's beyond obvious that God would never tell me those things. Sure, Satan tries to slip some things in there. But as the bible says in 2Cr 2:11, Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.

So, I've been given weapons and power against my enemy.

Also, what was the issue with Matthew 24?

 

[Danoff]

Your assertion that "Anybody could be talking to you" is rather ignorant of what spirituality and Christianity is. It's really not hard at all, if what I'm told to do doesn't line up with the bible, like gossip, backstabbing, fault finding, envy, hate, etc. then it's beyond obvious that God would never tell me those things. Sure, Satan tries to slip some things in there. But as the bible says in 2Cr 2:11, Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.

Sorry. Not nearly an iron clad case here. You could still easily be being deceived.

Your god is whatever you bowdown and submit to.

I submit to nothing. I bow down to nothing. I am commanded by my will alone.

 

[Swift]

Sorry. Not nearly an iron clad case here. You could still easily be being deceived.



I submit to nothing. I bow down to nothing. I am commanded by my will alone.

Nope, you're really not. Do you have a job? Do you have a boss? Do you do something when you want to or do you do it when he/she says do it? We are all in subjection to some or something. If you're in subjection to your own will, then you would do whatever you feel like whenever you feel like. I highly doubt that is the case.

 

[Pako]

*snip*
I submit to nothing. I bow down to nothing. I am commanded by my will alone.

You may be an ambassador to England or France,
You may like to gamble, you might like to dance,
You may be the heavyweight champion of the world,
You may be a socialite with a long string of pearls

But you're gonna have to serve somebody, yes indeed
You're gonna have to serve somebody,
Well, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But you're gonna have to serve somebody.

You might be a rock 'n' roll addict prancing on the stage,
You might have drugs at your command, women in a cage,
You may be a business man or some high degree thief,
They may call you Doctor or they may call you Chief

But you're gonna have to serve somebody, yes indeed
You're gonna have to serve somebody,
Well, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But you're gonna have to serve somebody.

You may be a state trooper, you might be a young Turk,
You may be the head of some big TV network,
You may be rich or poor, you may be blind or lame,
You may be living in another country under another name

But you're gonna have to serve somebody, yes indeed
You're gonna have to serve somebody,
Well, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But you're gonna have to serve somebody.

You may be a construction worker working on a home,
You may be living in a mansion or you might live in a dome,
You might own guns and you might even own tanks,
You might be somebody's landlord, you might even own banks

But you're gonna have to serve somebody, yes indeed
You're gonna have to serve somebody,
Well, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But you're gonna have to serve somebody.

You may be a preacher with your spiritual pride,
You may be a city councilman taking bribes on the side,
You may be workin' in a barbershop, you may know how to cut hair,
You may be somebody's mistress, may be somebody's heir

But you're gonna have to serve somebody, yes indeed
You're gonna have to serve somebody,
Well, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But you're gonna have to serve somebody.

Might like to wear cotton, might like to wear silk,
Might like to drink whiskey, might like to drink milk,
You might like to eat caviar, you might like to eat bread,
You may be sleeping on the floor, sleeping in a king-sized bed

But you're gonna have to serve somebody, yes indeed
You're gonna have to serve somebody,
Well, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But you're gonna have to serve somebody.

You may call me Terry, you may call me Timmy,
You may call me Bobby, you may call me Zimmy,
You may call me R.J., you may call me Ray,
You may call me anything but no matter what you say

You're gonna have to serve somebody, yes indeed
You're gonna have to serve somebody.
Well, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But you're gonna have to serve somebody.

Copyright © 1979 Special Rider Music

 

[Swift]

Thanks Pako. That's exactly the idea I'm trying to convey to danoff.

 

[Famine]

Nope, you're really not. Do you have a job? Do you have a boss? Do you do something when you want to or do you do it when he/she says do it? We are all in subjection to some or something. If you're in subjection to your own will, then you would do whatever you feel like whenever you feel like. I highly doubt that is the case.

I have a job. I have a boss. But it doesn't follow that I'm in subjection to him.

I have ultimate free will. I can do what I want, when I want it. If my boss tells me (or more likely asks me) to do something I can choose whether or not I want to do it - or when to do it should I choose to. I am not under any obligation to do anything he asks/tells me to.

Yes, there are consequences if I choose not to do it - including losing my job. But that choice is mine to make. There are other jobs - it's not like this is my one and only job I'll ever have.

I do things because it suits me to do them. I do them when I do them because it suits me to do them then. I do things for other people because I feel like doing them. I am not in subjection to ANYONE.

 

[Swift]

I have a job. I have a boss. But it doesn't follow that I'm in subjection to him.

I have ultimate free will. I can do what I want, when I want it. If my boss tells me (or more likely asks me) to do something I can choose whether or not I want to do it - or when to do it should I choose to. I am not under any obligation to do anything he asks/tells me to.

Yes, there are consequences if I choose not to do it - including losing my job. But that choice is mine to make. There are other jobs - it's not like this is my one and only job I'll ever have.

I do things because it suits me to do them. I do them when I do them because it suits me to do them then. I do things for other people because I feel like doing them. I am not in subjection to ANYONE.

Really? Do you go to work when you DON'T feel like it? Do you have a job without a boss? If you do, then you run your own business and your in subjection to your customers/clients.

Bottom line, if you were to exercise your ultimate free will, you would'nt be able to function within your society. I know it wasn't your will to study and work as hard as you did for your master's degree, but it was something you felt you needed to do so you did it. You were in subjection to your ambitions and goals.

I'm not saying subjection is a bad thing, infact it's an excellent thing. When we're in subjection to the right things.

 

[Danoff]

Thanks Pako. That's exactly the idea I'm trying to convey to danoff.

It's not working. I won't have to serve jack at any point because God and the devil do not exist. I am not immortal - I have no immotal soul. I will not live forever in bliss or pain - I will die, just as you will. And when I die there will be no judgement, I will pass back into non-existance.

I know you like this idea that people must serve some greater purpose or being, but the fact is we are all animals that need nothing to serve.

 

[Famine]

Really? Do you go to work when you DON'T feel like it? Do you have a job without a boss? If you do, then you run your own business and your in subjection to your customers/clients.

No, I don't go to work when I don't feel like it. I do have a boss - and he has a boss, and he has a boss, and he has a boss, and she has a boss, and he has a boss and she has a boss and that's our Prime Minister.

I choose what I do. I choose to get up in the morning and go to my job. I could easily - and have - choose not to.

Bottom line, if you were to exercise your ultimate free will, you would'nt be able to function within your society.

Why not? Everything I do I do because it suits me to. Luckily I've been brought up well and am well-balanced, so I tend not to go around killing people.

I know it wasn't your will to study and work as hard as you did for your master's degree,

It was entirely my will. The course was an option I chose. The modules on it were modules I chose. I could have chosen to stop going, but I chose to continue, because it suited me to do so.

I'm not saying subjection is a bad thing, infact it's an excellent thing. When we're in subjection to the right things.

Ah, how to tell.

I do not do anything simply because someone tells me to. If I chose to do it, it is my choice to do it, whether or not I've been told - or specifically told not - to do it.


I suspect this is the message danoff is attempting to convey to you.

 

[Swift]

It's not working. I won't have to serve jack at any point because God and the devil do not exist. I am not immortal - I have no immotal soul. I will not live forever in bliss or pain - I will die, just as you will. And when I die there will be no judgement, I will pass back into non-existance.

I know you like this idea that people must serve some greater purpose or being, but the fact is we are all animals that need nothing to serve.

ROFL! wow, and you say that I'm closed minded. Well, I actually haven't even mentioned God in my last few posts.

Famine: You didn't answer my question. Are you or are you not in subjection to your boss at your job?

And when I said you couldn't function in your society, it has nothing to do with being a serial killer. I'm just talking about being able to get food and shelter to leave what you deam a comfortable life. You get up in the morning because it suits you because without going to work there is no money, no money = no lifestyle. Sure, it's your will because you want the lifestyle. Now, if you were to stop working, what would happen to your lifestyle. It would certainly not be what it is now.

You will never always have your own free will. Sure, there are times when you can do whatever you want. But you know that if you want X you need to do Y and there's no getting around it. I know there have been times you went to work or did other things that you didn't feel like doing at the time. But they needed to be done so you did them. You did have a choice, but you realized that choice would not get you what you wanted. So, you chose to do what you didn't feel like doing. That "thing" whatever it was it what held the power in your life at that time.

 

[Danoff]

You didn't answer my question. Are you or are you not in subjection to your boss at your job?

I believe Famine answered that well.

I do not do anything simply because someone tells me to. If I chose to do it, it is my choice to do it, whether or not I've been told - or specifically told not - to do it.

In case you didn't get it, the answer is no.

ROFL! wow, and you say that I'm closed minded. Well, I actually haven't even mentioned God in my last few posts.

OH I GET IT!

IT'S CLOSED MINDED OF ME TO SAY GOD DOESN'T EXIST, BUT IT'S NOT CLOSED MINDED OF YOU TO SAY THAT "YOU WILL SERVE"! I SEE NOW, YOU'RE A HYPOCRITE!