Russian Invasion of Ukraine

[TenEightyOne]

Well, the method is pretty much the same as what Hitler did with Austria. Obviously, the scale is smaller, but the scheme is the same so far.

Good thinking, I always forgot that Anschluss was partly armed. I seem to remember that the putsch government first tried just support Austrian nationalist movements with arms, then just gave up and invaded/annexed?

EDIT: @Dotini ... we cool bro Putin is least authoritarian in 300 years? These things are relative but... it doesn't make him not authoritarian by any means

 

[zzz_pt]

Well, the method is pretty much the same as what Hitler did with Austria. Obviously, the scale is smaller, but the scheme is the same so far. Now, just posting a pic isn't necessarily equal to showcasing a balanced opinion, but the similarities are there. Granted, all authoritarian and dictatorship-type regimes have many things in common, but Hitler is just a very vivid analogy

Ehh, these dudes we got now aren't even actual politicians, they're just playing roles.
Oh, and my name is Alex.

I'm sorry Alex! :S My mind read SM instead of SMfan

@TenEightyOne The movement of Putin in Crimeia is similar to the movment Hitler did in Czechoslovakia bach in 1938 and that led to a pretty huge catastrophy.

I posted the picture with a link to contextualize it. Of course Putin is not the same as Hitler.

ps: Not hungarian. Czech

 

[TenEightyOne]

I'll get you all back on-topic...Québec...Canada...sovereignty ...Québecois...an interesting hour...referendum...Sovereign Québeq...French...passport...Québec...

Ouch, was that the topic?

I think the thread already reached the point where everyone wanted to see a diplomatic solution and where everyone also understood that the people of Ukraine are not all the same and some want different things... but that the solution should be diplomatic.

Russian armed activity has overtaken that (and any parallels to the Canadian situation), that's really what we're discussing. I'll promise not to mention Piers Morgan again if you promise not to mention Canada.

@zzz_pt I stand corrected, and noted... as I posted I'd forgotten the inveiglings of the Anschluss

 

[Igano]

I don't think much is going to happen and Russia will be able to do what they want. The reason why I think that is the Turkish invasion of Cyprus in 1974 which is quite a similar situation. Cyprus after 40 years is still divided.

 

[SMfan]

With the exception of Gorbachev, Putin is the least authoritarian Russian leader in 300 years. He provides bases so that the US can provide logistics to Afghanistan. He is a rational actor.

Well, obviously, Soviet leaders were mighty authoritarian, just cause the system was built that way. Also, it's kinda hard to compare emperors to presidents, so I wouldn't go as far as 300 years.
And finally, you probably forgot Eltsin.

In a tense situation, it is wrong to lose objectivity and self-control, and start demonizing people as if in a rush to war. Stay cool, brother Alex.

Man, I'm not running around screaming at people, am I?
There's a difference between demonizing and finding common patterns, I was was certainly going for the latter. If two people have something in common, it doesn't make them completely the same.

 

[Dotini]

Ouch, was that the topic?

I think the thread already reached the point where everyone wanted to see a diplomatic solution and where everyone also understood that the people of Ukraine are not all the same and some want different things... but that the solution should be diplomatic.

Russian armed activity has overtaken that (and any parallels to the Canadian situation), that's really what we're discussing.

I respectfully disagree that a diplomatic solution has been ruled out. Remember, not a shot has been fired.

A real good question is what is going on in Kharkhiv and Donetsk?

 

[TenEightyOne]

I respectfully disagree that a diplomatic solution has been ruled out. Remember, not a shot has been fired.

A real good question is what is going on in Kharkhiv and Donetsk?

I too would disagree that a diplomatic solution has been ruled out, but clearly there are military matters afoot too. I remain completely hopeful in diplomacy.

 

[zzz_pt]

If Russia brokes its own diplomacy agreements it's hard to see a diplomatic solution in the short term... But I too am hopefull that that will be the way out of this situation.

 

[Dotini]

I too would disagree that a diplomatic solution has been ruled out, but clearly there are military matters afoot too. I remain completely hopeful in diplomacy.

I repeat, what is happening in Kharkiv and Donetsk?? These are key. If you think people are excited now, just wait til the tanks roll through and beyond these cities. These must be Putin's strategic objective in this game, his checkmate. He will get them by diplomacy, or he will get them by force. But he will get them, now or never.

 

[SMfan]

A real good question is what is going on in Kharkhiv and Donetsk?

https://twitter.com/novostidnua/status/440159859191721984/photo/1
Here's some Donetsk for ya.
A picture from a friendly football match between fans of Shakhtar and Dynamo Kiev. The game symbolizes Ukrainian unity, and if you know the rivalry these dudes have, you'll certainly understand the importance.

 

[TenEightyOne]

I repeat, what is happening in Kharkiv and Donetsk?? These are key. If you think people are excited now, just wait til the tanks roll through and beyond these cities. These must be Putin's strategic objective in this game. He will get them by diplomacy, or he will get them by force. But he will get them, now or never.

The military flexing is hopefully Russia simply trying to hold as strong a position as possible when it comes to negotiation, so they're going to try to force Crimea to ask for as much as possible.

In my view if the Ukrainian people (all of them, regardless of area or heritage) wish to split then they should be allowed to do so, but the world should be making sure that they don't have a puppet government forced on them by Russia. They don't win any freedoms or respect that way, and that would be a real shame.

 

[Dotini]

The military flexing is hopefully Russia simply trying to hold as strong a position as possible when it comes to negotiation, so they're going to try to force Crimea to ask for as much as possible.

In my view if the Ukrainian people (all of them, regardless of area or heritage) wish to split then they should be allowed to do so, but the world should be making sure that they don't have a puppet government forced on them by Russia. They don't win any freedoms or respect that way, and that would be a real shame.

The saddest words ever penned are these: "it might have been".
The happiest words are these: "I told you so"

We'll see what happens!!

 

[Rage Racer]

Renamed the thread becase the Maidan is no more the main scene.

A reminder: there's no war yet. But there are two facts that make me worry:

1. The official objective of the intervention is "protecting Russian citizens and the Russian-speaking population". But in reality, nothing threatens them. People from Ukraine who I have spoken to (including one from Ternopil - a city in the Western Ukraine with 97% Ukrainian-speaking population) tell that there's no rusophobia or racism here and nobody attacks people for speaking Russian (like Russian media says), and nothing changed with this after the revolution.
Russian TV lies. They show cars on a Ukrainian-Polish (!) checkpoint and say "Russian-speaking Ukrainians are running away to Russia!"
So, the real reason is probably different from the official. I assume that is... a counter-revolution operation to get Yanukovich back in power?

2. Russian forces are not yet officially there! LOL, but our media calls those "gentlemen" with Russian equipment an "armed militia of Crimea". Uh huh, and they are armed with guns like AS Val that are used by the Russian special forces (Spetsnaz) only. And were driving GAZ Tigr cars with Russian plates. The invasion is just "being planned".

Also, no shots between the Russian and Ukrainian army forces (and I hope they won't be), but there are some tense moments. The Russian soldiers block the Ukrainian military units from activity. (Note the difference in equipment and guns.)

In my view if the Ukrainian people (all of them, regardless of area or heritage) wish to split then they should be allowed to do so, but the world should be making sure that they don't have a puppet government forced on them by Russia.

The Ukrainian nationalists DO NOT want the country to tear into pieces, but Russian media keeps talking about splitting the West and the East. The reality is not that simple.

 

[TenEightyOne]

The Ukrainian nationalists DO NOT want the country to tear into pieces, but Russian media keeps talking about splitting the West and the East. The reality is not that simple.

I completely agree, I was just saying that if that was what Ukraine wanted and that the will was established by democratic means then puppetry should be avoided. Many people want many things so the next few days, weeks, months and years of Ukrainian diplomacy and democracy will be vital to the country's future in shaping herself as a united Ukraine

If shots are exchanged then all bets will be off, the short-term outcome will be starkly black and white, I think.

 

[zzz_pt]

That first image makes me sick... :S

"We have more and better guns, so we can do whatever we want".

I'm with the ukranian people / soldiers.

 

[Dotini]

There's a report Tymoshenko will meet in Moscow with Putin tomorrow. That's diplomacy, and hope for a better tomorrow.

Today, however, we have Phoenix! Sometimes quality entertainment is better fare than the ugly, brutal truth.

 

[Rage Racer]

A real good question is what is going on in Kharkhiv and Donetsk?

Protests. "No to war!"

The Russian TV doesn't show it, but if it did, this would be commented like "they were paid by the West!11".

I'm with the ukranian people / soldiers.

So I am too, but I would never shoot a Russian soldier first if I was a Ukrainian. And I would not shoot a Ukrainian if I was an RF soldier, even if I was ordered to. We are brother nations. But ****ing politicians want to collide us.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

Ukraine doesn't have a sovereign in that sense, and nor is it any stranger to democracy. That's why some of the people say different things from their neighbours.

Since the parliament voted the President from power the whole world (Ukraine included) has known that they need to hold proper elections quickly to ratify their government. That's old news.

The worry at the moment is the physical military interventions that seem to have taken place so far and their potential for escalation. We could thump on about any French backwater's sovereignty debate and it would be a day-late and a Delors short. You can have that joke, if you like. And it was a joke - Canada is in very complex political position but only in a diplomatic sense, there are currently no hostiles ready to storm them.

This is why I'm saying that I wish everyone could follow the same routine in terms of civil discourse.


I certainly hope that everything turns out well in Ukraine, as with most, but I wouldn't mind seeing Russian acceptance polls, pre-Ukraine and post-Ukraine, of Putin. I really want to know what the Russian population thinks of this whole debacle. To me, the Russian population really doesn't care as much as Vladi boy does.


Edit: @Rage Racer seconds my hypothesis, it seems.

 

[Dennisch]

You would think that the Russian government would realize that censorship needs to cover internet as well to make it work...

I see a time coming when the Russians themselves start protesting against Putin's silly ways of ruling the country.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

That's diplomacy, and hope for a better tomorrow.

Perhaps the first thing the Ukrainians could do is repeal the law that declared Russian is no longer the official second language of the government. Given the percentage of the population who are ethnic Russians, that law was a big mistake. It appears to have been a move designed to demonstrate the government's move towards Europe, but all it did was ostracise that part of the population - schools where Russian was the dominant language can no longer teach in Russian, while court proceedings that were carried out in Russian can no longer do so, either; in other words, Russian can no longer be used in any official capacity.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

Perhaps the first thing the Ukrainians could do is repeal the law that declared Russian is no longer the official second language of the government. Given the percentage of the population who are ethnic Russians, that law was a big mistake. It appears to have been a move designed to demonstrate the government's move towards Europe, but all it did was ostracise that part of the population - schools where Russian was the dominant language can no longer teach in Russian, while court proceedings that were carried out in Russian can no longer do so, either; in other words, Russian can no longer be used in any official capacity.

Source?

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Source?

http://america.aljazeera.com/articl...tizensstandforselfdefenseandmotherrussia.html

It's not so simple, is it?

 

[SMfan]

I certainly hope that everything turns out well in Ukraine, as with most, but I wouldn't mind seeing Russian acceptance polls, pre-Ukraine and post-Ukraine, of Putin. I

Most people only have one source of information - state owned media. All of these people are sure that Putin is saving Ukrainians from "faschists in Kiev".
Propaganda does that to ya.

I see a time coming when the Russians themselves start protesting against Putin's silly ways of ruling the country.

They were. And they are. But every single meeting results in a bunch of arrests and people being imprisoned.
361 people were arrested today - and that was a reeeeeeeally small protest (they have been small because of said arrests and imprisonments).

Perhaps the first thing the Ukrainians could do is repeal the law that declared Russian is no longer the official second language of the government. Given the percentage of the population who are ethnic Russians, that law was a big mistake. It appears to have been a move designed to demonstrate the government's move towards Europe, but all it did was ostracise that part of the population - schools where Russian was the dominant language can no longer teach in Russian, while court proceedings that were carried out in Russian can no longer do so, either; in other words, Russian can no longer be used in any official capacity.

That law was never passed. I beleive it was rejected about (or more than) a week ago. You got some old info.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

http://america.aljazeera.com/articl...tizensstandforselfdefenseandmotherrussia.html

It's not so simple, is it?

I'm still not seeing violence as necessary. My point remains.


However, that's a terrible thing. The law stripping Russian-born Ukrainians of their language... Why not adopt a Swiss lifestyle? (Switzerland having four official languages...)

 

[prisonermonkeys]

That law was never passed. I beleive it was rejected about (or more than) a week ago.

Not that I don't believe you, but would you happen to have a source for that?

I'm still not seeing violence as necessary. My point remains.

And my point is that empty vessels make the most sound.

 

[Rage Racer]

It appears to have been a move designed to demonstrate the government's move towards Europe, but all it did was ostracise that part of the population - schools where Russian was the dominant language can no longer teach in Russian, while court proceedings that were carried out in Russian can no longer do so, either; in other words, Russian can no longer be used in any official capacity.

However, that's a terrible thing. The law stripping Russian-born Ukrainians of their language...

No officials in Ukraine actually claimed Russian language to be prosecuted or oppressed in any way.

They were. And they are. But every single meeting results in a bunch of arrests and people being imprisoned.
361 people were arrested today - and that was a reeeeeeeally small protest (they have been small because of said arrests and imprisonments).

An anti-war meeting on the Manezhnaya Square today, right? Hello democracy! And some people on the West even want freedom of speech for homosexuals here.

 

[SMfan]

Not that I don't believe you, but would you happen to have a source for that?

Yep.
http://www.unian.net/politics/89139...ie-ob-otmene-zakona-o-yazyikah-kunitsyin.html
"Turchinov vetoes the decision to repeal the law on languages"
To be certain he vetoed the decision to repel the old law. So, regional languages stay the same.

An anti-war meeting on the Manezhnaya Square today, right? Hello democracy! And some people on the West even want freedom of speech for homosexuals here.

Yeah, yeah...

 

[sumbrownkid]

So...Now what?

Russian forces are in Crimea, Ukraine is talking big but ultimately looks weak, and John Kerry is boring the crap out of everybody. It doesn't look like either side wants to fire a shot, but CNN wants this to go hot just for the ratings.

Where's Big Boss when you need him?

 

[prisonermonkeys]

"Turchinov vetoes the decision to repeal the law on languages"
To be certain he vetoed the decision to repel the old law. So, regional languages stay the same.

I can't read Ukrainian, but I do work with the English language, and seeing that translation, it could go either way. Which law on languages does this specifically refer to?

Where's Big Boss when you need him?

According to the series' canonicity, he died about two days ago.

 

[SMfan]

I can't read Ukrainian, but I do work with the English language, and seeing that translation, it could go either way. Which law on languages does this specifically refer to?

Ahh, crap, it's actually 100% clear in the original (Russian) language.
I'll try to explain. For some time there have been a law in Ukraine that allowed certain regions to have other languages than Ukrainian as their official language. Recently, the newly "adjusted" parliament voted for that law to be repelled, making quite a few people unhappy. After that, acting president Turchinov vetoed that decision.