Russian Invasion of Ukraine

[eran0004]

At this point it's very nearly a reverse trolley problem. The trolley is running towards one person, but to save them you'd have to divert the trolley towards five others. As much as it hurts knowing that person is going to die, you can't in good conscience condemn more people just to save that one. It's not NATO's fault if Ukraine falls, it's Russia's fault for invading.

The trolley problem is not an accurate model here, it’s not just about the number of casualties. It’s about respect for international law, the sovereignty of nations and respect for human life and human rights.

If Russia is allowed to take Ukraine it also sets a very dangerous example. What happens next when Putin wants to take the Baltic states to make a land connection to Kaliningrad? Should NATO apply the trolley problem and say “better they take Lithuania than risking nuclear war”?

Then Poland, Finland, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Moldova, Romania, Bulgaria, Turkey… at what point do you stop applying the trolley problem?

 

[inCloud]

380 protestors out of 1500 were arrested in StP.

Bloomberg post that our business lost 39 billions in first day of war.

 

[Greatbee]

Globally the war is on our minds. This war is about our mindsets. Be in peace, listen to nature sounds.

 

[mika haka]

What good are sanctions if it cost him say 1bn a day when he makes 2bn from his new found wealth and resources

 

[inCloud]

new found wealth

Wat? Ukraine is poor even by Russian standarts

 

[zeptrans]

The trolley problem is not an accurate model here, it’s not just about the number of casualties. It’s about respect for international law, the sovereignty of nations and respect for human life and human rights.

If Russia is allowed to take Ukraine it also sets a very dangerous example. What happens next when Putin wants to take the Baltic states to make a land connection to Kaliningrad? Should NATO apply the trolley problem and say “better they take Lithuania than risking nuclear war”?

Then Poland, Finland, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Moldova, Romania, Bulgaria, Turkey… at what point do you stop applying the trolley problem?

All countries you mention are part of EU (and NATO), Kaliningrad is between Poland and Lithuania.
One of reason Putin taking Ukraine is the fact the country is not part of EU and NATO. Ukraine has to defend alone, without other international military help.

Putin wants to take control of Ukraine. And no other country will help, he knows that.
He will not touch EU countries, crazy man, but not stupid enough. He will not taking part of a lost war against some France, Germany, UK or others (or USA, they have bases in central Europe). It is not the point.

Ukraine, Georgia, Azerbaijan, Belarus or Armenia are countries Putin wants to keep under Russian influence. If they cross the line, Russia takes back.

It is necessary to have the hope, Ukrainians could leave in peace faster than possible.​

 

[Nielsen]

I think United States needs to conduct a nuclear test. Just to underscore the sanctions with a military statement.

 

[TheCracker]

Wat? Ukraine is poor even by Russian standarts

But it's rich in agriculture and has huge mineral deposits. Its this Russia has its eye on, not any gold in its vaults.

 

[eran0004]

All countries you mention are part of EU (and NATO), Kaliningrad is between Poland and Lithuania.
One of reason Putin taking Ukraine is the fact the country is not part of EU and NATO. Ukraine has to defend alone, without other international military help.

Putin will not touch EU countries, crazy man, but not stupid enough.
Ukraine, Georgia, Azerbaijan or Armenia are countries Putin wants to keep under Russian influence.

The same thing applies though, would NATO risk a nuclear war by defending Lithuania? If Putin sees that the nuclear threat works to deter NATO from intervening, he can apply the same threat when it comes to NATO members.

 

[inCloud]

But it's rich in agriculture and has huge mineral deposits. Its this Russia has its eye on, not any gold in its vaults.

We already have enough resources. Even if those resources could be extracted (on occupied territories, good luck), what it will do with them? 2/3 of the world currently don't want to have any relations with Russia. Our business already lost 1/4 of Ukrainian GDP after one day of war, country lost waaaay more.

 

[Com Fox]

The same thing applies though, would NATO risk a nuclear war by defending Lithuania? If Putin sees that the nuclear threat works to deter NATO from intervening, he can apply the same threat when it comes to NATO members.

But when Russia approaches a NATO country. We are obligated to protect as apart of it. If we fail to do so, that puts the whole point of NATO and the protection it's meant to provide into question and a massive disastrous domino effect occurs of countries realising the thing they were banking on was a lie.

 

[Scaff]

The same thing applies though, would NATO risk a nuclear war by defending Lithuania? If Putin sees that the nuclear threat works to deter NATO from intervening, he can apply the same threat when it comes to NATO members.

NATO members already have troops in these countries, if Russia invaded them, he would have already made a move that automatically brings NATO into play. Which is why it's very, very unlikely that he will make such a move.

This is, unfortunately, a repeat of the cold war. Russia will 'retake' countries it feels it should have direct influence over if they are not behaving as Russia thinks they should, but it will stop short of NATO countries. Those it may well just go back to proxy wars to engage with.

But it's rich in agriculture and has huge mineral deposits. Its this Russia has its eye on, not any gold in its vaults.

I believe it's more straightforward than that. Putin is after rebuilding the reach and power of the former Soviet Union, he's stated this repeatedly in the past and has honestly been quite open about it.

The loss of territory and influence following the collapse of the USSR is still a wrong that needs righting for many from that era. I honestly think Putin knows that some are gone (NATO and EU members), but those than remain are seen as fair game.

 

[MatskiMonk]

I think United States needs to conduct a nuclear test. Just to underscore the sanctions with a military statement.

Breaking the the nuclear test ban treaty for the sake of flexing muscles would be a bad idea. Everyone knows America has nuclear weapons, it would achieve nothing and undermine the UN's attempts to keep the nuclear arms race under control.

 

[SestoScudo]

Some videos are too graphic to share. What an awful war.

 

[Scaff]

Breaking the the nuclear test ban treaty for the sake of flexing muscles would be a bad idea. Everyone knows America has nuclear weapons, it would achieve nothing and undermine the UN's attempts to keep the nuclear arms race under control.

Yep, we do not need a return to that crap, I lived through the '70s and '80s and had enough of it back then.

 

[Nielsen]

Breaking the the nuclear test ban treaty for the sake of flexing muscles would be a bad idea. Everyone knows America has nuclear weapons, it would achieve nothing and undermine the UN's attempts to keep the nuclear arms race under control.

Doesn’t such a treaty only cover tests involving warheads? I’m not saying they should detonate a nuclear bomb, but simply perform an ICBM drill or similar, simulating a nuclear launch. Send a signal to Russia that cannot be misunderstood. It’s necessary.

 

[zeptrans]

The same thing applies though, would NATO risk a nuclear war by defending Lithuania? If Putin sees that the nuclear threat works to deter NATO from intervening, he can apply the same threat when it comes to NATO members.

Nuclear is more a defensive tool nowadays. And I repeat, touching a EU members, is touching other ones, and Putin don't need it (and surely don't want it).
To be clear with that example:

• Ukraine, big country, but poor (compare to Europe standards), some political problems... and taking part of any international defense system, alone. Military weak.
• an example: Lithuania, little country, taking part of EU/NATO. Military surely weaker, but under NATO.

When a conflict is in a no-NATO country, NATO is just here to "see how it goes". In time Ukraine tried to enter into NATO if you remember, and Russia was not happy at all.

Just to say, Russia is not the big USSR military/economy power. The only "allied" country is China, and China will clearly not help Russia in this way. More today.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Some videos are too graphic to share. What an awful war.

The video apparently showing a Russian tank swerving to intentionally flatten a Ukrainian car, speeding in the opposite direction, was my morning dose of "what-the-****-is-going-on!".

I believe it's more straightforward than that. Putin is after rebuilding the reach and power of the former Soviet Union, he's stated this repeatedly in the past and has honestly been quite open about it.

The loss of territory and influence following the collapse of the USSR is still a wrong that needs righting for many from that era. I honestly think Putin knows that some are gone (NATO and EU members), but those than remain are seen as fair game.

Belarus could well be the next battle ground. Lukashenko clearly supported this war, and Putin, but his legitimacy as leader is deeply in question, the opposition candidate is attempting to diplomatically take control. Putin likely will send in the tanks if Lukashenko is in jeopardy to "support" him. If it takes full on Russian military occupation to keep Belarus under dictatorial control, then Belarus is just going to be the filling in a ****-sandwich. They need to get Lukashenko out NOW, because extricating Belarus from his or Putins regime this time next year is likely to be far more bloody.

 

[Scaff]

Doesn’t such a treaty only cover tests involving warheads? I’m not saying they should detonate a nuclear bomb, but simply perform an ICBM drill or similar, simulating a nuclear launch. Send a signal to Russia that cannot be misunderstood. It’s necessary.

ICBM Tests are done regularly as part of military exercises, Russia has done some recently and if I recall the US did some as part of joint exercises with South Korea last year.

 

[Dotini]

Yep, we do not need a return to that crap, I lived through the '70s and '80s and had enough of it back then.

Agreed. The mobile SS-20 and Pershing II MIRV'd IRBMs so frightened world leaders at the time that they were banned by treaty. They were rightly considered most destabilizing, dangerous and outright evil weapons ever devised by humanity. Now they are back again, and we are closer to the end of us than ever.

 

[SestoScudo]

ICBM Tests are done regularly as part of military exercises, Russia has done some recently and if I recall the US did some as part of joint exercises with South Korea last year.

Russia in 2019 tested a Nuclear powered cruise missile which led to a radiation accident.

We still dont know what happened.

 

[Nielsen]

ICBM Tests are done regularly as part of military exercises, Russia has done some recently and if I recall the US did some as part of joint exercises with South Korea last year.

Exactly, Russia performed a drill the other day and it was announced as a nuclear test. United States should respond with a similar manoeuvre as deterrence. Russia’s government seemingly doesn’t take the political sanctions very seriously, so the West must send a signal informing Russia to not even consider going further than Ukraine. They probably won’t go further, but no one really knows if this invasion is motivated by imperialism at every cost. We don’t know and shouldn’t be naive just because we’re in the 21st century.

 

[Scaff]

Russia in 2019 tested a Nuclear powered cruise missile which led to a radiation accident.

Still dont know what happened.

As long as no-one tries to bring back the Flying Crowbar I have some faith in humanity, oh wait that's whaty Russia were doing.

Project Pluto

The horrifying weapon that nearly was

historyofyesterday.com

 

[MatskiMonk]

Exactly, Russia performed a drill the other day and it was announced as a nuclear test. United States should respond with a similar manoeuvre as deterrence. Russia’s government seemingly doesn’t take the political sanctions very seriously, so the West must send a signal informing Russia to not even consider going further than Ukraine.

Perhaps it's just me, but the deterrent is in believing your enemy will use the weapons, not in them just having them. Testing when your enemy knows you already have the capability is an empty threat, and all Russia has to do is not stop what they're doing, and they've effectively called America's bluff.

Until Russia know NATO or western allies will deploy weapons on Russian or Ukrainian soil, posturing will be ineffective... and at the moment, they know we won't.

 

[Nielsen]

Perhaps it's just me, but the deterrent is in believing your enemy will use the weapons, not in them just having them. Testing when your enemy knows you already have the capability is an empty threat, and all Russia has to do is not stop what they're doing, and they've effectively called America's bluff.

Until Russia know NATO or western allies will deploy weapons on Russian or Ukrainian soil, posturing will be ineffective... and at the moment, they know we won't.

I do not agree at all. Again, Russia doesn’t appear to take the sanctions seriously, and that is a cause for concern in its own right. For this reason the West needs to send a threatening signal that will be taken seriously. Besides, it doesn’t hurt to conduct ICBM testing when tensions are high. Keeps the military on its toes, as they have to be.

 

[mika haka]

Putin doesnt care though and cant be reasoned with.

The west need to take him out to restore world peace

We should call his bluff, as no sane russian would deploy nukes when they know its committing suicide

 

[Gas12]

The video apparently showing a Russian tank swerving to intentionally flatten a Ukrainian car, speeding in the opposite direction, was my morning dose of "what-the-****-is-going-on!".

Indeed several friends of mine were talking about how it might be better just to fold and let the Russians in rather than die, then re group from there.
But as i pointed out it gets medieval pretty quick once soldiers take control, raping and pillaging sadly has always been part of War.

As that terrible clip of a tank, for fun, totals a moving car, clearly shows.
I'm sorry to say that you only need look at the way the Russian police operate to imagine their soldiers are even more sub human scum.

I'll lay my cards on the table here, i despise Pootin, always have, and any pro Putin Russian or ones who take his lead, frankly i make no apologies for saying, you are scum and would not shed a tear if you all got wiped out tomorrow.

So yes, I am very biased.
It warms me to see pictures of dead Russian soldiers and destroyed Russian tanks.
Same way i grew up being glad for every Nazi my Grandpa and countrymen slaughtered.

 

[SestoScudo]

As long as no-one tries to bring back the Flying Crowbar I have some faith in humanity, oh wait that's whaty Russia were doing.

Project Pluto

The horrifying weapon that nearly was

historyofyesterday.com

Cold war sure was a screwed up arms race the Americans and the Soviets were experimenting with such dangerous stuff that they did not care about consequences. Good thing even with the most screwed up weapon system development the Americans knew went to to just give it up and let it go. The Russians will go to any to lengths. Despite Skyfall leaking radiation with its failed explosion Putin said he wont give up development of said missile it has to be perfected regardless.

Cold war was a crazy time.

 

[MatskiMonk]

For this reason the West needs to send a threatening signal that will be taken seriously.

... what makes you think it would be taken seriously? What benefit do you think threatening the Russian people will bring? What makes you think that even if it was an effective threat, that it would act to de-escalate things, rather than being met with similar actions from Russia?

It's a waste of credibility in my opinion. The USA hasn't put a troop on the ground in Ukraine yet, there cannot be an emptier threat than pretending you'll bring about the end of the world as we know it when you're not actually prepared to risk 1 soldier.

 

[swinny]

How on earth can anyone in Russia or elsewhere believe in what Putin and his war criminals are doing or saying ,if only the Russian people would get rid of them on their own,these idiots have stolen so much money from their own Russian people.They are a disgrace to humanity.