Save the Manuals!

[Conza]

Some other features that are new to me are the shift indicator gauge, which is telling me to be in 6th gear even though I'm only going 45 mph, obviously optimized for gas milege..

Well of course it does! Ok I drive in Kph, but I've been at 100 in second then changed to fifth so I could get the maximum acceleration, then get the maximum fuel economy, likewise I've been in fifth at nearly 50, and at 70 (44mph) I'm always in fifth, even at 60, unless it's an extremely twisty section I want to keep up the power, don't see why I'd ever waste fuel at a lower gear,

 

[HOODFIELD]

Not only is the DSG more fuel efficient, it's faster too. But I commute to work four miles, I don't have to worry about traffic.

Driving stick is just fun plain and simple and it would be a shame to see it go completely. But I understand it's not practical for the majority.

@Murcie_LP640
Hill-Hold in manual car confirmed. 👍 Don't really think it's an assist because if you wait too long you will roll back.

@ Conza
I know what you mean, sometimes I just go from 4th to 6th. Premium fuel isn't cheap.

 

[alexlam24]

Manual ftw. Mainly because you can't text or call while driving or if you're from new Jersey, stop in the middle of the road and eat a apple and read a book while holding up half the main street. Yes I have seen that before

 

[1241Penguin]

Manual ftw. Mainly because you can't text or call while driving or if you're from new Jersey

It's possible; no hands on the steering wheel.

 

[McLaren]

Manual ftw. Mainly because you can't text or call while driving or if you're from new Jersey, stop in the middle of the road and eat a apple and read a book while holding up half the main street. Yes I have seen that before

The transmission doesn't stop that at all. Seen a couple of my own friends still answer & talk on the phone whilst driving a manual.

 

[alexlam24]

The transmission doesn't stop that at all. Seen a couple of my own friends still answer & talk on the phone whilst driving a manual.

Well In my town you have a couple lights and if you manage to drive I-95 without downshifting, you're obviously running from the popo

 

[1241Penguin]

Well In my town you have a couple lights and if you manage to drive I-95 without downshifting, you're obviously running from the popo

That's assuming that the cellphone is somehow attached permanently to their hands.

 

[Azuremen]

Well In my town you have a couple lights and if you manage to drive I-95 without downshifting, you're obviously running from the popo

I think you are seriously under estimating how easy it is to use a single hand to text. And how lazy you can be about shifting in a car with some torque and decent ratios.

 

[Murcie_LP640]

@Murcie_LP640
Hill-Hold in manual car confirmed. 👍 Don't really think it's an assist because if you wait too long you will roll back.

Yeah that's what the Hill-Start Assist does. After two seconds it will release the brakes. So yeah, if you're not on the accelerator by then it'll start rolling back.

 

[dudejo]

When a reasonable proportion of this forum live in Europe (where traffic is generally heavy and streets are tight) and drive relatively small cars, it's entirely reasonable that people can see the appeal of automatics in traffic.

It's not hard to drive a manual vehicle in traffic. But once you've been crawling along for an hour on and off the clutch, an auto is certainly preferable. You've not gone as far as to say manuals are better than autos in traffic, but if that's what you're implying then it's nonsense.

Manuals have plenty of benefits over automatics. Driving in stop-start traffic is absolutely the last thing I'd choose to defend them...

I'm not questioning an auto's ease of use. I'm wondering why a manual is THAT bad of a burden for most people.

I've had my share of hour-long jams and the worst problem I usually get is that my left foot tends to slip so I have to reset its position every now and then. Luckily, I tend to have all the time I need to do that. Also, the clutch in my car (a Focus) is reasonably light so I can push the pedal with only my foot.

My overall experience with manuals built for daily drivers (Ford Escort '91, Chevy Aveo 2005, Ford Focus 2005) tell me that using them in stop-go traffic may not be as bad as most people make it out to be. The hardest time I've had with a manual was a 3.0L Ford Ranger. The torque range was at higher RPMs than my current Focus so my throttle handling was rough. I can put my Focus in 5th at 40km/h without choking the engine but the Ranger isn't as accommodating with my low-speed/high-gear shifting style.

 

[niky]

Not all cars are built the same. Thus, not all automatics are as dire on a challenging road as most people believe, and not all manuals are a cinch to drive.

Drive a Genesis, with that crunchy shift action and heavy clutch for a few hours in traffic... Or an STI. Or perhaps a Hyundai where the clutch bites somewhere between 0" and 0.5" of travel.

Then go and do that when you're forty and the arthritis starts to kick in.

Granted, you get used to it, and there are grannies out there driving old SUVs with clutches like an anvil, but if there's no logical reason to put up with it... why put up with it?

 

[homeforsummer]

I'm not questioning an auto's ease of use. I'm wondering why a manual is THAT bad of a burden for most people.

I didn't say it was a burden. I said auto was preferable in traffic. Because it is.

I've driven around sixty cars this year alone. The best manuals have been better than the majority of the autos, and the best autos have been better than the majority of the manuals. The former are more fun on country roads; the latter are considerably better in traffic. Particularly when stuck in edging-forward Olympic traffic in London for two hours for a seven mile journey...

Subjectively, I'm also a more relaxed driver in an automatic car. I tend to drive a little slower and less aggressively, and find myself more relaxed at the end of a journey. When the journey is a bog-standard, boring motorway run (and not a nice 70mph for hours on end one either - a typical UK 40-60mph slog with endless overtaking lorries to slow down for, heavy traffic and usually a bit of rain) the "fun" of a manual gearbox is rather lost on me.

I'd add that I've not yet *owned* a car with an automatic gearbox, so read into my comments what you will.

 

[dudejo]

A Genesis, an STI...those are sports cars with at least 300 hp. They'll obviously have a heavy clutch compared to a 110 hp Toyota Yaris, whose clutch is barely heavier than the throttle.

As for homeforsummer's comment, while I do enjoy spirited acceleration when the coast is clear, I also tend to look ahead more before slowing down because getting caught in the wrong gear means your engine has no real torque to work with. Not to mention that the right gear helps to slow the car down.

Basically, my point is that while clutching in repeatedly stopping traffic is indeed less convenient than an automatic, the light clutches in low-powered cars reduce the problem to a driver's potential lack of coordination, which is much easier to fix than arthritis.

Also, you say that you drive sixty cars in a year. That's what, ~50 hours per car? For better or worse, manuals aren't the kind of cars you can just pick up and drive naturally.

 

[Joey D]

My Neon has a fairly heavy and finicky clutch and while it's not a burden to drive in traffic, it's certainly something I don't want to really do. It's not hard to drive it, it's just a PITA.

 

[dudejo]

Is it a cable clutch or hydraulic? Personally, my Focus' clutch is lighter than the brake.

 

[Joey D]

Is it a cable clutch or hydraulic? Personally, my Focus' clutch is lighter than the brake.

It's a cable clutch.

 

[dudejo]

It's a cable clutch.

Assuming you're driving the 2.4L, I can see how that clutch would get tiring.

 

[homeforsummer]

Also, you say that you drive sixty cars in a year. That's what, ~50 hours per car? For better or worse, manuals aren't the kind of cars you can just pick up and drive naturally.

50 hours?! If I never slept, perhaps

How long I spend in a car depends. Several may be for as little as 30 minutes. Others are for a week. It'll be more than 60 cars by the end of this year - it's 60-ish so far.

And really, I'd say that it's quite easy to get into any vehicle and drive it naturally, provided it's been made in the last 20 years. Any older than that and cars tend to have a lot more "quirks". Heavy clutches, imprecise gearboxes, brakes that don't brake etc.

The action of using a manual with a clutch doesn't bother me, regardless of the car. But crawling in walking-pace traffic, being on and off the clutch all the time, is a ball-ache even in a car with a light clutch. The last car I drove through London in the aforementioned 2 hours/7 miles scenario was a Kia Picanto. But the clutch still requires more technique to make smooth progess. An auto just needs light pressure on either the gas or brake - and in very low speed traffic, just on and off the brake really.

I'm not saying you're wrong - if you don't mind a left leg workout for hours at a time, that's your prerogative. I'm just saying that if I regularly had to sit in traffic, it'd be an auto every time.

But then as I've said before in this thread, I prefer the idea of having a toy in the garage and a lazy, relaxing daily than having a car that has to try and handle disparate pursuits equally well. Manual for weekends, auto during the week.

 

[niky]

dudejo: You're talking to guys who drive sixty cars a year, and talking about manuals not being easy to get used to? I have to do acxeleration testing on sixty or more cars a year. That means learning the biting point, proper launch rpm and other various idiosyncrasies for dozens of manuals, and torque stall speeds and magic TCS/VDC/Sport settings for dozens of automatics.

It's not a case of manuals being hard to learn. It's a case of manuals being inconvenient to drive in traffic. Again, not impossible. Just very inconvenient.

 

[dudejo]

I'm not saying you're wrong - if you don't mind a left leg workout for hours at a time, that's your prerogative. I'm just saying that if I regularly had to sit in traffic, it'd be an auto every time.

That's the thing. It's not a workout because I don't need my leg. I need my coordination and my foot but not my leg.

It's not a case of manuals being hard to learn. It's a case of manuals being inconvenient to drive in traffic. Again, not impossible. Just very inconvenient.

At least for my car, all you need to drive it in heavy traffic is coordination. The clutch is light enough to operate by foot (instead of leg) and the engine makes enough torque at idle that you just need a slight tap on the throttle before releasing the clutch. Considering heavy traffic ain't going nowhere fast, this gives me all the speed I need.

To me, it wouldn't start getting inconvenient until I got stuck in uphill traffic. Which I can live with since it's only 33% of possibly hills (uphill, no hill, downhill).

 

[McLaren]

A Genesis, an STI...those are sports cars with at least 300 hp. They'll obviously have a heavy clutch compared to a 110 hp Toyota Yaris, whose clutch is barely heavier than the throttle.

How would you explain the easy clutch in a 2012+ 5.0 Mustang then?

 

[homeforsummer]

That's the thing. It's not a workout because I don't need my leg. I need my coordination and my foot but not my leg.

Light clutch or not, I've never driven a car that needs no more than a flex of the ankle to operate the clutch. To some degree, it needs your leg too. And with constant clutching de-clutching, that takes effort. Repeat a few hundred times as you do in traffic, and for me at least the appeal starts to wane.

 

[niky]

Let's just put it this way... If you could type out missives with titles in all-capitals without holding down the shift key... why wouldn't you? it's not too hard to hold down a typewriter shift key, but it's an unnecessary annoyance and extra work that you don't really need to do in order to type.

This is speaking as a touch typist who never uses caps lock. I don't like the caps lock key, but I wouldn't take it away from people WHO REFUSE TO STOP SHOUTING ON THE INTERNET.

That wa typed with the shift key held down. On an iPad. Because I'm hardcore.

 

[dudejo]

How would you explain the easy clutch in a 2012+ 5.0 Mustang then?

Hydraulic clutch? This ain't the same 5.0 Mustang from the mid-80's.

Light clutch or not, I've never driven a car that needs no more than a flex of the ankle to operate the clutch. To some degree, it needs your leg too. And with constant clutching de-clutching, that takes effort. Repeat a few hundred times as you do in traffic, and for me at least the appeal starts to wane.

I guess I'd have to experience the traffic jams you've seen. If it got as bad as you're saying even with my car, I'd consider it pretty conclusive.

Let's just put it this way... If you could type out missives with titles in all-capitals without holding down the shift key... why wouldn't you? it's not too hard to hold down a typewriter shift key, but it's an unnecessary annoyance and extra work that you don't really need to do in order to type.

This is speaking as a touch typist who never uses caps lock. I don't like the caps lock key, but I wouldn't take it away from people WHO REFUSE TO STOP SHOUTING ON THE INTERNET.

That was typed with the shift key held down. On an iPad. Because I'm hardcore.

I get what you're saying. However, you don't need to hold a clutch down for a dozen seconds at a time so it's not really comparable.

 

[niky]

Two hours. How many shifts, would you say? How many two or three second events where you slip the clutch a bit for a smoother first gear start in stop and go traffic?

 

[homeforsummer]

Two hours. How many shifts, would you say? How many two or three second events where you slip the clutch a bit for a smoother first gear start in stop and go traffic?

The second part is the real annoyance. If the clutch was like an on-off switch it wouldn't really be an issue. But balancing it around the biting point to smoothly move off... before quickly depressing it again as traffic stops again... wash rinse repeat (plus knocking it into neutral at each stop to save wear and tear on the release bearings). Two hours is bad but honestly, it gets a bit tedious even after 20 minutes. And in the UK at least, half the time you're doing that on a motorway, so you're already cheesed off that you're wasting time that could be spent cruising at 70...

 

[Clark]

'70...'

 

[LancerEvo7]

I successfully drove a manual for the first time today. Really want to get one now.

 

[Clark]

Note to all manual gearbox users, don't drive an old BMW with a really stiff clutch pedal with looooonnng travel and a handbrake that doesn't hold it down Broad Street in Brum at 6.30pm on a Friday night when going to pick your girlfriend up from Uni.

I wanted to chop my left leg off at one point, stuck in stop start traffic.

 

[homeforsummer]

Note to all manual gearbox users, don't drive an old BMW with a really stiff clutch pedal with looooonnng travel and a handbrake that doesn't hold it down Broad Street in Brum at 6.30pm on a Friday night when going to pick your girlfriend up from Uni.

I wanted to chop my left leg off at one point, stuck in stop start traffic.

Makes me recall my worst manual gearbox moment. Jaguar MkII 3.4. Notoriously difficult "Moss 'box" with no synchro on 1st. Steep hill. Weak handbrake, unable to hold car on said steep hill during a hill start. High clutch biting point. Slipping clutch.

Needless to say I've never felt like such an incompetent driver in my entire life It was like learning to drive with a broken car. I'd been driving an automatic Jensen Interceptor an hour before. Guess which one I preferred?...