Should 'god' be in the Pledge of Allegiance?
- Thread starter Duke
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Gran Turismo7058
(Banned)
- 4,860
Who ever came up with this change in the pledge is going to burn in hell!
- 2,970
I hope you are joking. If you are joking, it's not funny. If you aren't joking, you are a sick, twisted, misinformed little man.
Gran Turismo7058
(Banned)
- 4,860
Im am sorry that joke was kinda EVIL!!!!
- 6,977
- old-guy64
Guys,
A lot of you are under the impression that the US of A was founded on the Christian religion:
1. There are hundreds of denominations that consider themselves to be Christians. And their only commonality is the belief in Christ, the son of God. As such, there is still not a State/National religion endorsed by the U.S. Gov't.
2. Christianity as whole is not bad or evil just because we Christians believe that God is real and wants us to act with a modicum of morality.
3. The Country was founded on the principles of the Bible, (See Exodus 20:1-21) The Generally accepted code of behavior is there.
4. I have been in war/combat. There are NO atheists in foxholes. If there is no God where is there space for Hope?
5. I don't believe that any good can come out of removing the words "under God" from the pledge.
We allowed prayer to be removed from the schools, nothing good came of that. We removed the teaching of specific morality from the schools, nothing good has come of that. The simple number of incedents such as the Columbine shootings, drive-by shootings, etc. are direct indicators of that.
Should God be in the pledge of allegiance? I don't know. But for those of you who don't believe in God, the burden of proof is on you. There is enough empirical evidence for me to belive that he exists.
If you can set up a scientific experiment that starts with a an environment void of just about everything, and have life, with the diversity that exists in nature, somehow just spring up, without any kind of intervention from a Supreme Being, I will join you in your belief that there is no God.
However, barring that event, I will continue to believe in God.
As for the arguement that you can't see Him therefore he doesn't exist...We can't see air (those of you in Los Angeles are exempt from that part) but we believe it exists.
The promises for those that believe are great enough that I am not willing to risk not believing.
AS I am fond of saying lately;
Here endeth the rant.
A lot of you are under the impression that the US of A was founded on the Christian religion:
1. There are hundreds of denominations that consider themselves to be Christians. And their only commonality is the belief in Christ, the son of God. As such, there is still not a State/National religion endorsed by the U.S. Gov't.
2. Christianity as whole is not bad or evil just because we Christians believe that God is real and wants us to act with a modicum of morality.
3. The Country was founded on the principles of the Bible, (See Exodus 20:1-21) The Generally accepted code of behavior is there.
4. I have been in war/combat. There are NO atheists in foxholes. If there is no God where is there space for Hope?
5. I don't believe that any good can come out of removing the words "under God" from the pledge.
We allowed prayer to be removed from the schools, nothing good came of that. We removed the teaching of specific morality from the schools, nothing good has come of that. The simple number of incedents such as the Columbine shootings, drive-by shootings, etc. are direct indicators of that.
Should God be in the pledge of allegiance? I don't know. But for those of you who don't believe in God, the burden of proof is on you. There is enough empirical evidence for me to belive that he exists.
If you can set up a scientific experiment that starts with a an environment void of just about everything, and have life, with the diversity that exists in nature, somehow just spring up, without any kind of intervention from a Supreme Being, I will join you in your belief that there is no God.
However, barring that event, I will continue to believe in God.
As for the arguement that you can't see Him therefore he doesn't exist...We can't see air (those of you in Los Angeles are exempt from that part) but we believe it exists.
The promises for those that believe are great enough that I am not willing to risk not believing.
AS I am fond of saying lately;
Here endeth the rant.
- 2,970
I don't think you understand. CHRISTIAN PRAYER IN SCHOOL IS FINE FOR THE CHRISTIANS, BUT WHAT ABOUT THE JEWS? WHAT ABOUT THE MUSLIMS? WHAT ABOUT THE WICCANS? WHAT ABOUT THE NATIVE AMERICANS? WHAT ABOUT THE ATHEISTS? 
I'm tired of people looking at things from the perspective that their religion is supreme. You simply can't make logical decisions from that standpoint.
I'm tired of people looking at things from the perspective that their religion is supreme. You simply can't make logical decisions from that standpoint.
Sage
Staff Emeritus
- 12,533
- United States
- GTP_Sage
Oops, sorry... I'll send it in a sec.Originally posted by Jordan
Oh, by the way, I checked my PM's but I haven't gotten anything yet.
It doesn't matter whether or not God exists... that conversation can be discussed in some other thread. The topic at hand is whether or not using the word "God" in our Pledge is Constitutional, since this country is *supposed* to support freedom of religious (or non-religious) belief.
I won't have to say it... when I say "under God", I feel like a hypocrite.
Again, that can be reserved for another discussion... However, I doubt that you will find very many smart atheists who will use the argument of vision... that is absurd, and you will only find un-educated teenage atheists saying that. There are other reasons for not believing in God, but again, I'll save that for another argument.
- 6,977
- old-guy64
Again, go back to the state of mind of the framers of the Constitution. They likely, did not anticipate the debate that has arisen.
As for removing prayer from the schools, AND the removal of morality based teaching: The Schools used to further the teaching of the concept of good and evil/right and wrong with morality based teaching. When I was in school we weren't "advanced" enough to shoot each other while driving down the street. Morality based teaching stated that killing is wrong. We'd settle it with our fists and likely be friends later. Maybe that is a typical belief for my age group Ruf, But you can't deny the history. You used to be able to walk down the street and fear nothing worse than a good a**-whuppin' if your enemies ran across you. Now, you can't reliably say that. And the only big change in that time frame was the removal of prayer and morality based teaching.
And Stealth, all the groups you mentioned have a belief in a Supreme being, a God if you will. God, Jehovah, Allah, The Great Spirit, etc. I was very careful NOT to speak to the supremacy of ANY faith/denomination. I was in that trap in my youth. God is simply God and God IS supreme no matter how addressed.
Youth Cycler, I still have no emprical evidence that there is no God. You may have a good reason for not believing. I do not. But for the sake of continued peace between us, we will have to agree to disagree on this point.
This also leads back to my question #4 above. Without a God, Where is the Hope?
As for removing prayer from the schools, AND the removal of morality based teaching: The Schools used to further the teaching of the concept of good and evil/right and wrong with morality based teaching. When I was in school we weren't "advanced" enough to shoot each other while driving down the street. Morality based teaching stated that killing is wrong. We'd settle it with our fists and likely be friends later. Maybe that is a typical belief for my age group Ruf, But you can't deny the history. You used to be able to walk down the street and fear nothing worse than a good a**-whuppin' if your enemies ran across you. Now, you can't reliably say that. And the only big change in that time frame was the removal of prayer and morality based teaching.
And Stealth, all the groups you mentioned have a belief in a Supreme being, a God if you will. God, Jehovah, Allah, The Great Spirit, etc. I was very careful NOT to speak to the supremacy of ANY faith/denomination. I was in that trap in my youth. God is simply God and God IS supreme no matter how addressed.
Youth Cycler, I still have no emprical evidence that there is no God. You may have a good reason for not believing. I do not. But for the sake of continued peace between us, we will have to agree to disagree on this point.
This also leads back to my question #4 above. Without a God, Where is the Hope?
- 2,970
The argument that "God" should be in the Pledge is almost STRICTLY Christian. The argument that it should not, however, is not only from atheists. Most Jews I know feel the same way. Hey...I'm Jewish by background (and perhaps a bit unsure about my religious beliefs).
The argument that God should not be present in government is put forth by those who are sensitive to what is and isn't meant for our country by our constitution. Don't even try to tell me that Jesus is the true messiah and that our government should suck it up and admit it. Most of the population (including the majority of Christians) will regard you as a religious zealot.
- 6,977
- old-guy64
I never said you weren't a good man. Your defense of your opinion, and the fact you have a belief structure that you are willing to defend in a civil manner is proof of that. But what is your reward for living a good life? Is there a form of Heaven?
Now, I'm not ranting but am truly seeking knowledge.
See, In my heart I believe that I am trying to reach the Heaven I believe exists. It makes it easier to endure the hard times. It all comes back to the Hope I mentioned earlier.
As for the rest of you. My intention was not to offend. Just to put forth my opinion. My life and profession have made me very outspoken. I was already opinionated, Now I'm louder.
Gran Turismo7058
(Banned)
- 4,860
Ok GOD should be it period..........
If your heard in my first post in this thread.
i am a christrain
my girlfriend is christian
my whole family is christian
basicly now you know the basics!!!
If your heard in my first post in this thread.
i am a christrain
my girlfriend is christian
my whole family is christian
basicly now you know the basics!!!
Sage
Staff Emeritus
- 12,533
- United States
- GTP_Sage
Let me refer you to this link as a quick reference to my "purpose".
Dat's otay... these debates are fun!
Erm, your whole family being Christian has what to do with dis?
BTW, I want to just quickly touch on a side thought... why do some people think that it's okay to threaten to kill people (the atheist who brought this idea to court), yet they think it's wrong to simply challenge something that some people think is wrong... ouch, my head hurts.
- 2,970
It doesn't matter that you're Christian. It wouldn't matter if 100% of the whole damn country was Christian!!! The fact is that God and the government are required by law to be distinct and wholly separate, therefore the NATIONAL PLEDGE cannot involve God.
- 24,467
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- GTP_Jordan
- GTP_Jordan
Close enough. I think he's more confused than anything.
OK, you can stop putting words in my mouth now. I *never* said that our government should support or sponser Christianity. I'm saying that as athiests continue to be so agressive and passionate about promoting their beliefs (which by definition could be considered a religion itself), the ethics and morality of the general populous will degrade further than it already is as people blaspheme normal religious practices. Although there is plenty of data to indicate most athiests are "good people", how long will that last if there is no motivation to do good?
Sage
Staff Emeritus
- 12,533
- United States
- GTP_Sage
Refer to my link above.
I think if at least the majority of atheists adopted Objectivism, there wouldn't be such an argument. (This is my opinion, of course).The fact is that God and the government are required by law to be distinct and wholly separate, therefore the NATIONAL PLEDGE cannot involve God.
Just wanted to reiterate what Stealth said, as this is, quite frankly, the basis for argument on this matter.
- 24,467
- United States
- GTP_Jordan
- GTP_Jordan
I did read it, but I never saw mention of any type of reward for doing good?Originally posted by youth_cycler
Refer to my link above.
It takes faith to believe that. But, personally, I find it takes a lot more faith to believe that the earth just "happened" to be here (with the Big Bang and evolution), which is why I am a Christian.
- 2,970
I think it's impossible to debate this with you because you are convinced that Christianity is right, Jesus is the messiah, etc., and there is little openness to the possibility that other beliefs are acceptable.
Sage
Staff Emeritus
- 12,533
- United States
- GTP_Sage
My reward is knowing that I'm doing what's ethically and morally right. What more of a reward do I need? Let's put it this way: If there was evidence that an afterlife didn't exist, would you suddenly turn into a "bad" person?
It takes faith to believe that [Christianity]. But, personally, I find it takes a lot more faith to believe that the earth just "happened" to be here (with God), which is why I am an atheist.
:smilewink
- 2,970
ONE MORE TIME:
The fact is that God and the government are required by law to be distinct and wholly separate, therefore the NATIONAL PLEDGE cannot involve God.
I think we've gotten a bit off-topic...I want to hear the opinions of those that oppose the change that was made (i.e. Jordan).
The fact is that God and the government are required by law to be distinct and wholly separate, therefore the NATIONAL PLEDGE cannot involve God.
I think we've gotten a bit off-topic...I want to hear the opinions of those that oppose the change that was made (i.e. Jordan).
- 24,467
- United States
- GTP_Jordan
- GTP_Jordan
I think it's impossible to debate this with you because you are convinced that Christianity is wrong, Jesus is not the Messiah, etc., and there is little openness to the possibilty that Christian beliefs are acceptable.
So, shall we agree to disagree?
That's a very good question. I believe that had I not been raised in a Christian household with strong morals, I would not be the person I am today.
LOL!
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