(Spin) Problem Handling Cars list

  • Thread starter Gturbo5
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Mr P510
I agree the Honda NSX..(and every other Mid-Rear drive car) is broken.There's no way these cars would be that hard to stop spinning irl.

Just as an example of "nice" sim physics in a mid-rear layout,rFactor has a new NSX mod just out.....I had no trouble keeping this in a straight line,although I can easily feel the weight behind me.

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No. Just No.

You are wrong. The NSX is one of the most fun, balanced cars in the game.. Unbelievable.
 
Voodoovaj
The only thing "Broken" is the feedback you get in the car settings for what the changes are doing. It's too trial and error, with far too many factors affecting the trial.

Car over steers - Go tune - have no idea what does what, so I tweak this number over here - go test and get CRAZY oversteer (most like from some unrelated reason) - go tune blindly again.

From all that we've seen in GT5, the game does have the ability to report back car behavior to the user. it would be immensely useful if we could get a section (maybe in GT Auto) that helped players adjust their cars.

How did they arrive at the base spring rates? Why are some cars fine to drive while other want to spin at the slightest hint of steering input? There is just a lot of unnecessary confusion happening and it all circles around the core game play, so that should be addressed.
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I'd like to re-extend my offer to give people generic tuning setups advice if desired. I can tune understeer out of FF and oversteer out of MR by reversing the same setup.
 
McLOVIN5489
That response alone tells me that your particular problem is in your driving rather than your car.
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I was talking about car physics in general and not only MR! THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG whether u guys like it or not.. I cannot understand this elitist behaviour of some of you guys! I don't like repeating myself, or bragging but check my channel --> goenglishcy in youtube! I have the fastest laptime in Achna speedway in Cyprus (stock cat mx5) The problem is not whether i can handle the cars or not but that in order to do so I resort to driving I'd never do in real life! What can't you guys understand? It's not about being easy or hard to drive it's about NOT BEING REFLECTIVE OF REAL LIFE!

Fanatec csr elite/g25 pedals
 
One thing to remember is to pretty much never talk about your real on the road experience when comparing it to the game. Unless you are a seasoned race driver your real world driving isn't going prove anything over the game simply because in real life you drive with apprehension. You do not drive you do in the game, no one hammers the throttle coming out of corners or brakes late and deep into a turn...how would your everyday driving compare to anything you do in the game?

The game is attempting to simulate complex behaviors in vehicles, there are some issues with some cars that relates to their steering rack and not the actual game physics Audi R8 LMS Ultra springs to mind. For the majority of cars' I've driven they handle relatively ok and ask for your attention. While I have never driven those cars in real life, it's assured that someone who had a hand in creating the game did. The physics of the game is global so it's just plug in values and the calculations take car of the rest, so if the physics were broken then every MR would reflect that...but they all have varying degrees of difficulty. That breaks the idea of physics and it coming down to something more specific with each vehicle I'm not saying the cars are perfect nor are they broken but anything is possible.

What I say is to learn to drive each drivetrain type, but do not assume because you drove it before means you can handle any drive type with ease. This is possibly the thinking leading many drivers issues with cars in the game, all cars are not equal nor do they all handle exactly alike. MR and RR cars tend to be the most difficult to drive fast because they require utmost attention, they do not behave like FR cars so you cannot drive them the same. The majority of their weight is behind the driver which is a boon because it allows the car to turn very quickly also it will cause loss of control because the car is very easy to turn. Doubled Edged blade is what MR cars and RR are because their nimble handling requires greater attention the harder you push the car. You have to manage tire load and weight shift, steering angle, brake and throttle inputs. Going in a straight line is the easy part, managing the balance of the car through a corner isn't as easy though. It takes some learning to deal with it, but it can be done.

Now we can draw PD's attention to some cars with odd steering issues LMS Ultra '12 turn excessively to quick. There are probably a few more but I haven't found any more. The GT40 classic car is quick and I think may suffer from the quick steering issues of the LMS just not as severe but it's is a very temperamental drive if not fun and daunting when in a race.

Ok a thing about grip and slip in relation to tire simulation. I tend to drive on CS or SH on cars in GT6 and what I noticed is losing grip in GT6 is a very marked experience. I have over driven the tires and started losing the back end and all it took was getting off the car and countersteering a tad and allowing the inertia to straighten the car, in GT5 you had to jostle the steering in order to attempt to save it and it didn't always work because of the weird on/off grip GT5 had at the limit, once you reached the limit all grip was lost and it was anyone's guess when the grip was turned back on after you got off the throttle, some times it was sudden and the car would dart off in an unintended direction. GT6 is way more progressive and you actually feel grip slowly running out and even with the weird ridiculously fast steering(on a pad set to 0) letting the LSD reign in the wheels to get your grip back while steering the car to line it up.

Ok before trying to tune first know how to drive the car a little first, if you can't understand why you're losing control what exactly are you going to tune?

http://www.rac3.info/setup/?l=en

I use this whenever I get a car and put on a custom suspension, strange thing is it was built for GT5, yet it works for GT6's values. These values are just base values riding on how stiff you want your suspension or how soft. Again this is still a game and there could be a lot of things wrong in it, but that's not to say that it doesn't get things correct and it's simply driver who needs to learn to be smoother rather that simply being i/o with power and braking. Take your time and learn to modulate throttle and braking when you can use minute changes mid corner to keep your car planted you'll soon see how you can make the car go faster.
 
I fully agree with you, but...


SavageEvil
One thing to remember is to pretty much never talk about your real on the road experience when comparing it to the game. Unless you are a seasoned race driver your real world driving isn't going prove anything over the game simply because in real life you drive with apprehension.
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I will argue that point - I've been on track (Canadian Tire Motorsports Park a.k.a. MOSPORT) in my car. I've been on rally stages in my car. I've been on autocross courses in my car. I've raced karts. I know how cars handle between 0 km/h on ice and 200 km/h on tarmac/pavement/concrete.


There is something wrong with GT's kart physics, but everything else is pretty close to real life. Driving the cars - especially on rally stages, in my opinion - is very, very close to real life physics. I love the physics in GT6. That's why I stopped playing Forza - Forza had boring, unchanging physics that always felt sort of... wrong.


Fact is, GT6 only got a few things wrong:

1: braking zones (surprisingly, the braking zones on OEM Subaru Impreza 2.5RS brakes are very, very short)
2: kart physics
 
ITCC_Andrew
I fully agree with you, but...



I will argue that point - I've been on track (Canadian Tire Motorsports Park a.k.a. MOSPORT) in my car. I've been on rally stages in my car. I've been on autocross courses in my car. I've raced karts. I know how cars handle between 0 km/h on ice and 200 km/h on tarmac/pavement/concrete.


There is something wrong with GT's kart physics, but everything else is pretty close to real life. Driving the cars - especially on rally stages, in my opinion - is very, very close to real life physics. I love the physics in GT6. That's why I stopped playing Forza - Forza had boring, unchanging physics that always felt sort of... wrong.


Fact is, GT6 only got a few things wrong:

1: braking zones (surprisingly, the braking zones on OEM Subaru Impreza 2.5RS brakes are very, very short)
2: kart physics
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That's why I stated that unless you're a seasoned racer, everyday driving skills don't translate into video game driving. Racers driver with the notion that they can lose control of their vehicle if they aren't attentive and using this as a measuring line they focus on keeping the car under control while at the same time pushing it to be faster than the other guy. Everyday drivers have no such focus, it's get from point A to B and that's about it, braking points don't come up neither does cornering speed or balancing throttle to hold their line.

Yes something about Kart is very weird, the Karts feel rather odd but I don't Kart so I chalk it up to me being completely inexperienced in the field.

There are some issues with weight balance for the cars and it seems to affect the AI, I haven't seen human controlled cars do stoppies. I think there might be a kink somewhere since cars going up on front wheels like that mean a glitch is causing braking force to be so high that it causes the car to lift the rears which is nonsense. Anyway I will test the cars that seem prone to it and see if I can do it. Also it seems the short wheel base oddly shaped cars tend to break the aerodynamic simulation or slipping through it somehow. Reaching incredible speeds that with aerodynamics and physics should not bee possible. I am happy with the direction that GT is going but there are some things that I feel that PD really need to address like contact patch on tires, why is it we can make rims larger with no PP effect(seen) but it does affect the cars' natural balance and unsprung weight. We need to see the effect of the weight loss/gain when using changing and allowing changing front and rear rim size independently. Plus we need to increase width as well since PD got tire simulation information from Yokohama so I know that they have lots of information on increasing contact patch increases lateral grip. I'll wait to see what gets implemented as I can still enjoy the simulation as it is but I do expect them to make tuning more indepth and add more realistic options. Can't wait to see what updates bring.
 
SavageEvil
There are some issues with weight balance for the cars and it seems to affect the AI, I haven't seen human controlled cars do stoppies. I think there might be a kink somewhere since cars going up on front wheels like that mean a glitch is causing braking force to be so high that it causes the car to lift the rears which is nonsense.
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The first time I saw an AI car do a stoppie, it was in the braking zone at the top of the hill at Cote D'Azure ... braking for the first left sweeper. On the second lap I witnessed it again, then did the same in my own car. I was in a mildly prepped Fiat Abarth 500. I let off the throttle and started to brake right before the crest of the hill, and as I crossed the rear got really light and began to rotate to the right as I turned in to the left corner. The car landed with a notable bark of the tires and the rear screamed for a sec while I drove out of the slide.

I didn't look at a replay, and I was likely not as high as the AI cars, but both rears were definitely in the air for long enough to notice and really upset the car.
 
TouringBubble
The first time I saw an AI car do a stoppie, it was in the braking zone at the top of the hill at Cote D'Azure ... braking for the first left sweeper. On the second lap I witnessed it again, then did the same in my own car. I was in a mildly prepped Fiat Abarth 500. I let off the throttle and started to brake right before the crest of the hill, and as I crossed the rear got really light and began to rotate to the right as I turned in to the left corner. The car landed with a notable bark of the tires and the rear screamed for a sec while I drove out of the slide.

I didn't look at a replay, and I was likely not as high as the AI cars, but both rears were definitely in the air for long enough to notice and really upset the car.
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Lol, i was doing the italian race in Nat A there following an abarth 500 up the hill when i breaked late, he almost summersaulted.
 
TouringBubble
The first time I saw an AI car do a stoppie, it was in the braking zone at the top of the hill at Cote D'Azure ... braking for the first left sweeper. On the second lap I witnessed it again, then did the same in my own car. I was in a mildly prepped Fiat Abarth 500. I let off the throttle and started to brake right before the crest of the hill, and as I crossed the rear got really light and began to rotate to the right as I turned in to the left corner. The car landed with a notable bark of the tires and the rear screamed for a sec while I drove out of the slide.

I didn't look at a replay, and I was likely not as high as the AI cars, but both rears were definitely in the air for long enough to notice and really upset the car.
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Soft street car suspensions should not allow the car to lift it's wheels under braking and this should happen only in extreme circumstances, I have seen the AI cars rear ends lift realistically high but tires leaving the road should not happen else these cars would be road hazards. I believe PD needs to fix whatever the hell is allowing such ridiculous things to happen. I think there are some issues with short wheelbase cars in GT6 as a whole I think, it's as if there is a physics miscalculation when calculating for these diminutive length cars. PD needs to notified and they need to look into this along with the decidedly overly fast steering response from DS3 users. There is a definite issue as if the sensitivity is very high even at the neutral setting wheels turn way too fast causing some cars to handle like humming birds when cornering and countersteering when losing the rear end. They also need to fix the aerodynamics engine as that is allowing for cars to seemingly accelerate as if they are in a vacuum on Route X. Where is the thread for that anyway?
 
Beyond the suspension I'd look at the tires too. I saw a video of an Evo VIII/IX do a stoppie at the Japan circuit. No crazy elevation there, but it went nose down with the wheels a couple of feet in the air.

I own an Evo, and they are made of lead, lol. Mine weighed in at 3160 lb w/ 1/2 tank of fuel and most of the interior ... that's probably standard for an MR with basic mods. There is no tire on the planet to make even a race modded Evo stand on the front tires. Even at 2600 lb or so with 355 A6's an Evo woulnd't do that.

I've seen one car EVER do a stoppie ... and it was a classic Mini in race trim with a whole lot of tire on the front.
 
TouringBubble
I own an Evo, and they are made of lead, lol. Mine weighed in at 3160 lb w/ 1/2 tank of fuel and most of the interior ... that's probably standard for an MR with basic mods. There is no tire on the planet to make even a race modded Evo stand on the front tires. Even at 2600 lb or so with 355 A6's an Evo woulnd't do that.
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My car :mischievous: wouldn't do that either. :sly: I had to mention having the Impreza because you mention your Evo.


But, is there really any car that would do that, ever? I mean, outside of a CRC-rally prepped Yaris. :lol:


http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5550/11181916046_bb70598e61_n.jpg Not even this one would...
 
ITCC_Andrew
I'd like to re-extend my offer to give people generic tuning setups advice if desired. I can tune understeer out of FF and oversteer out of MR by reversing the same setup.
Click to expand...

So, if GT6 sells half as much as GT5, you're willing to do this for 5 million people? Generous, but not really all that helpful in the grand scheme of things.
 
Voodoovaj
So, if GT6 sells half as much as GT5, you're willing to do this for 5 million people? Generous, but not really all that helpful in the grand scheme of things.
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I can post a thread. All 5,000,000 people can access the thread. Win-win. So far, only one person has ever actually PM'd me about that.
 
It's amazing how many people are complaining about this just because they've never driven an MR car and don't know how much of a handful they can be if you're well...reckless or stupid. I've driven my buddy's AW11 MR2 before and based on the speeds I took it up to, the game's accurate enough. I didn't go nuts or anything since I didn't wanna damage it, but you get the idea. You drive it at 30 mph turning sharply into a corner, it's not gonna do anything crazy like slide, it just turns rather sharply.

Like SavageEvil said, we have no right to complain about these kinds of things, even if we own the cars unless we're racers. I can only speak for AE86's though since I've tracked it a couple times and that I live on a road that's awfully similar to a touge course, and I feel even then my opinion is pretty limited. How many of you people here have driven a rare, exotic Ferrari F40 or a Lancia Stratos? Probably none of you, so how in the hell would you know what it's like to drive on the limit?
 
guywithanAE86
How many of you people here have driven a rare, exotic Ferrari F40 or a Lancia Stratos? Probably none of you, so how in the hell would you know what it's like to drive on the limit?
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I have driven a Kart. It gives me a perspective of how a MR car handles.

I always make powerslides with it, so I can "eat" the corners faster :D.
But, sometimes, I spin it out. :dunce:

Anyways, if you (to whiners) never had experience with real cars (or maybe karts :sly:), then you would have never known how much effort you need to handle a "Beast" like that.

Capiche?


EDIT: I know that I replyed to an "old" post, but still...
 
tried using FXX stock set up no abs and... OMG its a death trap.
i'll try tuning today see if it can be improved ( default suspension is pretty loose for a car like this ). Think i'll stiffen the front but leave the rear alone as it already feels snappy.
Or is it a dog like F40?
 
Can we just stop typing walls of text and accept that some cars are more difficult to drive than others? Have you noticed there are only rear engine cars in the OP? Are people really surprised you can easily spin the Cizeta?
@Gturbo5, Do you have any idea how much torqe a (2x V8 making) 6 liter V16 makes?? You can't drive it like front engine cars.

Just close the thread, this discussion is rediculous.
 
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Yeah, please close this thread. I can't keep track of all the people dismissing this who will look like complete fools and will have to hand in their wannabe boy racer licenses when PD comes with an admission/patch which will confirm that this issue is real.
 
I'll post this here too as I feel this discussion can do with a little 'middle ground' as well.

After reading a million posts on the topic of 'broken physics' I conclude that we have no clue whether or not the physics are broken.
1. They may be broken and half of the community is able to adapt and drive MRs without spinning (we are all gamers, adapting to virtual physics is what we do :) )
2. They may be okay and (the other) half of the community can't handle MR cars.

And these are of course generalized a lot, there is a whole grey area in between.

Only analysis of telemetry (and preferably a lot more data that we will never be able to analyze) can give a conclusive answer. Until we have that I fear we have to deal with the bickering of 'elitists' and 'noobs'.
 
iLex
I'll post this here too as I feel this discussion can do with a little 'middle ground' as well.

After reading a million posts on the topic of 'broken physics' I conclude that we have no clue whether or not the physics are broken.
1. They may be broken and half of the community is able to adapt and drive MRs without spinning (we are all gamers, adapting to virtual physics is what we do :) )
2. They may be okay and (the other) half of the community can't handle MR cars.

And these are of course generalized a lot, there is a whole grey area in between.

Only analysis of telemetry (and preferably a lot more data that we will never be able to analyze) can give a conclusive answer. Until we have that I fear we have to deal with the bickering of 'elitists' and 'noobs'.
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Or just say that the ones who complain about "broken" physics don't have skills to control those virtual cars.
 
Sander 001
Yeah, please close this thread. I can't keep track of all the people dismissing this who will look like complete fools and will have to hand in their wannabe boy racer licenses when PD comes with an admission/patch which will confirm that this issue is real.
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Yin/yang - I'll address why...
iLex
I'll post this here too as I feel this discussion can do with a little 'middle ground' as well.

After reading a million posts on the topic of 'broken physics' I conclude that we have no clue whether or not the physics are broken.
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The physics are not broken but I do think a small adjustment may be needed. I don't know of course how PD are implementing their tyre physics but if I was to hazard a guess, I would say that the load sensitivity is a little too high, which is why there is a disproportionately large effect with MR cars that have a large rear weight bias. I did do a number of different tyre physics for rFactor and GTR2/GT Legends, so I'm not saying this with some pseudo-expert flippancy. Another possiblity may be that the way inertia is calculated may be wrong... one of the biggest flaws with rFactor's physics engine was the way inertia was implemented, resulting in some quite entertaining results with some suspension geometry, or if the weight was too low.
oppositelock
So there's no problem as long as you put hundreds of pounds of lead in the nose? If there was actually nothing wrong with the handling, you wouldn't need ballast, so this video really doesn't really prove anything.
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A typically glib and ill-considered post for a discussion of this type. With what I said above in mind, consider that the reason I posted this video with the settings as they are was to illustrate how it is possible, without resorting to a long winded tuning of suspension and LSD, to make one simple adjustment that leaves the car almost stock but with a better weight distribution that makes it a little friendlier. I exploited an existing feature of the game to do this. This in itself indicates that the physics aren't broken, which suggests it needs an overhaul, but that the lift-off behaviour of these cars is too extreme, which suggests adjustments can be made.
 
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