Standard cars ARE in GT6. (100% confirmed)

[MXH]

Bad news, not all will have interior views. But this could be updated later.

I suspect that the open-wheelers, LMPs and roadsters will remain having cockpit view, perhaps even slightly revamped. I do however hope that they've ditched the black silhouttes for the rest of them. That was one of the most embarrassing things I've ever experienced in a game.

He only specifically says the "bad quality" standards though, suggesting that the general standard level in GT5 will remain and the really bad ones will be fixed to that level.

That's one of my concerns that never got answered/told by him in the interview. I sincerely hope they improved them. Even the good ones had somewhat subpar textures and looked pretty bad around the wheel well area, if I recall correctly.

 

[dr_slump]

We won’t be making all the Standard cars from GT5 into Premium models, and we won’t make all of the GT5′s Standard cars fully “Premiumized”.

They'll at least convert some of them into premiums.

 

[Samus]

Whilst standards are still an issue in themselves people are still seemingly ignoring or forgetting about the bigger issue. I've seen many people say "I don't want to lose the 800 standards" but do they really mean that? What I think they mean is they don't want to lose the unique cars in those 800 that they and others will use.

Even if alll 1200 cars were pristine and premium the issue of duplicates and near duplicates still exists and that's the main reason I'm disappointing they're carrying over EVERY GT5 car for numbers sake.

Tornado, do you have the list for starters of cars that are 100% duplicates, different only in name and some don't even exist? Because whilst I agree that a blanket wipe out of the standard models would be detrimental I do wonder what the real number of cars that absolutely would be missed if they weren't in GT6. Maybe 500? 400? I don't know but people just seem fixated on the numbers and not the major problem.

Gt6 may have double the count of Forza 4 but will it be a better car list overall with more unique cars used by more people? I doubt it.

 

[diegorborges]

Whilst standards are still an issue in themselves people are still seemingly ignoring or forgetting about the bigger issue. I've seen many people say "I don't want to lose the 800 standards" but do they really mean that? What I think they mean is they don't want to lose the unique cars in those 800 that they and others will use.

Even if alll 1200 cars were pristine and premium the issue of duplicates and near duplicates still exists and that's the main reason I'm disappointing they're carrying over EVERY GT5 car for numbers sake.

Tornado, do you have the list for starters of cars that are 100% duplicates, different only in name and some don't even exist? Because whilst I agree that a blanket wipe out of the standard models would be detrimental I do wonder what the real number of cars that absolutely would be missed if they weren't in GT6. Maybe 500? 400? I don't know but people just seem fixated on the numbers and not the major problem.

Gt6 may have double the count of Forza 4 but will it be a better car list overall with more unique cars used by more people? I doubt it.

As soon as the new cars have good and global variety, I dont care to still have proper different variations for Skylines, Miatas, etc. It's a personal opinion and I am used to play GT like this. Of course, those with incorrect specifications and useless duplicates need to go. I think different versions, when well made, add fun and authenticity to the car buying process. Again, when done right. Why not have a 335i together with a M3?

 

[Samus]

Well the thing with the Miata's is that of the 33 in GT, 22 are just name/regional variations. There are only 11 different Miata's, how many of those should be included is opinion. The other 22 though, they don't need to be there. I'm sure nobody in the US is going to cry because they have to drive the car named an Eunos Roadster and not a Miata.

 

[LancerEvo7]

Well the thing with the Miata's is that of the 33 in GT, 22 are just name/regional variations. There are only 11 different Miata's, how many of those should be included is opinion. The other 22 though, they don't need to be there. I'm sure nobody in the US is going to cry because they have to drive the car named an Eunos Roadster and not a Miata.

I just had a thought after reading this: Would it be possible to change the displayed name of the car based on the user's country for the Miatas, Vitz/Yaris, etc.? It seems like it would be a simple solution.

 

[diegorborges]

Well the thing with the Miata's is that of the 33 in GT, 22 are just name/regional variations. There are only 11 different Miata's, how many of those should be included is opinion. The other 22 though, they don't need to be there. I'm sure nobody in the US is going to cry because they have to drive the car named an Eunos Roadster and not a Miata.

I agree, but about the driving position? Lhd and Rhd? Of course we are talking about standards but for some it's important.

 

[diegorborges]

I just had a thought after reading this: Would it be possible to change the displayed name of the car based on the user's country for the Miatas, Vitz/Yaris, etc.? It seems like it would be a simple solution.

Nice idea! It's a simple feature I would love to have. Its very useful!

 

[Samus]

I just had a thought after reading this: Would it be possible to change the displayed name of the car based on the user's country for the Miatas, Vitz/Yaris, etc.? It seems like it would be a simple solution.

It would and it's something I've suggested before but doing so would require PD to lower the number of cars to put on the back of the box, something they seem unwilling to do.

I agree, but about the driving position? Lhd and Rhd? Of course we are talking about standards but for some it's important.

For standards indeed it doesn't matter but even for a premium personally I don't see it as such a big deal. With so many cars throughout the game you're going to drive some LHD, some RHD. Sure if you own the car in question you may want to drive it in the same version as you own but I'm sure the experience of just driving the virtual version is enough.

I mean there are already plenty of premium cars in GT5 that are available in both positions in real life, I don't really see many people complaining because it's only available in one position on GT5.

 

[Tired Tyres]

They'll at least convert some of them into premiums.

How many though? That's the question. 50, 75, 100?

Then it's what standards they upgrade to premium. This is what I hope for.

1. Anything post GT4 is due for an upgrade.

2. The "cup" cars (Lupo, Beetle, Clio etc) One car from each and then the near mythical livery editor can do the rest.

3. The classic cars from the Japanese, European and American classic car events. These 60's cars have beautiful shapes to them and would respond best to premium quality.

4. Multi generation cars like the Celica, Supra and MR2. I'd like a mark 2 MX5 or two as well.

 

[Samus]

Ok I found the list, all credit to Tornado on this. These are the standard cars you could remove and it be essentially no different because the exact same cars will still exist under another name. Obviously he's chosen one or the other to remove, Lutecia and leaving the Clio's for example. It could be the other way around but it won't make much difference.

S Acura DN-X Concept ’02
S Acura HSC Concept ’04
S Aston Martin DB9 Coupe ’03
S BMW M5 ’05
S Daihatsu Cuore TR-XX Avanzato R (J) ’97
S Daihatsu SIRION CX 2WD (J) ’98
S Daihatsu SIRION CX 4WD (J) ’98
S Daihatsu SIRION X4 (J) ’00
S Dodge Viper GTS-R Team Oreca Race Car ’00
S Fiat 500 F ’65
S Ford Ford GT ’05
S Ford Ford GT ’05 (No Stripe)
S Ford Ford GT LM Race Car Spec II
S Ford Mustang GT ’05
S Honda CIVIC SiR-II (EG) ’91
S Honda CIVIC SiR-II (EG) ’92
S Honda CIVIC SiR-II (EG) ’93
S Honda CIVIC TYPE R (EK) ’98
S Honda JAZZ 1.4 DSi SE Sport ’01
S Honda S2000 (EU) ’99
S Honda S2000 (EU) ’01
S Honda S2000 (EU) ’03
S Honda S2000 (US) ’99
S Honda S2000 (US) ’01
S Honda S2000 (US) ’04
S Honda S2000 Type V (EU) ’00
S Honda S2000 Type V (EU) ’01
S Honda S2000 Type V (US) ’00
S Honda S2000 Type V (US) ’01
S Hyundai Coupe FX ’01
S Hyundai Tuscani ’01
S Infiniti G20 ’90
S Lexus GS 300 ’91
S Lexus GS 300 ’00
S Lexus GS 300 Vertex Edition (J) ’00
S Lexus IS 200 ’98
S Lexus IS 200 (J) ’98
S Lexus IS 300 Sport Cross ’01
S Lexus SC 300 ’97
S Lexus SC 430 (EU) ’01
S Lexus SC 430 (US) ’01
S Mazda Cosmo Sport (L10A) ’67
S Mazda Cosmo Sport (L10B) ’68
S Mazda Mazda2 ’03
S Mazda Mazda6 5-door ’03
S Mazda Mazda6 Concept ’01
S Mazda Mazda6 Touring Car
S Mazda MX-5 (NA) ’89
S Mazda MX-5 1.8 RS (NB, J) ’98
S Mazda MX-5 1600 NR-A (NB, J) ’04
S Mazda MX-5 1800 RS (NB, J) ’00
S Mazda MX-5 1800 RS (NB, J) ’04
S Mazda MX-5 J-Limited (NA, J) ’91
S Mazda MX-5 J-Limited II (NA, J) ’93
S Mazda MX-5 Miata (NA) ’89
S Mazda MX-5 Miata 1.8 RS (NB, J) ’98
S Mazda MX-5 Miata 1600 NR-A (NB, J) ’04
S Mazda MX-5 Miata 1800 RS (NB, J) ’00
S Mazda MX-5 Miata 1800 RS (NB, J) ’04
S Mazda MX-5 Miata J-Limited (NA, J) ’91
S Mazda MX-5 Miata J-Limited II (NA, J) ’93
S Mazda MX-5 Miata SR-Limited (NA, J) ’97
S Mazda MX-5 Miata S-Special Type I (NA, J) ’95
S Mazda MX-5 Miata VR-Limited (NA, J) ’95
S Mazda MX-5 Miata V-Special Type II (NA, J) ’93
S Mazda MX-5 SR-Limited (NA, J) ’97
S Mazda MX-5 S-Special Type I (NA, J) ’95
S Mazda MX-5 VR-Limited (NA, J) ’95
S Mazda MX-5 V-Special Type II (NA, J) ’93
S Mazda Protegé ’02
S Mazda RX-7 GT-LIMITED (FC, J) ’85
S Mazda RX-7 GT-X (FC, J) ’90
S Mazda RX-7 Type R (FD, J) ’91
S Mazda RX-7 Type R (FD, J) ’93
S Mazda RX-7 Type RS (FD, J) ’96
S Mazda RX-7 Type R-S (FD, J) ’95
S Mazda RX-7 Type RZ (FD, J) ’92
S Mazda RX-7 Type RZ (FD, J) ’93
S Mazda RX-7 Type RZ (FD, J) ’95
S Mazda RX-7 Type RZ (FD, J) ’96
S Mercedes-Benz SLR McLaren ’03
S Mine’s BNR34 SKYLINE GT-R V-spec N1 base ’00
S Mitsubishi 3000GT MR (J) ’95
S Mitsubishi 3000GT MR (J) ’98
S Mitsubishi 3000GT SL (J) ’95
S Mitsubishi 3000GT SL (J) ’96
S Mitsubishi 3000GT SL (J) ’98
S Mitsubishi 3000GT SR (J) ’95
S Mitsubishi 3000GT SR (J) ’96
S Mitsubishi 3000GT SR (J) ’98
S Mitsubishi 3000GT VR-4 (J) ’98
S Mitsubishi 3000GT VR-4 Turbo (J) ’95
S Mitsubishi 3000GT VR-4 Turbo (J) ’96
S Mitsubishi 3000GT VR-4 Turbo (J) ’98
S Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution VI GSR TOMMI MAKINEN EDITION ’00
S Nissan 200SX ’96
S Nissan 200SX (S14) ’96
S Nissan 240SX ’96
S Nissan 240SX (S14) ’96
S Nissan 240ZG (HS30) ’71
S Nissan 300ZX 2by2 (Z32) ’98
S Nissan 300ZX 2seater (Z32) ’89
S Nissan 300ZX 2seater (Z32) ’98
S Nissan 350Z (Z33, EU) ’03
S Nissan 350Z (Z33, US) ’03
S Nissan 350Z Concept LM Race Car
S Nissan 350Z Roadster (Z33, EU) ’03
S Nissan 350Z Roadster (Z33, US) ’03
S Nissan Fairlady Z Version ST (Z33 Option Wheel) ’02
S Nissan MICRA ’03
S Nissan PRIMERA 20V (EU) ’01
S Nissan SKYLINE GT-R Special Color Midnight Purple II (R34) ’99
S Nissan SKYLINE GT-R Special Color Midnight Purple III (R34) ’00
S Nissan SILVIA K’s (S13) ’91
S Nissan SILVIA spec-R AERO (S15) ’99
S Renault Sport Lutecia Renault Sport 2.0 16V ’02
S Renault Sport Lutecia Renault Sport Trophy V6 24V Race Car ’00
S Renault Sport Lutecia Renault Sport V6 24V ’01
S Renault Sport Lutecia Renault Sport V6 Phase2 ’03
S Scion xA ’03
S Scion xB ’03
S Toyota MR2 Spyder ’99
S Toyota MR2 Spyder (6MT) ’02
S Toyota Yaris F (J) ’99
S Toyota Yaris RS 1.5 (J) ’00
S Toyota Yaris RS Turbo (J) ’02
S Toyota Yaris U Euro Sport Edition (J) ’00
S Vauxhall Astra Super Touring Car ’00
S Vauxhall Calibra Super Touring Car ’94
S Vauxhall Corsa Comfort 1.4 ’01
S Vauxhall Tigra 1.6i ’99
S Vauxhall Vectra 3.2 V6 ’03
S Vauxhall VX220 ’00
S Vauxhall VX220 Turbo ’00

134, unless I screwed up somewhere. A distressing amount of them with incorrect performance, because PD didn't bother to do anything beyond Copy-Paste. And that's being very generous in spots, for the most part leaving out year and trim variations except the particularly blatant ones (plus leaving out a couple 350Zs, where I can't really any info regarding whether PD didn't just make the things up like they did the Miatas). Someone who knows more about what Honda did to the S2000 and NSX or Nissan to the Skyline over the years can probably comment on them more definitively, and it would probably drive things up quite a bit (150+?).

So that's already nearly 150 down just removing the absolute, 100% dupe cars. You could lose a lot more removing the very close dupes.

 

[AleksandarSRB]

They must update lmp, group C, GT1 race car and rally car to the premium, also DTM and some JGTC car. For me it's more important than road car's, of course some road car's like XJ 220, S7, Zonda, M3 CLS should be update...

 

[NCRthree]

Not having a cockpit view at all is very bad. Even with the black cut out it can be immersive. Going back to bumper/hood view is lame. There's no visual difference from one car to the next looking out.

It's great for the guys who want nicer photos and cool body kits or whatever but stinks for those of us who prefer a more immersive driving experience.

 

[Encyclopedia]

Well the thing with the Miata's is that of the 33 in GT, 22 are just name/regional variations. There are only 11 different Miata's, how many of those should be included is opinion. The other 22 though, they don't need to be there. I'm sure nobody in the US is going to cry because they have to drive the car named an Eunos Roadster and not a Miata.

Yes they really went overboard with the duplicates in GT5. It's a really transparent attempt to inflate the car number. They shouldn't have to do that.

Not having a cockpit view at all is very bad. Even with the black cut out it can be immersive. Going back to bumper/hood view is lame. There's no visual difference from one car to the next looking out.

It's great for the guys who want nicer photos and cool body kits or whatever but stinks for those of us who prefer a more immersive driving experience.

I agree. The black cut out was ok, and I think they should keep it and add a hood infront to improve it.

 

[maxpontiac]

2:55-4:15

All cars can enter photo mode and have custom parts. Interesting.

"ALL cars will have custom parts".

 

[bigspleen]

The hate towards the standard cars is to funny. I'm actually amused by it now. I know for sure I'll be enjoying the improved standard cars, so please, so me your anger standard dislikers.

HAte? No it's disappointment that this great franchise is falling behind. Some people have standards, you don't good for you.

 

[dr_slump]

HAte? No it's disappointment that this great franchise is falling behind. Some people have standards, you don't good for you.

Have or hate, that's the question.

 

[TopGearFTW]

I'm actually OK with this. Aside from a few stand-out examples (Suzuki Alto being one, and the Hommell Berlinette) I wasn't really bothered by the standard/premium divide. I would've preferred all premium obviously, but the standards didn't affect me really.

One thing I would say though, is that while I can appreciate PD want to keep the huge collection of cars that were in GT4 as a foundation of sorts, and continue to build off of that, what it does mean now is we have a lot of completely obsolete cars that probably don't need to be in the game any more. You know, cars that are too old to be considered recent, but not old enough to warrant inclusion as a classic. I mean, would anyone really miss, say, the Citroen Xantia? Or a decade-old Audi A2? Unless it's your own real-life car and you like it for that reason, I can't think they'd be missed terribly.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for a higher number of cars, even if it is a bit of a misleading number with all the duplicates, I just feel there's some that should be left by the wayside by now.

 

[Samus]

I have no problem whatsoever with people who enjoy/don't mind the standards, that's up to them. What I do have a problem with is the people who refuse to acknowledge that it is a legitimate issue that other people do have a problem with. As I say if you like them then good for you but PS2 cars in a PS3 game is a legitimate issue that people are perfectly reasonable in taking issue with. Simple as that. It does NOT make them "haters" or any other derogatory term.

 

[bigspleen]

I have no problem whatsoever with people who enjoy/don't mind the standards, that's up to them. What I do have a problem with is the people who refuse to acknowledge that it is a legitimate issue that other people do have a problem with. As I say if you like them then good for you but PS2 cars in a PS3 game is a legitimate issue that people are perfectly reasonable in taking issue with. Simple as that.

Exactly, it is easy to see why its a big issue, people want consistency. Everything in Gt5 was all over the place. it was a mixed bag. The PD defense force here is nauseating.

We don't need 1200 cars, 4-500 premiums and ditch the standards. 99% of people who play GT never even use 100 cars. It a shameless attempt to pad the car count. No interior view makes it even worse.

It drops the quality of the product, makes for an inconsistent game. GT5 was really inconsistent and they don't seem to be learning.

 

[Exorcet]

Then PD should let you "turn off" standards. If they are in the game, but can't be seen, it shouldn't bother the people who don't like them. It could work online too. GT40 model is replaced with Mark IV, etc.

It is perfectly fine to not like the standard models, but it would just be a huge shame to lose all those cars. People bring up the quantity/quality argument against standards, but the way I see it quality in car selection is what standard gives while causing a not very important lose in the quantity of average polygons. I don't like the lack of a cockpit view, but then again GT's (at least GT5's) cockpit didn't give the most realistic field of view.

Any for GT6, as it is, I don't think the standards are a big deal. It was produced quickly compared to GT5 and shares some things with its predecessor. For those worrying about the future, I wouldn't take it as a sign that standard cars will exist forever.

We don't need 1200 cars, 4-500 premiums and ditch the standards. 99% of people who play GT never even use 100 cars. It a shameless attempt to pad the car count. No interior view makes it even worse.

We don't need 400 cars either, or 10. It's not car count padding, it is genuine content. The standard cars drive just like the premiums do. What the average people who play GT do is not all that important. If we assume it's true, is it the same 100 cars every time?

I'd also place a lot of blame for small garages and underused cars on GT Mode, which basically locks away 95% of the game from you for no reason.

 

[PirateThom]

I think PD pretty much sealed standards for GT6 by including them in GT5.

In GT5, they went for the thousand cars marketing point... they're then in a situation where they can't release a game on the same platform where the car count goes down.

The issue stems to GT5 and GT6 suffers for that choice. Personally, I don't mind them, but some of them are attrociously bad quality and that was a bigger issue than them being in the game.

 

[RacerPaul]

I'd much rather there were no standards at all, they're manky

400 properly rendered, ie 'premium' cars would be plenty to cover all the bases imo

As mentioned somewhere above, standards reduce the overall quality of the product

 

[JackC8]

I'm really happy to see they made the Countach a premium. Hopefully they've done the same with the Veyron and those Pagani's that were in the UCD.

I don't really mind the standards all that much. I just wish they'd fix those hexagonal wheelwells, that's downright ugly.

 

[stiggygonzalez]

Kaz's translator said they are ...'researching the improvement of sound everyday'
That's reasuring to know,at least they see or hear rather that sounds need improving.
EDIT:I don't mind'standard'cars in GT6 because then I can appreciate how great the premiums look.
Kaz said they'll look better so even if they look between 20-40% better I don't mind and with custom parts that's good for me.

 

[analog]

I have no problem whatsoever with people who enjoy/don't mind the standards, that's up to them. What I do have a problem with is the people who refuse to acknowledge that it is a legitimate issue that other people do have a problem with. As I say if you like them then good for you but PS2 cars in a PS3 game is a legitimate issue that people are perfectly reasonable in taking issue with. Simple as that.

Absolutely, now it also seems that the inconsistency won't be made clear by labelling anymore.
What does that mean? All Standard cars also available new in the dealerships without knowing beforehand if an interior view is available or not?

What I also hate is the argument of removing their favourite cars by removing Standards, I don't deny anyone their favourite cars (as in real life counterparts), I just wish that a lot of those became Premium as well so people like me who use cockpit view can enjoy them equally (or is that selfish?).
Even though obviously a lot of cars won't make it but that's just a natural consequence as that's how it's always been (al lot of GT2 cars disappeared in GT3 and GT4).

But it is as it is (don't feel like doing GT5 style ranting again ), even though I didn't expect it before reading they'd include 1200 cars (yeh..).
I just hope there's still a separate garage (or separate garage option) and plenty of new Premium material (including replaced Standards) for me to enjoy.

I think PD pretty much sealed standards for GT6 by including them in GT5.

In GT5, they went for the thousand cars marketing point... they're then in a situation where they can't release a game on the same platform where the car count goes down.

I think you have a point there, if you indeed don't care about overall consistency, interior view (and judging by the responses here alone that's a lot) nor care much for new features/tracks that GT6 includes but just want an awful amount of cars, then they'll perhaps stick with GT5 or will even buy (a discount) GT5 over GT6.
Ensuring GT6 will include even more will take care of that problem.

 

[opelman]

they really should loose the dublicated cars. One standard and same car premiun. There is no reason for this. Loose 30 skylines and mx7. would be too diffucult.

 

[SavageEvil]

So we have people wanting more premiums at the expense of losing 800 unique cars, sounds like irrational girlfriend logic(you know the stuff an angry woman says because she just wants things her way). Yes that's right PD's been sitting around twiddling their thumbs while GT6 coded itself and two days before the show they shoved the standard cars in there to say we have 1,200 cars .
No one is forcing you to buy or play the game, in fact no one is forcing you to come on GTP and cry for the millionth time about things that you know for a fact will not change before this game launches, do yourself and everyone else a favor and just avoid posting. Spend so much time complaining, yet you haven't the slightest idea about what goes on over at their offices. No one compliments the fact that standard cars started out ugly and as time went on got better and more integrated with GT5, nope just a long list of complaints. Kaz knowing that they wouldn't be able to redo all 800 unique cars to premium quality settled for at least making them functionally equal to the premium cars...why is this not looked at as an achievement? I can guarantee that people can find fault with that with responses like "should have left standards out..." or "they can outsource..." to which I say I welcome all those unique cars and PD by far have the most accurate 3D modeling of cars in console development, all their premium cars are damn near photorealistic compared to their real life counterparts(something another famous game cannot boast, you can deny it all you want it's true).
I am thoroughly baffled, I just can't understand a driver wanting less cars to choose from because he'd rather have pretty cars so he can boast to his buddy about how many pretty cars there are. It seems that this is what the hate for standard really revolve around to me.
PD said that they'll add cars through DLC, so that means brand new cars and upgraded cars to premium, we'll have people complaining that the converted cars should be free or something dumb like that...save it, you don't do work for free so why the hell should they? Hopefully they give you enough premium cars that you can be satisfied with your odd fetish, as for me I welcome all cars. I'm a glass half full type of guy, it's much easier on the heart to just relax and enjoy what you have rather than moan and groan about things that your emotional outbursts won't change ever.
I'll probably get some replies to this text with defense of hate of standard cars dragging down visuals or something else as odd as that. Seriously if that's the extent of it, why even get GT6 on PS3 you can grab Project Cars on PC along with ACR on PC and they have really pretty visuals and allow for great physics and wheels. GT6 on PS3 standard cars are cast in stone, you aren't going to change that no matter how much you yelp, holler, scream, rant, rave, hold your breath, turn red or fume until your eyes turn red and snot comes out your nose, accept it and you'll definitely have a more enjoyable time in general.
Do we really need your rival system friends to co-sign on things like who has the prettiest cars? It's the weekend, it's a game and both of them you can choose to enjoy or not. I'm not saying you can't complain, but 3 years running and no one cares about the efforts done to lessen the impact of difference between the cars that is the sticking point for me, it's incredibly annoying and considering we haven't seen a single standard car decked out in visuals upgrades, why are there complaints with no proof to support your position?

 

[Samus]

So we have people wanting more premiums at the expense of losing 800 unique cars

Let me stop you right there. Because that isn't correct at all.

As for the rest of it, it's nothing to do with showing off and everything to do with consistency across the game.

 

[SavageEvil]

Let me stop you right there. Because that isn't correct at all.

As for the rest of it, it's nothing to do with showing off and everything to do with consistency across the game.

I read through the thread there are folks actually spouting that, I didn't make it up. Just go back a few pages and you'll see it yourself.