Stock car race comparison/challenge

[Austin343]

Thank you for your (long) response 👍, but I guess I'm not making myself clear. Yes, that's all well and good with the R2 or R3 tires on any race car, but nowhere in the first post are S3 tires mentioned as being legal for anything but race cars, yet even people like Smallhorses are using them when they're the stock tires on the car (RUFs and tuner cars). The first post says only that race cars can equip R3s, R2s, R1s, S3s, S2s, or S1s, that rally cars can equip only R1s, S3s, S2s, or S1s (because they come with R1s), and that all other cars can only equip S2s or S1s. Do you see what I mean now? Are we just making an unspoken exception, as we've done with the Laguna enduro and dirst and snow races, for the cars that have S3 tires as default, or do we need to revise the written rules to include this particular case?

Edit: An update to the Nurburgring 24 hours. I tried the actual race for twenty minutes against a lineup with 4 JGTCs and an Alfa, after running out of patience trying to find the one I was looking for, and discovered that tire life will affect the race quite a bit. I could not manage to make the tires last longer than three laps on either car I tried (350Z, NSX) and that definitely limits the options. The 350Z is too slow to beat the Celica and would have a tough fight to win against any set of opponents. The NSX would have a pretty good race with the Celica and would easily beat all the others. But, the NSX requires a lineup without the Spoon S2000, with the possible exception of having the four strongest JGTCs (in terms of A-spec value) in the lineup as well. And it's already hard enough to find a lineup with no touring cars, which by my calculations (for anyone who remembers probability, (7C5)/(15C5) - Smallhorses, is this right?) comes up once in every 143 lineups, or about once an hour. Eliminating the Spoon makes it over 3.5 times harder, or 3+ hours! And this all assumes the lineups are random, and PD seems to have de-randomized them even beyond the fact that they appear in a specified order every time. Needless to say, back to the drawing board...

Edit 2: I had much more success on Sarthe I. The Panoz Esperante with R1/R2 tires and this setup (minus the R4 tires and turbo, of course, and with TCS at 1) will win for 200 points against a lineup with no Group Cs and no GT1 cars. It's the best setup I found for the car, although it obviously still understeers, and any additional understeer caused by the rear R2 tires is more than made up for by the vastly improved third gear traction. I have to pit every 7 laps versus the AI's 8, and it's definitely a close race, but it's definitely winnable, even avoiding putting four tires on the not-quite-tarmac sections behind rumble strips.

Edit 3: Returning to Nurburgring, the NSX '01 on S2s is capable of beating the Celica, but that would be hard enough that I wouldn't want to endure the stress for 24 hours. Again, it handily beats all the others, but that pushes up the time required to find a lineup without the Celica to over three hours, and I don't want to do that either. I suppose I'll just end up taking out the Opera S2000 against Smallhorses' lineup, with the A4 and M3 GTR, which should be doable but not too easy.

 

[alhajoth]

Here are the two videos I promised, sorry it's taken so long.
Tour of Tahiti easy, normal and reverse using a MX-5 RS '00 against a Celica '91.
The first race has some AI contact, I hit his rear-end as I cross behind him, which leads to another contact in the first hairpin. Still within the rules of this thread as I see it though, and it would have been easily avoidable anyways..
The reverse run is clean I think.

 

[Austin343]

So smooth... The difference is how you take the hairpins, which is far better than I do. Interesting names of the replays, by the way! I'm honored to have you name a replay after me...

 

[alhajoth]

So smooth... The difference is how you take the hairpins, which is far better than I do. Interesting names of the replays, by the way! I'm honored to have you name a replay after me...

I learned the hard way to protect the inside of the hairpins when I ran the RX-7 in the hard races. Those insane 80's rally monsters will smack you silly if you give them an opening..


Some of the races I've done during the holidays:

Beginners Hall: Sunday cup Race 1 - Autumn Ring Mini
Car: Daihatsu Move SR-XX 2WD '97 (used, no oil) / FF / 57HP / 760kg / 13.3kg/HP / 200 A-spec

Following Austin's suggestion, this car is quite useful in the special conditions hall:
Special Conditions : Umbria Rally : Hard difficulty
Car: Toyota Superautobacs Apex MR-S '00 (df(15/21) / MR / 301HP / 1125kg / 3.7kg/HP / vs. Renault Maxi Rally '85/ 123 A-spec


And confirming the work of several others, while adding the Ring to the list:
Extreme Hall: GT All Stars Race 1 - High Speed Ring
Car: Chaparral 2J Race Car '70 (R3 tires) / MR / 684HP / 821kg / 1.2kg/HP / 200 A-spec

Extreme Hall: GT All Stars Race 2 - Fuji
Car: Chaparral 2J Race Car '70 (R3 tires) / MR / 684HP / 821kg / 1.2kg/HP / 200 A-spec

Extreme Hall: GT All Stars Race 3 - Laguna Seca
Car: Chaparral 2J Race Car '70 (R3 tires) / MR / 684HP / 821kg / 1.2kg/HP / 200 A-spec

Extreme Hall: GT All Stars Race 4 - Autumn Ring
Car: Chaparral 2J Race Car '70 (R3 tires) / MR / 684HP / 821kg / 1.2kg/HP / 200 A-spec

Extreme Hall: GT All Stars Race 5 - Test Course
Car: Chaparral 2J Race Car '70 (R3 tires) / MR / 684HP / 821kg / 1.2kg/HP / 200 A-spec

Extreme Hall: GT All Stars Race 6 - Grand Valley
Car: Chaparral 2J Race Car '70 (R3 tires) / MR / 684HP / 821kg / 1.2kg/HP / 200 A-spec

Extreme Hall: GT All Stars Race 7 - Suzuka
Car: Chaparral 2J Race Car '70 (R3 tires) / MR / 684HP / 821kg / 1.2kg/HP / 200 A-spec

Extreme Hall: GT All Stars Race 8 - Infineon
Car: Chaparral 2J Race Car '70 (R3 tires) / MR / 684HP / 821kg / 1.2kg/HP / 200 A-spec

Extreme Hall: GT All Stars Race 9 - Sarthe
Car: Chaparral 2J Race Car '70 (R3 tires) / MR / 684HP / 821kg / 1.2kg/HP / 200 A-spec

Extreme Hall: GT All Stars Race 10 - Nurburgring
Car: Chaparral 2J Race Car '70 (R3 tires) / MR / 684HP / 821kg / 1.2kg/HP / 200 A-spec

 

[Dotini]

That's an impressive achievement, winning with the Chaparral 2J at the Nurburgring, alhajoth. Do you have a particular setup that you could share with us?

 

[Open Addict]

The rules should be clear. You can post any result you got, but it will only make the list if the car is stock. No ballast is allowed because I don't want to complicate things.
When viewing the list, you'll have a reference to what we know is possible to do, if a car makes 196 A-spec points, you'll know that by adding some ballast, or putting on N-tires you'll make 200.
This list is ment to be the reference, therefore the rulez.

As for tires you can use the stock tires or harder tires (of the same class), that wil be S tires for all cars but Race cars.

If you get i.e 146p stock, and 189p with N2 tires, feel free to post both results, and It would be most welcome if you post the line-up of other cars as well.

It will also help if you win a race with a used car with no oil change, that you state that there's been no oil change.

The most accurate HP is found at the "valuation" option in the garage (where you can sell your car). This is the desireable entry.

And for some cars being race cars, and able to alter suspension, gear ratios, downforce etc. that is allowed, but only if you post the settings.

@Austin

Found this early in the thread, Post #69 by the rule maker. (Hispeed)

My opinion of these rules is that if a car comes stock with S3's you can use them. Because these are STOCK. However if a car comes stock with S2's you can not go to S3's on it, But you can go to S1's if you like.

I am Currently on a spending spree. Increasing my garage from 250 cars to 500. Now I will have more to choose from. will try to have every car, as soon as I can raise the 60+ million that I still need. But hey that means more raicing for me

 

[tizocspeed8]

Best way to raise that 60 million would be to do Deutsche Touring Car Meistershaft. Wins for five races is 15000 each and championship prize money is 50000. Plus you get the Mercedes CLK-GTR whihc you can sell for 743,xxx . 900,000 in about half an hour. Even quicker with B-spec

 

[Open Addict]

To raise my 60 million, I think I will keep doing stock races at El Capitan / New York or Laguna Seca, also trying very hard not to use B-spec because he stinks.

Although I might run the DTM myself a couple of times for something different.

 

[alhajoth]

That's an impressive achievement, winning with the Chaparral 2J at the Nurburgring, alhajoth. Do you have a particular setup that you could share with us?

I'm not much of a tuner, I usually just run with the stock configurations on all cars, but I did find the Chap a bit of a handful at the ring, so I tried making some changes to the suspension. I did no real testing, just ran the race with the original settings, found it a painful experience, reset the console (I save between all races in a championship) and tried again with the following settings:

Spring rate: 10.8/12.8
Ride height: 85/85
Damper(Bounce): 6/6
Damper(Rebound): 8/8
Camber: 2.0/1.0
Toe: 0/0
Stabiliser: 6/6

Only the top two or three are changed. I thought these settings were sligthly better than stock, but I'm sure a better tuner can improve them even further.

As for the race, the AI struggles on its second lap due to worn tires, so I won by 40 seconds or so. It was just a matter of keeping 100% focus, and driving VERY carefully, braking cautiously and letting up on the straights.

 

[RVDNuT374]

I didn't beat Smallhorses' record for this race, but I raised my own best score by 7 A-spec points. 👍

Professional Hall: World Classics- all races

Car: '70 Mitsubishi Galant GTO MR (used, no oil) / FR / 111 hp / 980 kg / 8.83 kg/hp / 84 A-spec pts. against the 8th lineup after reset

 

[Austin343]

Too bad, I didn't see this car had been used for this event already. But I did win all the races, which indeed has not been done. The horsepower values are all from the garage screen, because they're not listed on the sell screen.

Extreme Hall: Real Circuit Tours Races 1, 2, 4, 5, and 6
Car: Nissan GT-R Concept LM Race Car '02 (R3 tires, no oil change) / FR / 626HP / 1100kg / 1.8kg/HP / 200 A-spec points

These five were pretty easy, but it took a while to find a suitable lineup for Suzuka (since the LMPs, 787B, and 905 don't pit in NTSC), and I only won Motegi by three seconds over the Sauber.

Extreme Hall: Real Circuit Tours Races 3 and 8
Car: Nissan GT-R Concept LM Race Car '02 (R2 tires, no oil change) / FR / 626HP / 1100kg / 1.8kg/HP / 200 A-spec points

I was concerned about tire wear for these two races and so put on the harder tires, but I think R3s would have lasted. Both won handily once I found a Nurburgring lineup without an LMP, 787B, or 905, since they are far more reluctant than the others to perform nice pirouettes on their second lap.

Extreme Hall: Real Circuit Tours Race 7 - Sarthe
Car: Nissan GT-R Concept LM Race Car '02 (R3 tires, oil changed) / FR / 657HP / 1100kg / 1.7kg/HP / 200 A-spec points

This was fairly difficult. I thought initially that it might be impossible, before I realized that the fastest Group C cars pit on lap 2, and everyone else's tires fall off on the last lap. I still won by only a quarter second with a last-turn pass of the Bentley, with the R92CP in hot pursuit.

I was also planning on using the Zonda for GT All Stars, but that's been done too! Maybe I should have switched and used the Zonda here and the GT-R at All Stars.

 

[Austin343]

It's a relatively popular car choice for the event, but I don't think it's been used quite this way before...

Professional Hall: GT World Championship Races 1, 4, 5, 6, 8, 9, and 10
Car: Nissan R390 GT1 Race Car '98 (Black used, no oil, R2 tires, maximum downforce) / MR / 712HP / 1000kg / 1.4kg/HP / 200 A-spec points

Professional Hall: GT World Championship Races 3 and 7
Car: Nissan R390 GT1 Race Car '98 (Black used, no oil, R3/R2 tires, maximum downforce) / MR / 712HP / 1000kg / 1.4kg/HP / 200 A-spec points

Professional Hall: GT World Championship Race 2 - Twin Ring Motegi Super Speedway
Car: Nissan R390 GT1 Race Car '98 (Black used, no oil, R3 tires, maximum downforce) / MR / 712HP / 1000kg / 1.4kg/HP / 200 A-spec points

all vs. the famous Group C lineup, #6. I was amazed to be offered 200 points for this car on R3s with maximum downforce, and it sure helped.

Races 3-9 were easy. The rest were not. I won Tokyo by less than a second over a non-pitting 787B, and Sarthe (which, in hindsight, could have been run on R3s, but whatever) only by blocking on all the long straight sections, winning by a couple seconds only because the non-pitting Sauber spun out from right behind me at Maison Blanche. All of those races were clean, save for occasional detrimental wall contacts and idiotic AI ramming me (especially at Sarthe!), and Grand Valley was 100% clean. 👍

But Super Speedway was really hard to get right. On R2s, it had neither sufficient speed nor tire life, and the unused version of the car on R1s was just too slow, even without a pit stop. On R3s, I could essentially match the pace of the others, and my tire life was good enough for one stop, but somehow the AI seemed to take less time in their pit stops than me , and I would have to deal with the freshly pitted cars a couple laps after my stop. They would slow me down, and in one aborted race, the Jaguar missed the pits and cut down right in front of me into the pit wall. Anyway, I only won this run because the leading Sauber stayed out too long and missed the pits, and I made a last-corner pass on the 88C-V to steal the win.

 

[RVDNuT374]

Beginner's Hall: MR Challenge- New York

Car: Lotus Elise '00 / MR / 120HP / 714kg / 6.0kg/HP / 153 A-spec pts. against this lineup:

1. '00 Renault Clio Renault Sport V6 24V
2. '97 Toyota MR2 GT-S
3. '87 Lotus Espirit Turbo HC
4. '00 Opel Speedster
5. '97 Honda NSX Type S Zero

Beginner's Hall: MR Challenge- Fuji Speedway 90's

Car: Lotus Elise '00 / MR / 120HP / 714kg / 6.0kg/HP / 147 A-spec pts. against this lineup:

1. '00 Lotus Elise
2. '01 Lotus Elise Type 72
3. '97 Honda NSX Type S Zero
4. '02 Honda NSX Type R
5. '97 Toyota MR2 GT-S

Having the 2 Elises start on the front row is absolutely critical to have any chance at getting by the NSX's before turn 1. After getting the lead, heavy blocking is required to keep them behind you or else they'll disappear into the distance.

 

[Austin343]

Well, this is interesting. I think I will abandon my plans for running a fully modified Cien at Sarthe II 24 hours and instead go for this, which seems much more authentic, somehow, in that I'm using a Group C vs. Group Cs, among other things.

The "this" is a Peugeot 905 with R1 tires and minimum downforce, which will just barely manage 200 points against the strongest AI lineup (R92CP, R89C, 88C-V, C9, XJR-9 - thankfully it appears pretty quickly). It would actually be a surprisingly easy race considering the car's slow shifting, wheelspin, and relative lack of power, and could be won extremely cleanly. The other "authentic" thing is that I am able to turn off TCS and have it not hinder my lap times much, although I do sort of evade the wheelspin problem by keeping it in fourth gear or higher through the whole course (!).

You could use some rather interesting strategy, too. I didn't test either of these possibilities thoroughly, but it appears that it might be possible to run ten full laps on fuel without drafting help, and maybe even to do two stints on one set of front tires! (These may be mutually exclusive, however.) I think it would be a fairly fun race to do as cleanly as possible, and have it feel somewhat like a real Le Mans race.

Edit: Unfortunately, neither of the above work. Oh well. It would still be a good race, and would keep you on your toes (not quite in the same way as Smallhorses' loss at Sarthe I 24 hour, though!), because the car will wheelspin in fourth gear if you hit a curb or bump, leading very quickly to a spinout if you're not careful. That's another thing the real Le Mans drivers have to deal with, too!

Edit 2: Ah, I finally found a road car on sports tires that can win Nurburgring 24 hours: the BMW M5. According to WildCobraZ28's excellent table of values, it will just barely yield 200 A-Spec points against Smallhorses' lineup of M3 GTR, A4, Calibra, Falken, Silvia. It would be a pretty close race, too!... actually, upon further calculation, an extremely close race, and that assumes the S1s last three laps. Damn. Hopefully it's not back to the drawing board yet again... I guess I'll try this out on Saturday and see what comes of a six lap test. If it doesn't work, I think I'm giving up on the idea. Too bad; it was an interesting thought, but I suppose tuner cars are really needed to win for 200 on S tires.

Edit 3: Very good. The M5 does work, and by a bigger margin than I expected. 👍 It is offered 200 points against that lineup, the S1s last three laps (barely), and the car can do flying laps in the 7'14s and lower. Even being much more careful to not have offs than I was in my six lap test, you might end up with a cushion of a full lap by the end of the race. I'm definitely using this car for this race now that I know it works well. Now I just need to decide whether the Panoz is a smart choice for Sarthe I, because chassis wear may make me lose that race in the second half, as close as it is right now.

 

[RVDNuT374]

Beginner's Hall: Lightweight K Cup- Motorland

Car: Honda Beat '91 (used, no oil) / MR / 58HP / 760kg / 13.1kg/HP/ 81 A-spec pts. against the following lineup:

1. '89 Mitsubishi Minica Dangan ZZ
2. '89 Nissan PAO
3. '91 Honda Beat
4. '02 Suzuki Kei Works
5. '92 Mazda Autozam AZ-1


Beginner's Hall: Lightweight K Cup-Tsukuba

Car: Honda Beat '91 (used, no oil) / MR / 58HP / 760kg / 13.1kg/HP/ 95 A-spec pts. against the following lineup:

1. '98 Suzuki Wagon R RR
2. '02 Suzuki Kei Works
3. '97 Daihatsu Mira TR-XX Avanzato R
4. '02 Daihatsu Copen Active Top
5. '95 Suzuki Cappuccino (EA21R)

 

[Austin343]

Endurance races: Infineon World Sports endurance
Car: Chaparral 2D Race Car '67 (R2 tires, no oil change) / MR / 420HP / 771kg / 1.8kg/HP / 200 A-spec points

vs. in finish order:
Chaparral 2D Race Car '67, total time 2:45'34.508, 115 laps, fastest lap 1'22.888 (I think). Pits every 12-13 laps.
BMW V12 LMR Race Car '99, +~1'24. Pits every 17 laps.
Bentley Speed 8 Race Car '03, +1 lap. Pits every 17 laps.
Peugeot 905 Race Car '92, +2 laps. Pits every 17-18 laps.
Jaguar XJR-9 Race Car '88, +2 laps. Pits every 12 laps.
Nissan R390 GT1 Race Car '98, +3 laps. Pits every 15 laps.

(This lineup may not be reproducible, since I did a couple Family Cup events first to sort out the gearing and ascertain the tire life, but really any lineup with no group Cs (except the Jaguar and Peugeot) and no Audi R8 will work.)

What's that you say? That the little 2D shouldn't be able to keep up with cars that are 35 years younger and have nearly twice its power, downforce, and number of gears? Well, ordinarily it wouldn't, but Infineon is practically all corners, which is not exactly the AI's strong suit. Smallhorses inspired me to do the race in an underpowered car after his astounding 0.4 second win in the 350Z concept LM. And despite the 2D's age, gearing, and power disadvantages compared to that car, its very low weight gives it a better WPR and superior tire life, meaning this race was definitely not as hard as his.

This race was going really well until about 5 laps to go. Up until then, I had had only a few detrimental offs, and my only contacts were extremely light and came in the first couple of laps as I passed the apparently blind AI. But with the the BMW within sight for lapping, I really 🤬 up my very clean race by getting stupidly aggressive in my eagerness to embarrass it, when its tires were peaked, making it very difficult to pass cleanly. I made my first idiotic move in the hairpin, trying to outbrake and dive under it, a move that had worked many times before, but it was too far ahead and I managed to hit the tire barrier nose-first. Then I overcooked turn 4 trying to keep close and slid out enough to hit the wall with the left rear. After unintentionally hitting it in the back exiting turn 7 on a subsequent lap, I finally managed to lap it cleanly in turn 3, my favorite passing point, before I gave the lap back with a spinout entering turn 5 on the next lap as I tried to hand the Bentley a second lapping.

My lap times on unobstructed flying laps without offs were mostly 1'23s and 1'24s, with only three laps coming in below 1'23. Laps stuck behind AI or with grass excursions were mostly 1'25s. The four faster AI cars could come close to matching my pace on warm tires but lost multiple seconds a lap to me on cold tires. The Peugeot and Jaguar are fast, but they both spin out quite a lot and take themselves out of contention.


The benefit of doing this race is that I can now use the black 787B at Sarthe I with a clear conscience, having previously used it in this race. And I determined that the Gillet Vertigo can win a 200 pointer on R1s with maximum downforce against lineup 9 at Sarthe II, but I'm not going to use that car there, instead favoring my minimum downforce Peugeot 905.

 

[Austin343]

Sorry for the double post. It's okay here, right?

Smallhorses, am I correct in thinking that you're dissatisfied with your 168 points at the Motegi 8 hour endurance, and would like a unique stock 200 point entry? Well, I have a suggestion. After going through many, many road cars based off Wild Cobra's A-spec value list, and finding none to be fast enough (with the possible exception of the Hommell, which might be a bit too hard), I found that the Mistubishi Lancer 1600 GSR Rally Car '74 can win with relative ease on S1 (yes, sports hard) tires, due in part to its stock customizable parts. It can earn 200 points against the same lineup you faced in the Trueno SS, and I ran a 2'16.2 on my second lap in the Lancer, multiple seconds faster than you got in your race in the Trueno. At that pace, tire life wouldn't matter all that much, but even if the tires did go off quickly, you have a full-customize suspension to work with to try to minimize the wear. I hope it doesn't sound too much like "cheating" (even though it's perfectly within the thread rules!), but it should secure you a victory should you wish to try it.

I also found a possible 120+ point car for PD Cup, which is the BMW 120i, against Smallhorses' lineup. It might require qualifying and some blocking, but it shouldn't be terribly difficult. I'll try it this weekend, I think.

 

[Smallhorses]

The CLUB 200 list in Post #1 is now finally up-to-date again (I'm never leaving it 4 months between updates again ) and we welcome our newest member, RoadHazzard to the CLUB 200 clan! 👍
It's taken me bloody hours of compiling, so I've got good incentives for future not to wait so long.
However, it's snowboarding season and that's #1 priority at the moment!

Merry christmas and best wishes for the new year to all users of this thread, old and new. Thanks for keeping it alive. Cheers!

Great to see you stopping by here hispeed! 👍
Thanks again for keeping us all entertained with the thread concept in the first place!
Hope all's well with you.

Smallhorses, am I correct in thinking that you're dissatisfied with your 168 points at the Motegi 8 hour endurance, and would like a unique stock 200 point entry? Well, I have a suggestion. After going through many, many road cars based off Wild Cobra's A-spec value list, and finding none to be fast enough (with the possible exception of the Hommell, which might be a bit too hard), I found that the Mistubishi Lancer 1600 GSR Rally Car '74 can win with relative ease on S1 (yes, sports hard) tires, due in part to its stock customizable parts. It can earn 200 points against the same lineup you faced in the Trueno SS, and I ran a 2'16.2 on my second lap in the Lancer, multiple seconds faster than you got in your race in the Trueno. At that pace, tire life wouldn't matter all that much, but even if the tires did go off quickly, you have a full-customize suspension to work with to try to minimize the wear. I hope it doesn't sound too much like "cheating" (even though it's perfectly within the thread rules!), but it should secure you a victory should you wish to try it.

Thanks, I'll definitely bear that in mind. Finding that lineup again could prove tricky though, I tried to come across it again for RVDNuT374's benefit and it didn't appear during the first 102 enter/exits, even though I'd noted it as somewhere around 30 - 40 lineups in when I submitted my Trueno SS race.
At some point I'd love to go back and get my remaining points there, and it sounds like the Mistubishi Lancer 1600 GSR Rally Car '74 is just the ticket, especially as it was born the same year as I was!!

 

[Austin343]

Thank you, Smallhorses. 👍 I must have made a ton of extra work for you with all those Special Conditions races , but I suppose when you have four months of entries to sift through, it was already a lot of work!

As for the Motegi race, I bet that when you first did the race, you had spent one or more game days after the reset before entering the race, as that seems to alter the offered lineups. But finding the specific lineup shouldn't matter a whole lot - acccording to Wild Cobra, the car has about 22 points of leeway over the magic 200 point mark against the lineup you faced, so as long as you find a lineup with the same fastest car, you can probably afford one "slug" in the lineup and still get 200 points.

Edit: Okay, now I'm really confused as to how you even got 168 points last time against that lineup. Wild Cobra's list shows that your set of AI cars, with the multiplier for S1 tires from their stock S3s, have an average value of 1059, versus your used SS Trueno with S1s, which works out to 1003. That should give you a (60+(1059-1003))=116 point race. I can only assume that the cars are modified somehow, which throws all these calculations out the window. Basically, since you managed to find the five slowest possible cars in one lineup (as I've ascertained from reading all the race reports about this race), it seems your only choice is to look... and look... and look... until you find the same grid again. You might be able to get away with the Mugen S2000 in there as well, the next fastest AI entrant after your five cars, and perhaps the Spoon S2000 (whose relative speed I can't figure out from the reports), but your best option is to trawl through lineups until you find this one again. Assuming the same set of AI cars doesn't appear twice until you've cycled through all the possible combinations, I calculate 792 possible lineups, which means you might be entering and exiting an awful lot if you want to 200-point this race.

 

[Smallhorses]

Oh yes indeed, the thing about relying on Wild Cobra's list is that it only list stock values for all the cars.
The AI cars in the Motegi 8hr race run on SH (S1) tyres and are as follows (HP in square brackets.) : Again with thanks to jdw.

Amuse S2000 R1 '04 [298]
Mugen S2000 '00 [292]
Nismo Fairlady Z S-Tune concept by GT [295]
Nismo GT-R LM Road '95 [301]
Opera Performance S2000 '04 [297]
Opera Performance 350Z '04 [345]
Spoon S2000 '00 [298]
Spoon Integra Type R (DC2) '99 [293]
Spoon Civic Type R (EK) '00 [289]
Tom's X540 Chaser '00 [315]
Trial Celica SS-II (ZZT231) '03 [294]

As you can see, some of these cars run stock HP e.g. Nismo GT-R LM Road '95, however, some cars & the FFs in particular are modded and hence the A-spec calculations will reflect that.

If you want to know anything about the HP value of virtually any AI car in any given race (with a few exceptions and most of the opponents in the Special Conditions Hall excludes) then I have access to it courtesy of a text file compiled a long, long time ago by jdw.

Somewhere around here I'm pretty sure someone compiled a list of the laptimes of most of the cars in the Motegi 8hr race, but I'm buggered if the old grey matter will give me the location of that list right now. I'll let you know if I can extract it by feeding my brain a couple of glasses of nice red wine!

 

[Austin343]

Yeah, it is a pity he didn't finish his work, but at least he gave us that immensely useful list of stock values, and multipliers for tires, oil changes, and weight reduction. I really wish he had gotten to the power modifications section, but I guess we're just left to fiddle around, entering with different modifications each time and getting a power/weight combination that works best (talking now about the 200 point races subforum in general!). I suppose that if someone wanted to, and assuming that A-spec points are linearly related to power, his 96.86% A-spec value and 90.25% power of an old car versus a new one could be extrapolated into a graph of some sort from which A-spec points can be determined from change in power. But that sort of sounds like a lot of work, and a fair amount of testing to verify. Its application also assumes that AI cars aren't equipped with weight reduction, which of course is "invisible," and a definite possibility in races like this one or El Capitan where we know the AI's power is modified. I guess that no matter what, this race at Motegi will come down to trial and error in terms of finding 200 A-Spec points.

You know, I also remember seeing some list of lap times at Motegi 8 hour, but I can't remember where they are either. I have some vague recollection of them being associated with one of the pit strategy threads, but a Ctrl-F on both of them didn't find anything. We're counting on your wine-fueled brain, Smallhorses!

 

[Smallhorses]

Special Conditions Hall : Swiss Alps Rally Reverse (Easy)
Car: Mitsubishi Lancer 1600 GSR Rally Car '74 / FR / ?HP (160HP on garage screen) / 825kg / ?HP/kg (5.2kg/HP using garage value) / vs. Ford Focus RS '02 / 200 A-spec points

*Edit* Wine-fuelled brain to the rescue!

A little snooping,

a little deductive logic,

and an Indiana Jones-like quest later,

I was enlightened to the fact that Vash666

had conquered this challenge.

A quick search amongst his posts lead to this:

Post #840 in this thread by Vash666.

Why thank you indeed, my good man!

*Edit* Sorting them into order, we get:

Opera Performance S2000 '04 ~ 2'13
Opera Performance 350Z '04) ~ 2'14
Amuse S2000 R1 '04 ~ 2'14
Spoon S2000 '00 ~ 2'16-2'17
Nismo Fairlady Z S-Tune concept by GranTurismo (Z33) '02 ~ 2'16-2'17'
Mugen S2000 '00 ~ 2'18
Nismo GT-R LM Road Going Version '95 ~ 2'21
Tom's X540 Chaser '00 ~ 2'21
Trial Celica SS-II (ZZT231) '03 ~ 2'22
Spoon Civic Type R (EK) '00 ~ 2'23
Spoon Integra Type R (DC2) '99) ~ 2'26

meaning that theoretically the Mitsubishi Lancer 1600 GSR Rally Car '74 on S1s, according to Austin343's estimates of 2'16, should be able to hang with all but the top 3 cars, and even then possibly with a meaner pit strategy, with all of them.
I figure it's a bit rude of me to steal a potential 200 point race from someone else, so I'm going to await Austin343's permission before I take this race on.
He should be busy actually completing one of his 3 x 24hr races with any luck!

 

[Austin343]

Good work finding that list. 👍 But I'd recommend not being so quick to jump to conclusions... Judging by a Family Cup race I did in the car last night, I don't think the tires will last anywhere near as long as anyone but the FFs (how can any car go 30+ laps on S1s at this track!?), and those lap times for the AI are probably average, not fastest. Still, that confirms that you can face the Mugen at least, although that wouldn't be ideal; I don't hold out hope that you can beat the Spoon S2000 or the Nismo Fairlady Z S-tune, but you can do some testing and try. If you can beat the Mugen, however, a lineup with it and four slower cars does appear relatively soon, and you should be able to use that one. Oh, and don't worry about "stealing" my idea; I was just curious about anything other than an Elise winning this race stock for 200 points, and wanted to help you out. 👍 Motegi is one of my least favorite tracks, and I'm definitely not spending 8 hours on it again now that I have 200 points from a non-stock Amuse S2000 Street Version, so go right ahead!

Edit: Oh, I just remembered, is jdw's text file of AI opponents and horsepower posted anywhere on GTP? If it's not, then would you mind putting that up somewhere (if it's possible)? It might be a tad late to be put to full use with GT5P already out, but it would still be very useful.

And on a different note, I found the Mazda 787B with S1 tires and somewhat reduced downforce to be a good candidate for Sarthe I, facing a lineup with the fastest AI being an R89C. It would be ideal to face no Group Cs at all, and have none of the super-slow cars dragging the points way down, but as ever, who knows how long it could take to find a lineup like that?

Edit 2: I thought this series deserved to be 200-pointed stock.

American Races: All American Championship - All races
Car: Chaparral 2D Race Car '67 (R1 tires, no oil change, downforce 20/30) / MR / 420HP / 771kg / 1.8kg/HP / 200 A-spec points

I got a bit frustrated trying to find a lineup without a Panoz or 2J, and with a maximum of one slow car, but I could not believe it when this lineup popped up on the screen (out of order): Camaro, C5R, Viper, GT '02, GT '04. This is quite literally the perfect lineup, but sadly probably not reproducible, as I tried to enter races a couple of times only to find that they weren't worth 200. The downforce can be set higher and still get 200, but I wasn't about to waste this lineup on an accidental 198 point race by setting it too high. It's a pity that I wasn't trying to use a car that hasn't been used before, specifically the Corvette Z06 '63, but as far as I know, that only would have gotten 200 against this specific lineup, and I wasn't optimistic about finding it.

It's really quite insufficient to describe these races as "easy." I qualified for each one , but only because I value clean races over the challenge of starting from the back. Even then, I cruised to victories of between 7 and 20 seconds, with 100% clean races at Seattle, Infineon, and Laguna Seca, and only two minor wall taps at New York, and only two minor AI contacts at El Capitan (the standing start put me back to 6th very quickly).

 

[mcsqueegy]

Record breaking action!!

Endurance races: El Capitan 200 miles

Car: Mercedes SL500 (R230) '02 (used, S2's) / FR / 276HP / 1840kg / 6.7kg/HP / 200 A-spec points!

vs: Dodge Viper GTS (would've been 2nd, but pitted on lap 65...)
TVR Cerbera speed 6 (2nd)
Chevy Corvette ZR-1 (4th)
Aston Martin V8 Vantage (5th)
Callaway C12 (4th)
Not as nail-biting as you'd expect. This car has unnaturally good gear shifts, like the Nissan GTR-LM. And the lead was ~1'15; I did a 360 on the last lap to celebrate. Finishing time 2:14'39.776, with only 2 cars on lead lap. Best lap was 1'57.729 (lap 64). Another possibility is the Lotus Elise type 72: with enough mileage and excellent driving, it'll have a similar p/w ratio 👍

 

[Austin343]

Wow, I really thought I had the record wrapped up with the Delorean. I didn't even consider this car because it needed to be worn out to beat the record. I also would have expected it to wear out tires too quickly. How often did you pit? And did you do a rigidity refresh? If so, I think that's against the rules, but I'm not sure. I think I may have to pull out the worn-out Crossfire and see if it can win...

 

[mcsqueegy]

Umm... every 9-10 laps, but I did accidentally pit on the 11th (I have the race mode set to simple, and it doesn't show what lap i'm on). Without the odd gearshifts I think this race would've been out of my hands...

/slightly off topic: I personally tried the Delorean a while ago, but my driving wasn't good enough .

 

[Austin343]

Sorry, where are my manners? Congratulations on your victory 👍; it certainly wouldn't have been easy, even if the car was slightly faster than the DMC. The SL500 is one of those cars modeled in the game with an automatic transmission that lets it shift very fast. I also doubt that the Elise can win, as power is such a huge factor on this track. But it's certainly conceivable, given its incredible handling. I think something like the MR-2 G-Limited might work, but I'm going to have to test out some of these cars to see if any are capable without Test Course engine wearing.

I also seem to have edited my previous post as you were responding. You didn't refresh the rigidity, right?

 

[mcsqueegy]

Nah, completely stock of course . To be honest, it didn't feel much different. The car already had a lot of body roll from what I can remember. And I gave the Elise a quick go, and got 2'00.6. It wouldn't need any fuel either I think. But another possibility for this race is the Honda Integra touring car (another FF). You'd need to change the settings a bit, but it's easily fast enough on S1/S3's.

 

[RVDNuT374]

This smashes the old record by 38 points in 3 races. 👍

Manufacturer's Hall: Lotus: Elise Trophy- Autumn Ring Reverse, Special Stage Route 5 Reverse, Hong Kong Reverse

Car: Lotus Elise '00 / MR / 120HP / 714kg / 6.0kg/HP / 151 A-spec pts. against a lineup consisting of the Motorsport Elise, 111R, Elise Sport 190, 111S, and the Type 72

All 5 races were won, but S3 tires were required at Tokyo (stupid 1 lap race), and Apricot Hill.

 

[Austin343]

Nah, completely stock of course . To be honest, it didn't feel much different. The car already had a lot of body roll from what I can remember. And I gave the Elise a quick go, and got 2'00.6. It wouldn't need any fuel either I think. But another possibility for this race is the Honda Integra touring car (another FF). You'd need to change the settings a bit, but it's easily fast enough on S1/S3's.

Yes, I already knew about the Integra being a possibility to win this race, but I figured it wasn't worth it as you had already gotten a more impressive WPR on an FF, the Trial Celica. I just went through a bunch of cars between 6.7 and 7.0, and I must say that most of them are crap. The worn Crossfire was the best I found, by quite a margin, getting a low 1'59 on my second lap of practice. It was with a rigitidy refresh left over from max-pointing the one-make, and I did appear to accidentally leave a full-customize limited-slip installed, but I still think it will be fast enough even when I take care of those two oversights. Right now I'm having Bob drive on Test Course for a few thousand miles to wear the chassis back down again. Expect me back here tomorrow, perhaps...

Smallhorses, what's your take on this whole wear-out-the-car-to-get-a-worse-WPR thing? It feels a little odd, to be honest, even though it's within the rules.

Edit: Extreme Hall: Premium Sports Lounge - All Races
Car: Shelby Series 1 Super Charged '01 / FR / 320HP / 1202kg / 3.8kg/HP / 200 A-spec points

The first four races were easy. I looked for lineups that had a Speed 12 and at least one other fast car, preferably not starting first, but even that wasn't necessary, as the AI are total crap on those tracks. New York, of course, was much harder, but I unearthed a great lineup for 200: Zonda C12, Spyker, Ford GT, Saleen, Zonda C12S. The three fast cars were held up enough by the first two slow cars to allow me to get in front of the GT by the last 90-degree corner of the first lap, and the leading slower Zonda by the middle of the second lap. From there it wasn't too hard.

I also did the maufacturer race for this car, but that's been done so many times already. It actually was harder than I thought, mostly because the races are only two laps long, and passing 5 AI cars while making up 5 seconds is a bit ridiculous. I did High-Speed Ring and Trial Mountain completely cleanly, Seattle with only a couple wall touches, and Laguna Seca and New York with a couple AI contacts due to them trying to take the inside line while I was already there.

Edit 2: Professional Hall: World Compact Car Race - All Races
Car: Mitsubishi i Concept '03 (S2 tires, no oil change) / MR / 67HP / 790kg / 11.8kg/HP / 200 A-spec points

On my first run through this series, I was up against a Colt 1.5, Lupo 1.4, Vitz RS 1.5, Micra, and A160. After a few attempts at each race, I managed to qualify first and win the first, fourth, and fifth. But at Tsukuba and Grand Valley East Reverse, it was plainly obvious that a prototype mid-engined electric lawnmower wasn't going to keep up with the Colt (I actually think the AI are modified in this series). So I re-entered the championship against a Vitz Euro, Vitz RS, Corsa, A160, and Ka, and redid Tsukuba and Grand Valley, managing to win both. All but Grand Valley required a bit of practice getting the qualifying laps right, and only a bit of blocking in the race. Grand Valley, however, needed quite a lot of blocking to stay in front, but I got it in the end. I found that the CVT likes to be kept wound up, so I ended up re-learning DS2 controls for this car and switching from the right analog stick for gas/brake over to the X and square, so that I could "left-foot brake" and keep the revs up in a corner.