The 20 tracks issue is really bugging me

[JohnBM01]

Time to get real analytical for a moment. Here's a further breakdown of tracks vs. locations. Tracks mean specific facilities for racing, whether real, fictional/real (fantasy race courses in real-life locations), or fiction/fiction (fantasy race courses in fantasy locations). Location, itself, means a certain part of the world where a track is located.

TRACKS: Laguna Seca, Tsukuba, Suzuka, Grand Valley, El Capitan, Hong Kong...
LOCATIONS: United States, Japan, Europe, Germany, France, Tahiti...

So for 20 locations, I'm thinking that this may involve 20-different either real-world locations or real-world regions. Twenty tracks for a game is still a good number of courses for any racing game. Now if it was just twenty tracks, you have to define "track." Like if you take Gran Turismo 1, the game has 21 tracks, counting reverse configurations (Test Course is the only course without a reverse layout, which would be stupid to have in the first place unless you prefer oval racing as just-turn-right). You can subdivide the two variations of Grand Valley Speedway between the main Grand Prix course and the East Section. So now that I think about it, just 20 tracks isn't as bad as it seems.

Now if you want a better example of tracks vs. locations, look no further than Ridge Racer games. Take Ridge Racer Type 4, for example. You have eight tracks among five different locations with two variations (normal and reverse). Here's a comparison:

* "Helter Skelter" and "Out of Blue" - Yokohama
* "Wonder Hill" and "Heaven and Hell" - Fukuoka
* "Edge of the Earth" and "Brightest Nite" - New York City
* "Phantomile" - ???
* "Shooting Hoops" - Los Angeles

Try to follow me here. Now if you compare this to Gran Turismo 5's rumored 20 locations with 70 variations, then you'll have to define "variation." Twin Ring Motegi's oval and road course comprise two different tracks in one location. We've seen the Motegi road course divided into the West Short Course, the East Short Course, and the full road course. I want to think of these three different courses of Motegi's road course as variations of one track. The oval and road course at Motegi are two different courses, though in the same location. The oval does not physically use ANY part of the road course, and the road course does not physically use any part of the oval course. So the entire Twin Ring Motegi complex fully qualifies as a location.



I actually wanted to do a little more analytical work, but I'll stop for now.

 

[Maggot666PL]

Its probably going to be a few more than 20 like say 23 or something, now when compared to the other games this is right in line.

Shift - 18

Forza 3 - 24

GT5 - More than 20

They all have relatively the same amount, with over 950 cars I'm sure it will be plenty. Of course it would be nice to have everything we want, but there is only so much they can do, who knows maybe they ran out of room on the BR disc.

Well, that might be a number similar to other racing games, but I would find GT5 having just a bit more tracks than NFS very, very disappointing. I'm not arguing the translation here, but I'm still hoping for more and I'd be upset not seeing such tracks as Seattle or Laguna. Also lack of really new tracks should be considered an insult (there are many tracks I don't know, even tough they're "classic" for GT series, but that doesn't make it okay). I've already seen Eiger a million times and I'm already bored with it (I find it way too short, also not really a racetrack, passing tends to be bumper cars show sometimes). Also London is already a narcolepsy-inducer for me.

I'm just hoping that PD is not revealing the full list on purpose, to not let us familiarize with it and keep it fresh, maybe surprising. But still those trailers with mostly played-out tracks from Prologue are getting quite redundant.

 

[H20HYBRID_GT]

I could live with Earth's list (well i'd miss Citta D'Aria), but where do Rally races take place then?
On the other hand 70 tracks confirmation has enough room for Rally and NASCAR right ?

 

[RUI]

Great list Earth, but some wishfull thinking (I'd love old Le Mans and full ring config too).

What I realize, though, is that we can at the most treble - in some cases only double - the number of location vs layouts... to get 70 layouts out of 20 locations is kind of hard!
I also find it difficult to believe PD would leave out so many of their original tracks, and wouldn't it be logical if these were to be included as part of the same location, sort of like in GT4 (original tracks)?

 

[torontoml]

^^^ Last I read Forza has 130 layouts for 24 tracks, though some of those are ridiculous, as they have 5 layouts for the Nurb with 4 of those being called "point to point".

 

[snowgt]

Great list Earth, but some wishfull thinking (I'd love old Le Mans and full ring config too).

What I realize, though, is that we can at the most triple - in some cases only double - the number of location vs layouts... to get 70 layouts out of 20 locations is kind of hard!
I also find it difficult to believe PD would leave out so many of their original tracks, and wouldn't it be logical if these were to be included as part of the same location, sort of like in GT4 (original tracks)?

Very true. Also, to build original tracks in better quality is A LOT easier than real-life tracks, as you don't have to stick to any rules. You don't have to model the tree just right or the building in the background. Just make up whatever you like, and it's done.

I also think it's most likely that the original tracks make up one "location". So then you maybe have 1 location with 30 original tracks (forwards and reverse), and suddenly you're down to 20 real-life locations with 40 variations...sounds hell of a lot more likely suddenly, doesn't it?

 

[Tapey]

I really REALLY hope that both Citta di Aria and Costa di Amalfi are in GT5, they're gorgeous tracks that are incredibly fun to race on and would look sooooooo good in 1080p with higher res textures, especially Costa.

 

[Bogie 19th]

I think 20 tracks is more than sufficient. Look at the detail, and look at the track quality. They pick awesome tracks. I am sure we will get some DLC track love too for those begging for more.

 

[danthespaceman]

I think 20 tracks is more than sufficient. Look at the detail, and look at the track quality. They pick awesome tracks. I am sure we will get some DLC track love too for those begging for more.

Actually, Kaz said recently that they're not planning on any DLC content right now, so I wouldn't be so quick to count on that. Even if they did, how often do you think they could crank out those 3D HD tracks for us? That would ultimately just take away from the development of GT6

 

[Bogie 19th]

I know he said that, but it will happen. Sony will make it happen.

 

[Emet_PL]

I think it (the 70 track variations number) could be like...

Suzuka
Suzuka East
Suzuka West
Fuji 80's
Fuji 90's
Fuji 2005
Fuji 2005 GT
...
...
etc.
London Short
London Long
SS. Route 5
CS. Route 5
...
...
etc.
Autumn Ring
Autumn Ring Mini
Grand Valley Speedway
Grand Valley East
...
...
etc.
Some Rally Tracks...

What I mean is... that there could be ~70 track variations NOT counting REVERSE versions.
Anyway I still don't know what "20" really means but I hope it's like number of countries, where tracks are. Well... let us say >20 countries + "Polyphony Digital World" for tracks like Trial Moutain, Deep Forest, Gran Valley etc.

I think it would be the best option for us...

ps. Sorry for my bad English

 

[Seismica]

I'm guessing there will be 20 new tracks, i think ones already in GT5P were discounted in that number. If you include rally circuits, original circuits (Grand Valley has got to be in here, its so popular) and a couple of Nascar speedway circuits, then count the famous circuits from previous games like the Nurburgring, Le Sarthe, Laguna Seca, Monte Carlo etc. we are hardly going to see any new exciting tracks to the game. Maybe 5-6 at the most. And thats based on the assumption they have removed at least some of the original circuits that were in GT4 like El Capitan, Trial Mountain, Deep Forest, Autumn Ring. Basically i think its too much to expect more than 25 different circuits including rally stages. Think GT3, things go a lot slower when re-developing for a new console. But you can safely say that they will have around double the number of circuits in GT6, because they can recycle the track models from GT5.

 

[Nattefrost]

I'm guessing there will be 20 new tracks, i think ones already in GT5P were discounted in that number. If you include rally circuits, original circuits (Grand Valley has got to be in here, its so popular) and a couple of Nascar speedway circuits, then count the famous circuits from previous games like the Nurburgring, Le Sarthe, Laguna Seca, Monte Carlo etc. we are hardly going to see any new exciting tracks to the game. Maybe 5-6 at the most. And thats based on the assumption they have removed at least some of the original circuits that were in GT4 like El Capitan, Trial Mountain, Deep Forest, Autumn Ring. Basically i think its too much to expect more than 25 different circuits including rally stages. Think GT3, things go a lot slower when re-developing for a new console. But you can safely say that they will have around double the number of circuits in GT6, because they can recycle the track models from GT5.

That logic is flawed if you consider GT3 halved the number of cars from GT2, while GT5 has a lot more cars than GT4. Add to that the exceptionally long development cycle, and it's definately not too much to expect more than 25 different tracks. I've always expected this game to have even more tracks than GT4, and I still do.

 

[Seismica]

That logic is flawed if you consider GT3 halved the number of cars from GT2, while GT5 has a lot more cars than GT4. Add to that the exceptionally long development cycle, and it's definately not too much to expect more than 25 different tracks. I've always expected this game to have even more tracks than GT4, and I still do.

GT3s car and tracks numbers were pathetic compared to GT2. That was the point i was trying to make. The number of tracks in GT4 was erm... a lot. If PD tried to model each track from GT4 and add loads more for GT5, they would be overwhelmed.

The number of cars estimated for GT5 is amazing. But remember, they can adjust similar models like Each R34 Nissan SKyline is going to be similar in some respects, so it speeds up the process. But the photographing/design, modelling and texturing of each track takes 3-4 months per circuit (not sure how many teams there are for the track design/modelling, probably around 5-10). They cannot cut corners like they do with cars, each circuit has to be done individually, but around a third of the car roster uses recycled slightly adjusted models from similar version of the same car. It didn't take this long in previous games because they didn't go into so much detail. There was a similar leap in graphics from GT2 to GT3, which is why GT3 was such a small game in comparison. PD didn't want to make GT5 small like GT3 was, they have put more time effort and money into the development.

If you expect more tracks in Gt5 than there was in GT4, you will be sorely disappointed. You can expect some new ones, but expect loads of the old ones to be scrapped.

 

[RedBaron]

Even with less content, for me GT3 was much more entertaining than GT4 was. But for pure simulation with steering wheel, GT4 with N2 tyres and Nordschleife was pure fantasy. For me, GT3 - 100%, GT4-65% Done.

 

[Tenacious D]

If you expect more tracks in GT5 than there was in GT4, you will be sorely disappointed. You can expect some new ones, but expect loads of the old ones to be scrapped.

Well, this depends. As has been pointed out, even by you, the number of cars modeled over GT4's list has increased about 300 (more than 650 - more than 950).

In addition, GT4 had I think 51 or 56 layouts from around 35 locations... can't remember the actual number. For now, GT5 is stated to have 70 plus layouts. And not every track has a variation, such as Cote d'Azure or the Nordshleife, so unless there's something like Forza 2's annoying Test Track with it's 15 variations, that 20 track figure is way low. Especially as has been said before, NASCAR and WRC are going to need many of their own licensed courses.

Everything in GT5 so far has been a surprise, and I expect the race course count to be another.

 

[Bogie 19th]

I agree with Tenacious. At this point it's really only speculation and anything can happen. I don't see why they would carry some/all of them over, as well as some hot new ones. The FINAL track list and track count hasn't been announced.

 

[Racin'Jason]

I hope Motegi is in GT5. The full track might have been my favorite of GT4's track list. And it has at least 3 variations.

 

[Nattefrost]

If you expect more tracks in Gt5 than there was in GT4, you will be sorely disappointed. You can expect some new ones, but expect loads of the old ones to be scrapped.

That's your opinion. My opinion is that because PD have been working on GT5 for several years with a massive team (150 had been working on it for four years in April 2008, as stated by Kaz himself), I expect major things. 950+ cars is a sign that expectation is reasonable. Kaz has also stated a circuit takes 6 man months to model. With a team of 10, that's 20 individual circuits per year. If his earlier quote was accurate, they could've had 100 individual circuits by April this year.

This is all speculation of course, and it's not clear how accurate Kaz's estimations are or even how many people have been working on tracks. In any case, I don't think it's unreasonable at all to expect more than 35 individual circuits in GT5. On the contrary, I still expect about 50 or more. This is PD. They're insane. They work extremely long days and often even sleep at work. You can expect ridiculous things from them, and they'll just give you a game that laughs back at those expectations.

 

[Tenacious D]

This is PD. They're insane.

You know, that's a great way to put it.

And look, the 20 raceway number is probably quite a bit low, but we don't know how low. We don't know if a lot of locations have been left off because it takes half a year to get every track to look as detailed as the laser scanned real life tracks. We don't know if PD is going to surprise us with 50 locations on the Blu-ray, or if 25 of those are going to miss the ship date and have to be bought in a track pack or two. GT5 may take the car crown and Forza 3 the track trophy. That might happen. If it does, we'll still have plenty to race on and relearn. Without a doubt, the Nurburgring with the new physics is going to be a fun track to master all over again.

 

[Nattefrost]

You know, that's a great way to put it.

And look, the 20 raceway number is probably quite a bit low, but we don't know how low. We don't know if a lot of locations have been left off because it takes half a year to get every track to look as detailed as the laser scanned real life tracks. We don't know if PD is going to surprise us with 50 locations on the Blu-ray, or if 25 of those are going to miss the ship date and have to be bought in a track pack or two. GT5 may take the car crown and Forza 3 the track trophy. That might happen. If it does, we'll still have plenty to race on and relearn. Without a doubt, the Nurburgring with the new physics is going to be a fun track to master all over again.

You're right, and I'm not going to cry if there are less tracks than I expect. I'm going to enjoy the game all the same. I post about what I expect, not what I demand.

 

[bakemono858]

There isn't 20 tracks. There will be 20 locations with 70 tracks.

 

[Dravonic]

There isn't 20 tracks. There will be 20 locations with 70 tracks.

I'd like to be so sure about it as you are.

That sentence either means something really really good, or very bad. And that is something that has been slowly killing me for quite some time now.

 

[Seismica]

I think they put the 20 track figure out to make people more surprised when they announce there is going to be 40+ tracks with 100+ variations.

Thats what i'm hoping they will do. PD tends to do things like that, keep things quite secretive or release information that is not very specific (i.e. the original 20 locations 70 circuits argument) so as to cause debate.

I think we can expect around 20-25, and thats more than enough. GT3 only had 11 tracks, and there was still a lot of variation. If we assume 5 or 6 of them are rally circuits/stages, then we have at least 15 circuits, not including variations, to work with.

I thinks its a great amount. But we do expect around 50-60 in GT6 PD if you're reading this

 

[It's Me]

I don't know why reporters have not asked for clarification on this point.

 

[Dravonic]

I don't know why reporters have not asked for clarification on this point.

Because they can hardly be called reporters? And are instead halo/killzone fanboys with a microphone and a camera asking questions?

Seriously, gaming sites these days are nothing but an excuse for journalism. Except for some very rare, and mostly unknown, few.

 

[Nattefrost]

I don't know why reporters have not asked for clarification on this point.

Probably because they weren't allowed to. It's clear PD wants to keep us in the dark about this.

 

[Dan Hill]

I'm hoping for more British tracks to go with London and Top Gear (Hopefully if it is still included) like Brands Hatch (Indy and GP),Silverstone (BTCC and F1), Donnington (BTCC and F1) maybe even Goodwood (It's local to me and Brands is not far either and Kaz was at FoS).

 

[andrethaiss]

I just want the Nurburgring, Le mans and some some rally point to point tracks and im happy.

 

[speedfreak69]

I don't understand how many of you are still baffled by this,to me,it's perfectly clear,it's all said in that sentence. Location is not a country or something undefined,location is location and there is 20 of them(site,however you wanna call it),as in Fuji racetrack(or Suzuka, or any other for that matter) for example and then every variation(year,east,west,long,short,etc) is considered a track by itself(of which there are 70 total),it's perfectly logical:idea:. Only question is,which is not really debate-worthy, will they have time to squeeze few more in there until march. It'd be nice,but that's just speculation and wishful thinking now.