The 2012 Driver transfer discussion/speculation thread

[prisonermonkeys]

Sebastian Buemi's bad luck is arguably why Jaime is ahead in the points, or why he is ahead by so much, at least. Buemi has proven often that he is the more consistent driver, and is a safer bet for bringing hone the results. But Torro Rosso will read things off of a piece of paper, and look past Buemi's bad luck and boot him.

Right, well, next time there is an underperforming driver out there, you'll be the first person I'll come to when I need someone to explain away/make excuses for their poor performances. You've done it for Bruno Senna, and now you're doing it for Sebastien Buemi. Who next? Jarno Trulli?

 

[MagpieRacer]

Looks pretty equal here:
http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/statisti...f1-statistics-qualifying/#teammatecomparisons
Seems to be a small advantage in speed for Buemi, in fact.

There were several races where Alguesuari was given a much better strategy than Buemi due to not making it out of Q1 and having numerous sets of fresh tyres. As we saw with other drivers (such as Kobayashi), starting in this position was sometimes a major advantage. So I'm not convinced we can judge it all based on the points table.

Fair play, that guy like his stats! Its weird because through the season it just seemed like Alguesuari was always doing better. I guess the TV just didn't focus on Buemi as much.

But with that said, having looked at Buttons form guide against Hamilton, it paints Hamilton out as the better driver over the season despite him finishing 5th and Button 2nd.

 

[Ardius]

I thought it was pretty common knowledge Hamilton is a faster driver than Button? Whether he is better is more than just speed . Hamilton was better in qualifying this year than Button. But that doesn't affect the points table does it?

My point is just that there is more to the story than just the points table or the qualifying pace. Overall and from reading the various race reports and the driver's own stories each race, I get the impression that Buemi is slightly faster but both drivers are very equal overall.

Again, I personally think people like to favour Alguesuari more because of his lesser experience than anything else. Though people seem to forget that we are talking half-a-season worth of experience. Its not like Buemi is an ultra-experienced driver himself either. Jaime gets put in a sort of under-dog light which I don't think is entirely fair to Buemi.

 

[MagpieRacer]

I thought it was pretty common knowledge Hamilton is a faster driver than Button? Whether he is better is more than just speed . Hamilton was better in qualifying this year than Button. But that doesn't affect the points table does it?

Mm, but consistency is key to success and Button has this one wrapped up imo.

I like Buemi and Alguersuari both but Jaime just looks like he has more to bring to the table than Buemi.

 

[tibiquera]

The difference I find is that last year Buemi was average and this year he was average. Jaime was mediocre last year and average this year. Considering their ages and improvement lately, it wouldn't be far fetched to say Jaime has more potential.

 

[Peter.]

Right, well, next time there is an underperforming driver out there, you'll be the first person I'll come to when I need someone to explain away/make excuses for their poor performances. You've done it for Bruno Senna, and now you're doing it for Sebastien Buemi. Who next? Jarno Trulli?

How many times do I have to say this? Bruno Senna jumped into the car mid season, with little ot no experience with the car, tyres, KERS or DRS. The fact that he's been occasionally faster than your dear Petrov says something, and it doesn't say that he's underperforming, if you ask me.

Alguersuari has, on the other hand ,everal times been gifted with a much better strategy than Buemi due to being knocked out in Q1, thereby having many more fresh tyres than Buemi. Not only that, but Buemi's mechanical failure in India, and other times of misfortune is arguably the only reason Jaime beat him in the standings.

I have an argument for anything, my friend. You're jumping to conclusions with drivers like Senna and Buemi. You don't look at the bigger picture, or rather, especially with Senna, you choose not to look at the bigger picture and understand the situation, because you just want to always make Petrov look like the better driver by a country mile.

 

[PeterJB]

How many times do I have to say this? Bruno Senna jumped into the car mid season, with little ot no experience with the car, tyres, KERS or DRS. The fact that he's been occasionally faster than your dear Petrov says something, and it doesn't say that he's underperforming, if you ask me.
.

That wasn't the first time he'd raced though. He'd had a whole year of experience before that, so he was only a few races short of Petrov in experience. All he did this year was screw things up and go backwards during the races.

 

[Akmuq]

Buemi beat Alguersauri 13 times in qualifying.

Races is 6-6. Seems to me that Buemi has more speed but was just unlucky to have less points. Proven by the fact he spent 50 laps more ahead of his team-mate this season.

 

[The Outlaw]

That wasn't the first time he'd raced though. He'd had a whole year of experience before that, so he was only a few races short of Petrov in experience. All he did this year was screw things up and go backwards during the races.

He never said it was the first time he'd raced though - "Bruno Senna jumped into the car mid season, with little to no experience with the car, tyres, KERS or DRS".... Which just happens to be 100% true and quite an important apect when it comes to comparing both drivers.

 

[Peter.]

That wasn't the first time he'd raced though. He'd had a whole year of experience before that, so he was only a few races short of Petrov in experience. All he did this year was screw things up and go backwards during the races.

Not all his fault, really. More often than not, Senna was put on quite poor strategies by the Renault team. India for example, if he 1 stopped in India, he'd have scored points. I'll admit, Spa was entirely his fault, and Brazil was arguably of his own doing as well, though.

 

[Alex.]

If Bruno's last name wasn't Senna, you wouldn't even care, you would not be defending him to the death. He isn't Ayrton dude.

 

[Seismica]

If Bruno's last name wasn't Senna, you wouldn't even care, you would not be defending him to the death. He isn't Ayrton dude.

But at the same time people are writing him off purely because they don't think he's as good as Ayrton (Which is a bit harsh, very few drivers are as good as him). He's never going to be judged solely on his own skills until he can get a full season in a decent car under his belt. The performance of the Renault dropped off hugely by the time Bruno got in the car.

If you look at the sort of mistakes Vettel was making a couple of years ago, I believe it is unfair to judge Bruno's entire ability based on a few bad mistakes that ruined his race, just as it is unfair to judge it on his qualifying performances which so far have been good. I'm not saying he hasn't had the chance, i'm saying he's just been in the wrong place at the wrong time. The same can be said for a number of drivers actually, Massa being one of them.

 

[Alex.]

Bruno has what it takes in F1. I thoroughly believe that.

 

[Peter.]

If Bruno's last name wasn't Senna, you wouldn't even care, you would not be defending him to the death. He isn't Ayrton dude.

No, he isn't. Why does anyone who supports Bruno have to support him only because of his last name?

The 'Senna' name is as much of a help as it is a burden. It attracts attention to Bruno, but it attracts heavy criticism whenever he doesn't live up to the incredibly high expectations everyone sets for him because of his name, and what Ayrton himself said of Bruno several years ago. The man almost can't catch a break because of his last name, because many people jump up and say that he's in F1 solely because of his name.

 

[RTSolvalou]

Waiting for the news on seat 2. Hopefully we'll get the blood out of Enstone soon. I know they gave Petrov till the 10th to make up his mind, but not sure if that deadline applies to Renault's final word which we are now waiting on.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

How many times do I have to say this?

Pick a number. It doesn't matter - you're wrong. Bruno Senna was underwhelming, with a tendency to go backwards in races and be out-qualified and out-scored by his team-mate. "Jumping into the car mid-season" might be an excuse if it was Senna's rookie year ... but it wasn't.

The fact that he's been occasionally faster than your dear Petrov says something, and it doesn't say that he's underperforming, if you ask me.

"Occasionally" seems to be the key word here. I'd be much more impressed with Senna if he was say, "frequently" faster than Petrov, or "consistently" faster. He was neither.

 

[SagarisGTB]

I can't see how anyone can really make any decision between Alguesuari and Buemi. Both have highs and lows and neither have stood out from each other. It seems to me people just choose Alguesuari because:
1. He's slightly younger and "inexperienced".
2. He's Spanish instead of Swiss.
3. He's a DJ.

Because other than that I really can't see how anyone has come to conclusions that one is better than the other.
I also agree (yet again) with Martin Brundle's view that replacing both with Ricciardo and Vergne would result in similar conclusions.
Toro Rosso/Red Bull/Franz Tost/Helmut Marko find themselves in a position where they have 4 relatively equal (it seems) racing drivers and only a couple of seats to use.

Personally I feel Buemi is ever so slightly faster and more consistent than Alguesuari, but not by any margin which would cause me to ditch Alguesuari. Thats entirely based on what I think of them when watching races, not by facts. Alguesuari can and has beaten Buemi regularly too.
Both are good drivers, there is no need to get rid of either. A shame Ricciardo and Vergne can't get a look in but thats how it goes.

I agree with what you say. Buemi has shown a little more pace, especially in quali, but Jaime is younger and is developing very strong racecraft. Both guys are among the leaders in most overtakes this year. It's completely up in the air as to who will ultimately end up better. We don't know, and I doubt Red Bull does either. But if one of them does get dumped for Ricciardo/Vergne, I hope they find a seat somewhere else for 2012. Jaime probably would get a race seat or at least a test role/2013 race seat as all the team principals speak very highly of him, but I don't know about Buemi.

I also think the poor Toro Rosso may be masking the pace of both drivers as well. I would take both guys over both Force India and Sauber drivers.

Pick a number. It doesn't matter - you're wrong. Bruno Senna was underwhelming, with a tendency to go backwards in races and be out-qualified and out-scored by his team-mate. "Jumping into the car mid-season" might be an excuse if it was Senna's rookie year ... but it wasn't.

You're oversimplifying things. Remember Fisi in the 2009 Ferrari? There's so many variables that might help or (more often) impede a driver entering a race seat mid season.

That being said, although I think he did well in qualifying, (as you say) he didn't make impressions on Sundays. I wouldn't be upset if he got another chance, but there are other drivers who probably deserve it more.

 

[astrosdude91]

Don't forget that even though Bruno came in mid season, he was still Renault's test driver before and has had quite a bit of testing in the car before getting Heidfeld's seat. So you couldn't chalk it up to not knowing the car.

 

[Peter.]

Pick a number. It doesn't matter - you're wrong. Bruno Senna was underwhelming, with a tendency to go backwards in races and be out-qualified and out-scored by his team-mate. "Jumping into the car mid-season" might be an excuse if it was Senna's rookie year ... but it wasn't.


"Occasionally" seems to be the key word here. I'd be much more impressed with Senna if he was say, "frequently" faster than Petrov, or "consistently" faster. He was neither.

Wow, so a driver with significantly less experience in the Renault, with KERS, DRS and Pirelli tyres, fails to frequently beat his teammate who is much more experienced in those fields, and he is underperforming?

Brilliant logic.

Jumping into the car mid season means, first season or not, that he is going to be very inexperienced with the car. Petrov got hundreds of kilometers of testing in pre-season. Senna didn't. He drove the car for one day. and even then, only used the hard tyre. Petrov also had more than half a season with the car already. Senna, again, did not.

Now, Bruno Senna, stepped up at Spa, and outqualified Petrov on his debut, and that doesn't convince you in the slightest that he's worth the seat, and not underperforming? No, because you are the Joe Saward of Vitaly Petrov. He did it again in Singapore, and at Brazil. How about now? Nope, Mr. Saward thinks not.

Don't forget that even though Bruno came in mid season, he was still Renault's test driver before and has had quite a bit of testing in the car before getting Heidfeld's seat. So you couldn't chalk it up to not knowing the car.

He drove the 2011 car twice before Spa, in FP1 at Hungary, and for one day in pre-season testing. Yes, that is some experience, but not much, certainly not enough to really get in touch with the car.

 

[Hun200kmh]

As I said before, I'm still unsure of Senna's true value/skill. But I can't understand how Petrov retains his seat. And I find these double standards funny. If it was Senna in Petrov's position (second year in the team) and getting Petrov's results I think people here would be saying Senna should leave F1 entirely. But for some unexplainable reason the same isn't said about Petrov. One thing must be said tough ... he wrecked less cars this year.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Mercedes GP Petronas is now Mercedes AMG Petronas:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/96655

 

[axletramp]

They're going to miss the first testing session as well in order, so Pat Fry says, to gain extra time on performance development. Interesting.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/formula_one/16033591.stm

 

[The Outlaw]

As I said before, I'm still unsure of Senna's true value/skill. But I can't understand how Petrov retains his seat. And I find these double standards funny. If it was Senna in Petrov's position (second year in the team) and getting Petrov's results I think people here would be saying Senna should leave F1 entirely. But for some unexplainable reason the same isn't said about Petrov. One thing must be said tough ... he wrecked less cars this year.

The double standards are laughable

Pick a number. It doesn't matter - you're wrong. Bruno Senna was underwhelming, with a tendency to go backwards in races and be out-qualified and out-scored by his team-mate. "Jumping into the car mid-season" might be an excuse if it was Senna's rookie year ... but it wasn't.

"Occasionally" seems to be the key word here. I'd be much more impressed with Senna if he was say, "frequently" faster than Petrov, or "consistently" faster. He was neither.

This bit is from the Kimi thread, where PM was coming up with every excuse as to why Kimi will flop next year:

Except that you're ignoring the way your "facts" are two years out of date. According to you, Raikkonen can be competitive in any car he steps into, despite the fact that he hasn't driven an open-wheel racing car for two years, and has spent most of his time on dirt and snow since he left. He has no experience with Pirelli tyres, DRS, the new KERS units or fuel-heavy cars. The sport has changed compeltely since he left, and yet you insist he can be as compeittive as he was at the height of his powers as if the biggest changes the sport has ever seen were never happened.

................

But it's not something that is completely negated by Raikkonen's ability. He will have to get used to it. And that will take time. Maybe only a day, but it's a day his team would lose.


I never said it would be a problem. I said it would be a challenge they had to overcome.

Funny how PM has a bad habit of twisting things/throwing things under the rug whenever it benefits his opionion/argument Not like we (or at least I) didn't already know this some time ago though

 

[tibiquera]

Regarding the Petrov/Senna debate, when you have Senna qualifying 7th in Spa and 9th in Brazil, that really tells you the real pace of the Renault car, and I believe those are the places Kubica would've got if he was around, with the exception that Kubica would have the same pace Sunday. That to me shows Petrov was nowhere near the limits of his Renault. If he was a rookie, that'd be fine, but at this point he should be extracting a lot more from the car.

Senna on the other hand had considerable speed, with some respectable qualifyings, but no consistancy throughout the weekends. The question is: if he were to get another chance, would he improve his consistancy? I think if you take into consideration that he had little preparation this year, the one year he had before was with a car that had an almost GP2 like performance, and the fact his career is very short, then I'd say there is a good chance he'd improve.

And if you think Senna had enough preparation because of the simulator, I'd have one word for you: Badoer.

 

[fps_christian]

My predictions; Petrov will stay at Renault, Barichello will stay at Williams, Algesuari and Buemi will stay at STR.

They have all had their chances, but I don't think we have seen their true potential (except..).

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Funny how PM has a bad habit of twisting things/throwing things under the rug whenever it benefits his opionion/argument Not like we (or at least I) didn't already know this some time ago though

No, that's not what I meant at all. I meant that Raikkonen will need time to come up to speed, because his fans will expect him to blitz everybody in pre-season testing (and then moan about it when it doesn't happen). Senna, however, gets four hours in the car before every Grand Prix to get used to it - after all, it's not like he just gets in and races - and it still doesn't happen.

But thank you for twisting my words the way you claimed I did.

 

[F1 fan]

Badoer.

It's hardly fair to compare the two. Badoer hadn't raced for over ten years. Actual racing experience goes a long way. I can read about playing guitar as much as I want, but if I don't play it for six months, I'll be more than a little rusty.

 

[Carbonox]

Even though I'm definitely going back to watching F1 after Kimi's return, I unfortunately doubt he would reach the podium at least early on. Later, if the car is competitive enough against the likes of McLaren and Ferrari, things may go different, but right now I'll just be happy if he gets points consistently, be it faster or slower than Petrov.

 

[Prince.M5]

Mercedes GP Petronas is now Mercedes AMG Petronas:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/96655

I think I really like the idea... Somehow it makes the naming of the team even better!

 

[The Outlaw]

No, that's not what I meant at all. I meant that Raikkonen will need time to come up to speed,

Just as Bruno Senna did this year, being that he lacked 11 Grand Prix weekends (in comparison to Petrov) before taking over the seat at Spa, and probably only had 30% of the seat time in comparison to Petrov over the course of the season. His only prior experience in the car before filling in for Nick at Spa was 2 days of winter testing IIRC, and an FP1 session at Hungary...which is basically nothing, especially when you take into consideration the time frame of these events.

because his fans will expect him to blitz everybody in pre-season testing (and then moan about it when it doesn't happen).

Really. Do you have any evidence that they actually "expect him to blitz everybody" and will "then moan about it when it doesn't happen"?