The 2020 George Floyd/BLM/Police Brutality Protests Discussion Thread

[Danoff]

And here I thought you were smart, honest and self-confident enough to argue rationally and fairly without resorting to ad hominem innuendo. Well, maybe not? Do I need to ignore you? I will if you don't straighten up and fly right.

The "what ball" comment was intended to be taken in at least 3 ways.

1) You made no sensible argument. Your argument was sensationalist (and I pick that word intentionally), hyperbolic, and apparently in bad faith. In this case "what ball" means "was I seriously expected to respond to that?"

2) You have a history of posting sensationalist, hyperbolic arguments. And so I was musing whether I was supposed to respond to that tendency or to what was in front of me. In this case "what ball" means "should i respond to hyperbole in general? or just this one".

3) You have a history of posting sensationalist, hyperbolic arguments. And so I was musing as to whether the "ball" was akin to "the man" in this case. Not your character or anything particularly personal about you, but your argument technique in general. The fact that you often post hyperbole, and hyperbole is what you expect a response to, muddies the waters between what one considers "the man" and "the ball". In this case "what ball" means "what's the difference between responding to hyperbole in general and responding to your particular argument style".

You once tried to prevent me from responding to more than one point in a given post, saying that it was unfair for some reason or another. This way you could make multiple comments and only have to substantiate one of them. You're trying that again (although this is a much better attempt), by claiming that references to your particular argument proclivities are "ad hominem". I'm not claiming that you're a bad person, or claiming anything about your intelligence or character. I'm merely pointing out that your own statements have this consistent signature, which has often been referred to as "classic Dotini sensationalism". It's a shorthand for responding to the argument. It means that this argument is hyperbole, divorced from reality, and doesn't particularly merit a response, and that this is a common position for you. In this case, I blurred that with "Trumpsim, man" because you were arguing favor of Trump in another thread, and I saw the parallels.

I was so succinct, and yet here I am typing it all out. Anyway, if you want to ignore me, feel free. I'm not sure it would change the way you respond to my posts anyway.


Edit:

By the way, insinuating that I'm dumb, dishonest, insecure, and irrational is actual ad hominem.

 

[Joey D]

What I want is to give Black people an ownership stake in the system and its outcomes and success; a working interest and not an overriding royalty (free money).

If I remember correctly you want to take actual property and assets from someone and then redistribute and/or hand over a piece of it to blacks? How is that not free money? Just because it's not paper money, it's still assets that have value.

 

[NotThePrez]

What I want is to give Black people an ownership stake in the system and its outcomes and success; a working interest and not an overriding royalty (free money).

And where does this ownership stake come from exactly? IIRC your plan basically amounted to civil forfeiture from wealthy white people and giving those assets (or distributing the monetary value of said assets) to black Americans.

Taking existing capital from white people (which I assume is what you mean by "a stake in the system and its outcomes and success") is both theft and racist. You also potentially create a bad power dynamic in favor of African-Americans that can potentially turn into something akin to pre-Civil Rights America, just with the races reversed.

If it's new capital, where does the money for said capital come from? If it's from white people via seizing their assets and the government using the money of their own volition, than that's also racist and theft (albeit, in that scenario it could just be straight-up theft). This also has the potential to create severe economic woes if not handled properly.

On another note, I find it funny how I'm arguing against black people having too much power in this country. I'd be lying if I didn't say "huh" to myself at one point.

 

[Dotini]

If I remember correctly you want to take actual property and assets from someone and then redistribute and/or hand over a piece of it to blacks? How is that not free money? Just because it's not paper money, it's still assets that have value.

That was General Sherman's plan; 40 tillable acres and a mule taken from defeated white Southerners. Probably not Constitutional.
What I want is something very vaguely along those lines, but Constitutional. The idea is to somehow give Blacks ownership, a stake in the system, its outcomes and overall success for all. I think it's a damn good idea, and necessary.

 

[DesertPenguin]

Maybe Dotini played Detroit: Become Human recently. One of the demands of the androids is a place to live on their own and they basically request to have an entire state for themselves. What if we just give Ohio to the Black community?

 

[NotThePrez]

^Which is why I specifically asked what exactly you meant by "a stake in the system?"

 

[Dotini]

^Which is why I specifically asked what exactly you meant by "a stake in the system?"

You are asking the right question. 👍

Let's work on it.

 

[NotThePrez]

You are asking the right question. 👍

Let's work on it.

 

[Dotini]

Traditionally, a "stake in the system" might mean an ownership percentage in some kind of property (real estate or otherwise), business or enterprise in which you must invest your capital and/or labor in order for that investment to succeed, prosper and grow. But my ideas are not what matters. Your ideas are twice as important as mine.

 

[Joey D]

That was General Sherman's plan; 40 tillable acres and a mule taken from defeated white Southerners. Probably not Constitutional.
What I want is something very vaguely along those lines, but Constitutional. The idea is to somehow give Blacks ownership, a stake in the system, its outcomes and overall success for all. I think it's a damn good idea, and necessary.

So what's the stake? The only two options are to either give blacks money and/or assets so they can become part of the system, or take from something established and hand it over. Neither of those things work.

Also, as I've mentioned before how do you determine who gets the assistance? Many of the blacks currently living in America never had ancestors that were slaves. Also, not all blacks are African either nor are all Africans black. So what method do you use to determine who gets help?

 

[PeterJB]

Plus, people like Beyonce and Will Smith don't exactly need the money...

 

[Dotini]

Can we (mostly) all agree that the Black people of America as a whole lack full participation and equality and are deserving of some kind of justice, some kind of aid, aid that will give them a stake in the ongoing success and improvement of America as a whole? If so, then here is my prototype plan:

- Congress passes enabling legislation approved by the President and cleared by the courts as Constitutional - even if an Amendment must be required and passed.
- A new corporation is created, working name Martin Luther King Corporation, MLKC for short.
- The mission of the corporation is to design, manufacture, distribute and service a certain percentage - gradually rising to close to 100% - of all manufactured materiel and goods currently imported from China. This includes steel, nut and bolts, appliances, furniture, car parts, clothing, electronics, everything.
- Design centers, manufacturing plants, distribution and service centers are set up across the land, mostly near Black population concentrations.
- The best corporations in America from Microsoft to Tesla, all of them, will assist.
- Employees and management of the finished corporation will be majority, or maybe close to 100% Black.
- Ownership of MLKC will be by stock distributed proportionately to every Black person in America. Period. Superstar athletes and entertainers can decline their share.
- Corporations previously importing Chinese goods will be compensated, but only up to a point. They should have been investing in America in the first place.
- Customers of MLKC products will guaranteed by USG, states and municipalities, and the price and quality of the products will attract customers from all walks of life.
- The funding of MLKC will be by the federal government, both individual and corporate taxes.
- The import of almost all goods from China will be ended by law.
- This plan is in raw, rough form, and will need some polishing. Your input is needed.

 

[polysmut]

Ownership of MLKC will be by stock distributed proportionately to every Black person in America. Period. Superstar athletes and entertainers can decline their share.

That implies that the only way black people in the US can be financially successful is through sport and entertainment. Which would seem like a racist starting point.

 

[GranTurNismo]

Also, MLK was a socialist. "MLK Corporation" would directly conflict with his economic beliefs. MLK workers co-op would maybe be a better choice?

 

[Joey D]

Can we (mostly) all agree that the Black people of America as a whole lack full participation and equality and are deserving of some kind of justice, some kind of aid, aid that will give them a stake in the ongoing success and improvement of America as a whole? If so, then here is my prototype plan:

- Congress passes enabling legislation approved by the President and cleared by the courts as Constitutional - even if an Amendment must be required and passed.
- A new corporation is created, working name Martin Luther King Corporation, MLKC for short.
- The mission of the corporation is to design, manufacture, distribute and service a certain percentage - gradually rising to close to 100% - of all manufactured materiel and goods currently imported from China. This includes steel, nut and bolts, appliances, furniture, car parts, clothing, electronics, everything.
- Design centers, manufacturing plants, distribution and service centers are set up across the land, mostly near Black population concentrations.
- The best corporations in America from Microsoft to Tesla, all of them, will assist.
- Employees and management of the finished corporation will be majority, or maybe close to 100% Black.
- Ownership of MLKC will be by stock distributed proportionately to every Black person in America. Period. Superstar athletes and entertainers can decline their share.
- Corporations previously importing Chinese goods will be compensated, but only up to a point. They should have been investing in America in the first place.
- Customers of MLKC products will guaranteed by USG, states and municipalities, and the price and quality of the products will attract customers from all walks of life.
- The funding of MLKC will be by the federal government, both individual and corporate taxes.
- The import of almost all goods from China will be ended by law.
- This plan is in raw, rough form, and will need some polishing. Your input is needed.

So actual communism? Like not the far-right shouting about god knows what kind of communism, but like actual Marxist communism? I think I'll pass.

 

[NotThePrez]

Can we (mostly) all agree that the Black people of America as a whole lack full participation and equality and are deserving of some kind of justice, some kind of aid, aid that will give them a stake in the ongoing success and improvement of America as a whole? If so, then here is my prototype plan:

- Congress passes enabling legislation approved by the President and cleared by the courts as Constitutional - even if an Amendment must be required and passed.
- A new corporation is created, working name Martin Luther King Corporation, MLKC for short.
- The mission of the corporation is to design, manufacture, distribute and service a certain percentage - gradually rising to close to 100% - of all manufactured materiel and goods currently imported from China. This includes steel, nut and bolts, appliances, furniture, car parts, clothing, electronics, everything.
- Design centers, manufacturing plants, distribution and service centers are set up across the land, mostly near Black population concentrations.
- The best corporations in America from Microsoft to Tesla, all of them, will assist.
- Employees and management of the finished corporation will be majority, or maybe close to 100% Black.
- Ownership of MLKC will be by stock distributed proportionately to every Black person in America. Period. Superstar athletes and entertainers can decline their share.
- Corporations previously importing Chinese goods will be compensated, but only up to a point. They should have been investing in America in the first place.
- Customers of MLKC products will guaranteed by USG, states and municipalities, and the price and quality of the products will attract customers from all walks of life.
- The funding of MLKC will be by the federal government, both individual and corporate taxes.
- The import of almost all goods from China will be ended by law.
- This plan is in raw, rough form, and will need some polishing. Your input is needed.

That's....literally communism, so instant no. That's a really good way to piss off a lot of people and build a greater us vs. them dynamic between Black and White Americans.

You asked for my take on reparations, so here are my requirements. Whatever plan the government cooks up (or doesn't cook up) has to be:

A) Not inherently racist in any capacity.
B) Does not involve stealing property or assets and giving it to somebody else.
C) Doesn't amount to actual communism (aka, not the GoP's current definition) with a black coat of paint.
D) Doesn't further hamper race relations in this country.

That's basically it, beyond that I don't care. I personally could take or leave reparations, primarily because I have a very hard time seeing such a thing passing without it causing major long-term issues in some capacity. Also most "plans" I've heard in the wild usually involve punishing white people now because their ancestors were :censored:s to slaves, which is quite unfair.

 

[Dotini]

Based on initial feedback, I withdraw my plan, and will likely have no further plans.

But I still think Blacks need plan to succeed. One was promised and given by Lincoln. Then it was taken away and no plan for success has ever been seen since.

Perhaps any plan to succeed, or any plan of reparations, would make the situation worse. That would leave the current situation as a rather unacceptable default, IMO.

 

[GranTurNismo]

@Dotini with respect, did you sincerely think that plan is what would be the best way to solve institutional racism and the vast socioeconomic disparities between white and black Americans, or did you post that plan merely to see how other members would react to it. Because I’m honestly completely unsure.

 

[Dotini]

@Dotini with respect, did you sincerely think that plan is what would be the best way to solve institutional racism and the vast socioeconomic disparities between white and black Americans, or did you post that plan merely to see how other members would react to it. Because I’m honestly completely unsure.

I do not believe racism, institutional or otherwise, can be solved by legislation. It is a matter of the heart, the soul, that innermost consciousness which cannot be legislated. However, I do believe it within our ability, if not our will, to deliver a form of tangible justice and material equality which will in some measure lead to a more perfect nation.

Edit:
Sadly, my plan turned out to be crap. So I challenge anyone to do better. Should be easy to do better than me.

 

[FerrariF1GT]

The fact of the matter is, you can’t solve a problem (such as inequity towards BIPOCs) by simply throwing money at it and calling it good. It’s going to take hard work, and people of all income groups and skin tones will have to do their part, preferably without government interference.

It’s all of our responsibilities to protect the rights of everyone else, both human rights and those granted by the Constitution, first and foremost. Michael Brown, George Floyd, and countless others who were killed by police were denied a right to a trial by jury (guaranteed under the 6th Amendment), for example. That doesn’t require any legislation. Beyond rights I owe nothing to others, and others owe nothing to me.

People can also volunteer for or donate to organizations such as the NAACP. They could buy products and services from businesses owned by BIPOCs. And with platforms such as gofundme, it’s never been easier to reach out to struggling people. Again, no legislation necessary.

I guess some legislation is necessary - I think gun control laws (some of them were created by Republicans and even backed by the NRA as a reaction to the pro-gun Black Panther Party) and the war on drugs (particularly after the Democrat-penned 1994 crime bill despite its correlations to reducing violent crime rates when they were at all-time highs) have unfairly targeted BIPOCs and resulted in disproportionate incarceration rates and such laws need to be rolled back in order for equity to happen.

 

[McLaren]

No flag, no anthem, no kneeling. Still booing.

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nfl/news/chiefs-texans-national-anthem/h5wq7122d6jm17yardgjjtkqq

It remains clear that for some, it was never about disrespect or patriotism. It's about wanting the issue taken off the field so some folks can continue to refuse participating in recognizing it.

 

[UKMikey]

https://wkow.com/2020/09/03/residents-in-wauwatosa-receive-keep-wauwatosa-white-letter/

 

[Crash]

Unpopular opinion: Government employees at all levels should not be allowed to unionize. They already work for the ultimate union, the government, which is the same organization that actually creates the rules that labor unions have to follow.

He's saying they shouldn't be able to unionize.

I tend to agree. Public sector unions basically have the power to extort the tax payers that fund their salary. This happens all the time in SF. It's not uncommon for public union janitors to make over $100k/year here...

Circling back to this for a second. What if rather than disallowing public sector employees from unionizing, make all public sector employee union contracts be voted on for approval/rejection by the people in a general election?

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Circling back to this for a second. What if rather than disallowing public sector employees from unionizing, make all public sector employee union contracts be voted on for approval/rejection by the people in a general election?

I can see that getting really nasty really fast.

 

[Novalee]

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/09/13/motorsport/lewis-hamilton-breonna-taylor-trnd/index.html

Mr .Hamilton joins the chorus of justice for Breonna.

 

[McLaren]

He has been for a while. On another forum I visit though, some people have had some very eyebrow-arching views about it, claiming he has Mercedes under his bidding (b/c if they reject his contract, he'll make them look racist). Or believing F1, the sponsors, and/or Mercedes should fire him for sharing such views in the sport, as if that doesn't automatically paint any of those parties in a negative light.

It should go without saying, the people who share these thoughts also absolutely hate on Hamilton for anything he does, so watching them say such things, has suddenly explained a lot about why they feel to bag him for absolutely anything.

 

[HenrySwanson]

So black people in the US are to blame for being shot more? OK. It sounds like we're ignoring that their economic circumstances are likely to be worse. Which no doubt is all their fault too.

But isn't that showing that Chicago isn't an exception to the rule??

 

[UKMikey]

But isn't that showing that Chicago isn't an exception to the rule??

That their economic circumstances are worse? Sure. It doesn't explain why they're more likely to be arrested and incarcerated regardless of criminality though.

---

In other news, leaked documents show police knew far-right extremists were the real threat at protests, not “antifa”.

https://theintercept.com/2020/07/15/george-floyd-protests-police-far-right-antifa/

 

[Joey D]

A Salt Lake City police officer has been charged after it was determined him and his K9 unit used excess force:

Salt Lake City officer charged with felony aggravated assault after K9 attacked man

The suspect in question, Jeffery Ryans, complied with every command officers gave him and, according to the bodycam footage, showed no signs of resisting arrest. The officer, Nickolas Pearce, ordered his K9 unit to attack Ryans when Ryans was kneeling on the ground with his hands up, per the officer's request.

 

[huskeR32]

A Salt Lake City police officer has been charged after it was determined him and his K9 unit used excess force:

Salt Lake City officer charged with felony aggravated assault after K9 attacked man

The suspect in question, Jeffery Ryans, complied with every command officers gave him and, according to the bodycam footage, showed no signs of resisting arrest. The officer, Nickolas Pearce, ordered his K9 unit to attack Ryans when Ryans was kneeling on the ground with his hands up, per the officer's request.

It's awful to see that he has lasting nerve damage from it. Glad to see the perp facing charges.