The F1 driver transfer discussion/speculation archiveFormula 1 

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Right, I'm just saying they haven't done it based on 4 races, they've done it based on 23 races. Still harsh, I agree, but it may turn out to be the correct, if harsh, decision.

What would be a success situation in your eyes ?

Fair enough, but he wasn't fired, he's just in the other car...
Ah come on be smart, you know how F1 is, you know how RBR is, if he's still here it's because he has a contract and you can't terminate a contract like that. But RBR have no interest anymore in him, doesnt matter what they claim I know it was the same for Buemi/JEV.
 
What would be a success situation in your eyes ?

Well it would be if Max gets quickly up to speed and matches or even betters Ricciardo on pace and racecraft. I think if he can do that they'll see it as the right move. It's surely what they'll be expecting of him as well.

Technically they could have moved Sainz into the RB and put Kvyat against Max directly but I'm pretty sure they want to see how Max handles the pressure of the top seat as well, even if you ignore the potential threat of him being poached as another reason they did it.
 
At least if Red Bull fails to win a race again this year they have absolutely zero competition, for over reaction of the blooming century...

With all the hype surrounding Max last year it's easy to forget that Daniil was massively impressive in his debut season also. And that he beat a highly rated Ricciardo in his first year at Red Bull. Two scrappy races doesn't justify such a demotion. They really were just fishing for excuses to get Max into the top team, as soon as they could.

Potentially this could hurt both their careers, though. That is if they don't get on top of their respective new cars quickly enough, and get trounced by their new team mates, as they get up to speed. Both drivers reputations could be destroyed, although I'd argue Kvyat's is somewhat bruised already.
 
The Red Bull chopping block, by Will Buxton :rolleyes:
marko.jpg

http://www.racer.com/more/viewpoints/item/129201-buxton-red-bull-chopping-block-cuts-deep
The treatment of Kvyat by Red Bull Racing has upset a fan base already disillusioned with the outfit. This once PR-savvy, marketing-led fan favorite lost a huge amount of public goodwill after petulant outbursts against its engine supplier, rival teams and the sport itself in 2015, coupled with a threat to quit the sport if it didn't gets its way. Its dumping of a driver two weeks after he took a podium and was voted "Driver of the Day" has further cemented Red Bull and Dr Marko into the role of Formula 1's pantomime villains.
 
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Its dumping of a driver two weeks after he took a podium and was voted "Driver of the Day" has further cemented Red Bull and Dr Marko into the role of Formula 1's pantomime villains.
It doesn't really tell us anything that we didn't already know. I found this part the more interesting:

Things hadn't been right at Toro Rosso for a while. Verstappen started outgrowing the outfit almost as soon as he arrived. The signals were all there, from denying team orders to the frustration that bubbled over in multiple races, both on the radio and behind closed doors. Marko brought ex-Manor F1 team boss John Booth in at Russia to oversee the operation, a kick in the pants for Franz Tost, who had ruled over a decade of mediocrity at a team which has never made the step forward it perhaps should have.

Verstappen and engineer Xevi Pujolar became so disillusioned that they went against Tost and dictated their own Sochi qualifying strategy. Tost hit the roof. And perhaps at that moment the wheels were set in motion. Verstappen had to be moved before discontent with the manner in which Toro Rosso was run started to make the Dutchman consider other options. No sooner had the news about Verstappen moving to Red Bull hit the headlines than Pujolarwas no longer with Toro Rosso, a Night of the Long Knives by Tost against those he believed to have stood against him. All very messy. All very political. All very sad.
Now, we just need to pitch this to George RR Martin for his next book ...
 
The Red Bull chopping block:
marko.jpg

http://www.racer.com/more/viewpoints/item/129201-buxton-red-bull-chopping-block-cuts-deep
The treatment of Kvyat by Red Bull Racing has upset a fan base already disillusioned with the outfit. This once PR-savvy, marketing-led fan favorite lost a huge amount of public goodwill after petulant outbursts against its engine supplier, rival teams and the sport itself in 2015, coupled with a threat to quit the sport if it didn't gets its way. Its dumping of a driver two weeks after he took a podium and was voted "Driver of the Day" has further cemented Red Bull and Dr Marko into the role of Formula 1's pantomime villains.
I agree that the general fan base has changed their view of Redbull the way you suggest, but could it be that most fans are underinformed? People see what they want to see, hear what they want to hear.

Yes Kvyat finished ahead of Ricci last year, but as has been pointed out, it wasn't on pure pace. Reliabiliy played a big role. Kvyat definitely lost the qualifying battle, and was doing horrible so far this year.

So let's for arguement's sake say that Ricci was faster than Kvyat last year. Add in being out qualified both last year and this year (side note, the Bahrain session from this year is particularly important).

Then there's China, the podium, and the DotD nomination. I personally like the pass, was happy to see him get a podium. The fact is though, even in that race, Ricci was faster. Qualified higher, would have finished higher were it not for the puncture, and showed better pace than Kvyat in the race. Kvyat was also unable to hold off a recovering Vettel. In regards for the DotD, I think it's important to realize a lot of those votes probably came from people who simply dislike Vettel and/or Ferrari. Even Hamilton haters might have been happy with the events. There are also those who love to cheer for an under dog. If more fans would vote based on who actually drove the best that day for the entire race, and not who had the best TV moments that also happened to take out the often hated Vettel and Hamilton, then I think someone else, probably Ricci, would have won the award.

So if you try to put yourself in Redbull's shoes, I don't think it's a stretch to say that since the start of 2015, Ricci has out drove Kvyat. Based on numbers that only they see, it may be by a significant margin.


At the same time as all of this, you have Max, potentially the hottest commodity in the silly season. If you look at Australia from Max's point of view, Torro Rosso cost him a better finish because of their strategy calls. Whether that's true or false is a different debate, but I think it's fair to say that's the way Max views it. Then in Russia, he has a DNF, again something he probably blames the team for.

As much as Redbull have probably already began talks with Max about 2017, if I'm an 18 year old, Australia and Russia are making me at least take a sideways glance at what else might be out there, if I haven't been looking already.

So again, put yourself in Redbull's shoes. You have Kvyat, being beaten by Ricci. You have Max, potentially unimpressed with the TR garage.

By promoting Max, what do you have to lose? Max only has to be as good as Kvyat was, anything better is a win for Redbull. It's an opportunity to squash the tension in the TR garage, as well as show Max good will. It's also an opportunity for Redbull to evaluate Max even closer for a race or two before they decide if they want to sign him to a big contract.

If Max ends up being terrible, crumbling under the pressure or whatever, Redbull can always switch them back. Or give Sainz a try, why not?

I can't remember where I read it, but I read that Marko said at the start of the year, that all 4 drivers were being evaluated. It's entirely possible that with the information at Redbull's disposal, they saw that Kvyat was performing the worst of the four (despite the podium).

I think it's entirely possible that there was already talk within the RB camp of doing something like this before the disastrous 100m in Russia - that just accelerated the process.


When I first heard this news, I had the typical reaction of "that's bull 🤬!" However, after reading a few different websites, and reading most of the discussion here - and thinking logically instead of emotionally (which is opposite to most of the people who look at Redbull negatively now) -the move kind of makes sense.

I think the same can be said about the Redbull vs Renault saga. A lot of people made a stink about the Redbull's conduct, but no one spent much time dwelling on the fact that Renault basically came forward and accepted responsibility, confirming what Redbull were saying.

I say all that to say, while I understand that opinions on Redbull may shift to the negative because of these events, if you take the emotion out of it, that negativity is unfairly cast.
 
The problem in all of this is that Verstappen is probably going to live up to his expectations. That's by no means a bad thing, but Red Bull will be vindicated in their actions. They've completely mis-handled it, least of all because they haven't even tried to show Kvyat any support, but so long as Verstappen lives up to expectations, they will take it as carte blanche to do it again.
 
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Although not on straight form.
True, although he wasn't too far off Ricciardo. Which in my eyes at least, was still a good showing from him, in only his second season. Don't get me wrong, I wish Max all the best at Red Bull. But I feel Daniil has been unjustifiably shafted by the team.

Personally I feel they should have allowed him to see out this season at Red Bull, before releasing him quietly (as is possible), to seek pastures new. That way they'd have given him a chance to prove himself further, and potentially be picked up, by another team; without so much unwarranted harm to his reputation being done.

Now unless Kvyat can keep his head and get on with it, and adapt quickly to the Toro Rosso, he could well struggle for the rest of 2016. That, along with the damage to his image inflicted by this rash demotion, would practically finish his F1 career.
 
Foolproof plan for Kvyat to stay in Formula One: prove that he is related to Thomas Knyvet - the man who caught Guy Fawkes - and let the British press do the rest.
 
Maybe, but Red Bull have never been great at managing public perception of the way they treat their drivers. To the casual observer, this looks like Vettel talks to Hornet and Kvyat loses his seat. At the very least, they should have waited for Monaco to replace him.
Or here's a thought, be a normal team and let this ride out for the remainder of the season. Put the guy in for 17 if it means that much to them and move on. You don't need to put him in a seat now to secure the ride. Hell they could write up a contract and tell Max that the seat is his all he has to do is outperform Dani pace wise from now until race 12 or 13.

Nah instead they basically do what I find another poor taste move on their part, probably fully influenced by Marko.
 
Nah instead they basically do what I find another poor taste move on their part, probably fully influenced by Marko.

However, if it's true that there's a problem with the parent team's relationship with Tost, that there's a "toxic" atmosphere between Verstroppen and Sainz (and we only see how Verstroppen is handling that in public, Sainz may be as bad behind the scenes), and if it's true that Ricciardo and Kvyat's relationship has entirely flat-lined... why not? It's an HR fix with benefits in terms of cementing Verstroppen's contract. He's well-thought of enough to resist RB just saying "sign here for another two years, you might get a better seat".
 
However, if it's true that there's a problem with the parent team's relationship with Tost, that there's a "toxic" atmosphere between Verstroppen and Sainz (and we only see how Verstroppen is handling that in public, Sainz may be as bad behind the scenes), and if it's true that Ricciardo and Kvyat's relationship has entirely flat-lined... why not? It's an HR fix with benefits in terms of cementing Verstroppen's contract. He's well-thought of enough to resist RB just saying "sign here for another two years, you might get a better seat".

Because drivers are always like this, do you think Mercedes doesn't at times over the past 4 years just want to duct tape their two drivers mouths shut and just have them drive. Or Ferrari with Alonso for 5 years before he ultimately moved on, and times when Vettel struggles or Kimi or anyone for that matter. I mean the only peach it seems is DR and probably Wherlin, have yet to hear too much about him since he joined.

Point is, it's a move of convenience and supposedly tying up lose ends on part of RB overall, but I really see it as the pampered child continually getting what he wasn't cause he brought the world a four time champion. I'm talking about Helmut Marko.
 
For arguement's sake, can you guys name another sport or team where a player who held a key position, yet was under performing, was given the opportunity to "ride out the remainder of the season."

Most sports I follow, this type of harsh demotion is routine.
 
For arguement's sake, can you guys name another sport or team where a player who held a key position, yet was under performing, was given the opportunity to "ride out the remainder of the season."

Kimi Raikkonnen, various seasons.

Felipe Massa, ditto.
 
Mercedes - Lewis Hamilton seems to have escaped for 7 consecutive races of being out shadowed by his "so so" team mate.

Probably some American Football team has kept a QB for too long... Maybe Green Bay with Brett Favre when they could have had Aaron Rodgers ready to go.
But You need to factor in T SHirt sales...
 
It's expensive and usually not feasible to drop an F1 driver mid season in this limited testing era. Usually you have to buy out or terminate contracts, none of which is cheap or easy. It's a similar case with the example of football managers at the top clus not named Chelsea.

You can drop a player from a starting team for underperforming very easily, it's a matter of simply not writing their name on the team sheet. This whole demotion thing is only easy or feasible because RBR and STR are basically under the same umbrella, and the drivers are all controlled by one entity.
 
Ryk
Mercedes - Lewis Hamilton seems to have escaped for 7 consecutive races of being out shadowed by his "so so" team mate.

Probably some American Football team has kept a QB for too long... Maybe Green Bay with Brett Favre when they could have had Aaron Rodgers ready to go.
But You need to factor in T SHirt sales...
Both Hamilton and Farve are champions though, proven winners, and superstars in their respective leagues. Kvyat is not exactly that.

Manchester United and Louis Van Gaal
Arsenal and Arsene Wenger
i don't follow EPL close enough, not familiar with those two names. Were they top tier players past their prime, or younger guys who didn't meet expectations and standards?

It's expensive and usually not feasible to drop an F1 driver mid season in this limited testing era. Usually you have to buy out or terminate contracts, none of which is cheap or easy. It's a similar case with the example of football managers at the top clus not named Chelsea.

You can drop a player from a starting team for underperforming very easily, it's a matter of simply not writing their name on the team sheet. This whole demotion thing is only easy or feasible because RBR and STR are basically under the same umbrella, and the drivers are all controlled by one entity.
I agree with this, that it is Redbull and Toro Rosso's unique situation which made this move even possible.

With talk that we could be seeing more teams with B-squads, Ferrari, Honda, Mercedes, could this type of driver changing become more common in the future? If Massa and Raikonen's respective teams would have had a B-squad, making a demotion possible, would we have seen them demoted? Would it be a good thing or not?
 
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i don't follow EPL close enough, not familiar with those two names. Were they top tier players past their prime, or younger guys who didn't meet expectations and standards?
They're the managers who've spent this season severely underperforming for what those teams should have done.
 
The only time I've ever seen something key dropped in other sports halfway through the season was the coach. But that's management problems not player/team member issue. I feel it's quite rare to see a player dropped because they're spells of luck are sour or they're just not in the mode they could be in. People have up ticks and down ticks all the time you don't drop them because of it. You let the entire season run, evaluate at the end and move on.
 
They're the managers who've spent this season severely underperforming for what those teams should have done.
Myself, I think coaches and managers fall into a different catagory, but still, fair enough. If we're going to add them in the mix though, I can think of several occasions where coaching staff were sacked midway through a season, sometimes after just a handful of bad games. That said, there are usually a gang of other circumstances at play, but to a causal outsider, it appears as though the coach has been fired for losing a couple of games.

The only time I've ever seen something key dropped in other sports halfway through the season was the coach. But that's management problems not player/team member issue. I feel it's quite rare to see a player dropped because they're spells of luck are sour or they're just not in the mode they could be in. People have up ticks and down ticks all the time you don't drop them because of it. You let the entire season run, evaluate at the end and move on.
Quite rare to see a player dropped??

You can't recall situations where a player who was part of the starting 5 on a basketball team was relegated to sitting on the bench? Or a hockey player being dropped from 1st line to 3rd or 4th line, being a healthy scratch, being sent down to the minors, or being put on waivers? Or a football player being shuffled from first string down to second or third string?

Or situations where key players are traded mid season for nothing more than prospects, to free up salary cap space, or clear tension in the locker room (see Phil Kessel and/or Dione Phaneuf being traded from the Maple Leafs)?

The point im getting at, is in other pro sports, these type of demotions happen all the time. People are having a strong reaction to the Kvyat situation because it is rather unheard of before in F1....but in an overall sporting context, it's quite common.
 
For arguement's sake, can you guys name another sport or team where a player who held a key position, yet was under performing, was given the opportunity to "ride out the remainder of the season."

Most sports I follow, this type of harsh demotion is routine.
I don't think that it's the fact Kvyat was dropped that bothers people, but rather the way that it was done. Horner was singing him praises after Shanghai, but dropped him in a moment after Sochi. Vettel was seen whispering in his ear after his retirement, which gives the appearance that he still has a lot of influence within the team, even though he is no longer a part of it. And then you've got Verstappen being promoted despite apparently being the instigator of bad behaviour at Toro Rosso, and Toro Rosso's management of the feud between its drivers.
 
Quite rare to see a player dropped??

You can't recall situations where a player who was part of the starting 5 on a basketball team was relegated to sitting on the bench? Or a hockey player being dropped from 1st line to 3rd or 4th line, being a healthy scratch, being sent down to the minors, or being put on waivers? Or a football player being shuffled from first string down to second or third string?

Or situations where key players are traded mid season for nothing more than prospects, to free up salary cap space, or clear tension in the locker room (see Phil Kessel and/or Dione Phaneuf being traded from the Maple Leafs)?

The point im getting at, is in other pro sports, these type of demotions happen all the time. People are having a strong reaction to the Kvyat situation because it is rather unheard of before in F1....but in an overall sporting context, it's quite common.

I've never seen the starting 5 be relegated to the bench, unless your talking highschool sports...the idea that your trying to justify it through something that actually is quite unheard of due to various contracts that usually pay such high profile players a ton. And to do a payout would just bite the team in the ass, and not to discount the fact that a lot of sports have budget caps, thus wouldn't really be possible to pay out a player like it is a driver in F1. Hockey I don't watch but I believe they also have caps. The only sport I know of that has no cap and is known for dropping players to the minors is baseball, and that's only after a bad season in the league. Coaches though are different, because just like any other top down system, the management usually gets hit first by owner before they touch the players.

Now F1 is different, they usually keep their key players longer than they probably should. In recent it seems Ferrari were the only smart enough people to change directive, and it only helped them. Again in other pro series it's not something that always happens and I imagine the fact that there is an RB sister team allows for some kind of clause to drop the driver and promote another if they deem their not doing the job needed. To me this switching of teams and seats is akin to NASCAR where a owner has 3-4 cars and effectively 3-4 different teams.

They're the managers who've spent this season severely underperforming for what those teams should have done.

Yeah I saw this on Sky the other night while waiting for V8 supercars stuff.

Plays into the argument I'm trying to make where this isn't as casual as he seems to think, unless your management not utilizing the talent you have. Which happens all the time.
 
I've never seen the starting 5 be relegated to the bench, unless your talking highschool sports...the idea that your trying to justify it through something that actually is quite unheard of due to various contracts that usually pay such high profile players a ton. And to do a payout would just bite the team in the ass, and not to discount the fact that a lot of sports have budget caps, thus wouldn't really be possible to pay out a player like it is a driver in F1. Hockey I don't watch but I believe they also have caps. The only sport I know of that has no cap and is known for dropping players to the minors is baseball, and that's only after a bad season in the league. Coaches though are different, because just like any other top down system, the management usually gets hit first by owner before they touch the players.

Now F1 is different, they usually keep their key players longer than they probably should. In recent it seems Ferrari were the only smart enough people to change directive, and it only helped them. Again in other pro series it's not something that always happens and I imagine the fact that there is an RB sister team allows for some kind of clause to drop the driver and promote another if they deem their not doing the job needed. To me this switching of teams and seats is akin to NASCAR where a owner has 3-4 cars and effectively 3-4 different teams.



Yeah I saw this on Sky the other night while waiting for V8 supercars stuff.

Plays into the argument I'm trying to make where this isn't as casual as he seems to think, unless your management not utilizing the talent you have. Which happens all the time.
If you've never seen a member of a starting 5 in basketball demoted to riding the bench, including in the NBA, then you don't follow much basketball. In hockey, players get sent down to the minors and called up from the minors all throughout the regular season - across the league, this happens on a weekly basis. MLB teams routinely send players back down to the minors all throughout the season - again, on a weekly basis. American football teams routinely cut players in the middle of the season.

I get that this is a bit shocking in F1, but again, across pro sports, demoting, trading, firing, and buying out contracts, happens all the time.
 
If you've never seen a member of a starting 5 in basketball demoted to riding the bench, including in the NBA, then you don't follow much basketball. In hockey, players get sent down to the minors and called up from the minors all throughout the regular season - across the league, this happens on a weekly basis. MLB teams routinely send players back down to the minors all throughout the season - again, on a weekly basis. American football teams routinely cut players in the middle of the season.

I get that this is a bit shocking in F1, but again, across pro sports, demoting, trading, firing, and buying out contracts, happens all the time.

Followed basketball since the '94 Suns, the only time the 5 take a seat is for the bench to play, but there has never been a time that I can recall (perhaps you can find it) where the 5 starters were axed in the first 15 games in the season only to be put as second string for the remainder. Once again in relation to this scenario, no it doesn't happen but since you brought it up to start with perhaps you can show all these times it has. For context to this and how it's quite right of RBR
 
Followed basketball since the '94 Suns, the only time the 5 take a seat is for the bench to play, but there has never been a time that I can recall (perhaps you can find it) where the 5 starters were axed in the first 15 games in the season only to be put as second string for the remainder. Once again in relation to this scenario, no it doesn't happen but since you brought it up to start with perhaps you can show all these times it has. For context to this and how it's quite right of RBR
I think you misunderstood my original post on this comparison. I never meant to imply the entire starting 5 were benched. I meant individuals from the starting 5. There have certainly been instances where a member of the starting 5 was benched within the first 15 games of a season.
 
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