The F1 driver transfer discussion/speculation archiveFormula 1 

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I highly doubt that Vettel's word in Horner's ear on the pit wall has led directly to this.
Maybe, but Red Bull have never been great at managing public perception of the way they treat their drivers. To the casual observer, this looks like Vettel talks to Hornet and Kvyat loses his seat. At the very least, they should have waited for Monaco to replace him.
 
At least Kyviat can say he's the first ever driver to be demoted to Torro Rosso. You could say it's not as bad as being scrapped altogether, but I think if Red Bull had any other particularly promising youngsters below Sainz, we wouldn't have seen Kyviat again.

I didn't like Marko when he oversaw the replacement of both Buemi and Alguersuari despite both doing very little wrong and having a hell of a tussle for their careers, and I didn't like him for making Vergne disappear either. He's just a magician, always making promising F1 careers disappear, unless your name is Sebastian Vettel, or apparently, Max Verstappen.

I'm still not so sure about Max talent wise either. It seems like half talent, half PR. He's good, but I feel like he's just what happens when you give a promising young driver an F1 seat extra early, with a lot of pampering, and gets put in the spotlight a lot due to how good of a car Torro Rosso has these days, a Q3 regular and just behind Red Bull on pace, which his predecessors didn't have the benefit of.
 
That's an understatement - the car is capable of the top ten on a regular basis.

Offset by the embarrassment of being in that place to begin with. He might still be in a decent position to get some results but the sooner he is out of that seat and into a seat somewhere else, provided it's not Manor or Sauber, the better.

I don't think Kyviat is or was anything special anyway, far from the best Red Bull driver programme product in the last few years, so maybe being in the Torro Rosso is the best possible situation for him now, as he doesn't have the talent to replace any Williams or Force India driver, or the money to buy a seat.
 
At least Kyviat can say he's the first ever driver to be demoted to Torro Rosso. You could say it's not as bad as being scrapped altogether, but I think if Red Bull had any other particularly promising youngsters below Sainz, we wouldn't have seen Kyviat again.
Liuzzi
 
I don't understand the Kvyat demotion still. The man got a podium in China for crying out loud. I think Daniil is actually one of the most underrated drivers. He outperformed and outscored Ricciardo last year, he's gotten a podium this year. I'm not arguing anything against Ricciardo, he's proven he's really damn good, but Dany is arguably just as fast, but more aggressive. And my next question would be, if the aggression is the issue, then why in hell are you putting Max in his seat? It smells of nothing but "We want to assert our dominance over Ferrari in the driver market", which this early in the season isn't necessary.
 
Only if you forget about Scott Speed and Sebastian Bourdais (only taking into account his F1 career here). Liuzzi, although probably worse talent wise, managed what Buemi, Alguersuari, Vergne all have yet to do, which is to have an acceptable career in F1 after Torro Rosso.
 
I don't think Kyviat is or was anything special anyway

EDIT: For some reason I read the above as "Verstappen". Was still on first coffee of the day, my bad :D

He has an ability to carry a lot more speed off-line that's clearly a natural talent, that's something you can't teach an F1 driver. You can teach him not to lie about accidents (Monaco, braking point), not to lose his temper like a leedle bebby (Melbourne, everyone who'd listen), and how to run a solid race distance (Verstappen, whole F1 career so far).

He definitely has potential therefore. I think he's naturally faster than Grosjean who's turned into a really solid (and popular) driver after a smash-strewn first season.
 
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He has an ability to carry a lot more speed off-line that's clearly a natural talent, that's something you can't teach an F1 driver. You can teach him not to lie about accidents (Monaco, braking point), not to lose his temper like a leedle bebby (Melbourne, everyone who'd listen), and how to run a solid race distance (Verstappen, whole F1 career so far).

He definitely has potential therefore. I think he's naturally faster than Grosjean who's turned into a really solid (and popular) driver after a smash-strewn first season.
Whatever hype there is or was about Kyviat seems like much ado about nothing, as he was considerably outperformed by Vergne in his first season. He probably should have never left Torro Rosso at all, come to think of it, as throwing him into a championship team was a lot of pressure for a relative rookie, which he is probably lucky to not have cracked under sooner. This whole debacle just highlights further how poor Torro Rosso's driver management is.
 
Whatever hype there is or was about Kyviat seems like much ado about nothing, as he was considerably outperformed by Vergne in his first season. He probably should have never left Torro Rosso at all, come to think of it, as throwing him into a championship team was a lot of pressure for a relative rookie, which he is probably lucky to not have cracked under sooner. This whole debacle just highlights further how poor Torro Rosso's driver management is.

For some reason I was talking about Verstappen, d'oh :D
 
I don't understand the Kvyat demotion still.
Red Bull say that it's for two reasons - first, to take pressure off Kvyat, but secondly it alleviate tension in Toro Rosso. It seems that Verstappen and Sainz aren't getting along, though we haven't heard much of it since Melbourne.
 
Red Bull say that it's for two reasons - first, to take pressure off Kvyat, but secondly it alleviate tension in Toro Rosso. It seems that Verstappen and Sainz aren't getting along, though we haven't heard much of it since Melbourne.
But that's the thing, why not promote Sainz who has obviously more maturity?
 
But that's the thing, why not promote Sainz who has obviously more maturity?
Because taking Sainz will attract every team to Verstappen. They will interpret it as Red Bull investing in Sainz for the future, freeing Verstappen up. On a certain level, they are rewarding bad behaviour, but unless they're going to have Sainz and Verstappen trade places later in the year, there's no real alternative.
 
I don't understand the Kvyat demotion still. The man got a podium in China for crying out loud. I think Daniil is actually one of the most underrated drivers. He outperformed and outscored Ricciardo last year, he's gotten a podium this year. I'm not arguing anything against Ricciardo, he's proven he's really damn good, but Dany is arguably just as fast, but more aggressive. And my next question would be, if the aggression is the issue, then why in hell are you putting Max in his seat? It smells of nothing but "We want to assert our dominance over Ferrari in the driver market", which this early in the season isn't necessary.

On the whole I do think it's harsh but the results of last season on paper only tell part of the story. Ricciardo had a string of bad luck and unreliability so whilst his points ended up being higher RB still rated his performance as lower,

There was also a lot of luck in Kvyat's podium, plus one podium is not going to be enough to impress RB, he needs to be consistent.
 
On a certain level, they are rewarding bad behaviour

Again, as I said with Kvyat/Ricciardo, we don't know what happens behind closed doors. Sainz keeps schtum in public while Verstroppen verstrops. Who knows what happens in the garage, in debriefings. Marko does, he keeps his eye on them :)
 
On the whole I do think it's harsh but the results of last season on paper only tell part of the story. Ricciardo had a string of bad luck and unreliability so whilst his points ended up being higher RB still rated his performance as lower,

There was also a lot of luck in Kvyat's podium, plus one podium is not going to be enough to impress RB, he needs to be consistent.
Even if you have good argument it doesn't make sens to drop him after 4 races in the longest season in history. Either get Max directly or let Kvyat have his chance. But here they don't they just cut him off like that. It's not fair for him, even if F1 isn't fair anyway.
 
Even if you have good argument it doesn't make sens to drop him after 4 races in the longest season in history. Either get Max directly or let Kvyat have his chance. But here they don't they just cut him off like that. It's not fair for him, even if F1 isn't fair anyway.

Like I said I think it's harsh, only time will tell whether it was the right or wrong decision.
 
Even if you have good argument it doesn't make sens to drop him after 4 races in the longest season in history. Either get Max directly or let Kvyat have his chance. But here they don't they just cut him off like that. It's not fair for him, even if F1 isn't fair anyway.

Unless of course

you have good argument

And as for

Either get Max directly or let Kvyat have his chance.

They already had Max directly... he's a Red Bull driver. Those in the know inside Red Bull clearly feel Kvyat has had his chance, that's self-evident.

It's not fair for him, even if F1 isn't fair anyway.

They haven't done it for no reason. You can look at the collision he caused in China (although equally Vettel had no right to expect to be able to drive into a wedge) and the collision he caused in Russia (the second was a function of the first and partly due to Vettel unexpectedly lifting). You can look at Vettel's word in Horner's ear on the pit-wall in Russia... but that's all we see. Clearly there was more going on in the private team meetings - and that's in both Red Bull teams.
 
Those in the know inside Red Bull clearly feel Kvyat has had his chance, that's self-evident.
He has done a better season than riccardo last year and did the same highest result this year, sorry there's nothing bad here.

They haven't done it for no reason. You can look at the collision he caused in China (although equally Vettel had no right to expect to be able to drive into a wedge) and the collision he caused in Russia (the second was a function of the first and partly due to Vettel unexpectedly lifting). You can look at Vettel's word in Horner's ear on the pit-wall in Russia... but that's all we see. Clearly there was more going on in the private team meetings - and that's in both Red Bull t.

He didnt cause anything in china, Vettel didnt took the inside and got scared when he saw a car next to him where he left space so he collided with Kimi (and I support Vettel more than Kyvat but saying Kyvat did anything else than taking an opportunity in China is weird imo). And it's normal that he's aggressive in Russia when he see Max talking with Marko about stuff and that he got pression to deliver otherwise he's gone and to add even more to that, it's his home grand-prix so he feel he have to perform. Even if taking Vettel out is a big deal, his collisions in Russia are actually pretty minor. Nothing that could have arm anyone or beeing talk as crazy. What's funny is that everyone (RBR the first) seems to forget that Max actually hit his teammate in Australia but hey it's the genius Max, it was surely Sainz fault.

I realize we wont agree, but hey that's what make discussion interesting :D
 
in detail, last season Ricciardo did better, but reliability took alot of points of him when he has miles ahead of kyvat.

Plus he had the qualifying advantage, that he cemented further this season.
 
He has done a better season than riccardo last year and did the same highest result this year, sorry there's nothing bad here.

in detail, last season Ricciardo did better, but reliability took alot of points of him when he has miles ahead of kyvat.

Plus he had the qualifying advantage, that he cemented further this season.

Exactly. You can't just judge a season based on the finishing positions.
 
Exactly. You can't just judge a season based on the finishing positions.

Yet the world champion is the one that have the most point at the end of the season so it's really important for teams.

I do agree that it's not everything but saying it's not important is strange. If Vettel is 4 times world champion it's because he could score more point than Webber.
 
Yet the world champion is the one that have the most point at the end of the season so it's really important for teams.

But you weren't using it to define the WDC, you were using the argument to imply that Kvyat was a better all-rounder than Kvyat last year.

He didnt cause anything in china, Vettel didnt took the inside and got scared when he saw a car next to him where he left space so he collided with Kimi (and I support Vettel more than Kyvat but saying Kyvat did anything else than taking an opportunity in China is weird imo).

If you watch from above Kvyat went in too fast to hold the line in the corner - that's how he ended up in the middle of the track. Vettel had to avoid... but I still say Vettel should never have gone between Kvyat/Raikkonnen in the first place. You can't say Kvyat was blameless there though, despite going for the gap (as he should) he arrived too quickly.
 
Yet the world champion is the one that have the most point at the end of the season so it's really important for teams.

I do agree that it's not everything but saying it's not imporant is strange. Even if Webber was a better driver than Seb in some people view, Vettel is 4 times world champion because he could score more point than him, breaking or not.

Well I never said it's not important, obviously it is. Kvyat had a better season statistically, you can't argue that. However as a team you have to look to the future, and decide which driver, when not hindered, will give the best results.

If a driver has 2x or more the points of their team-mate there is a pretty good chance it was because they're better by a large margin but when you're talking about small margins as with Kvyat and Ricciardo you have to look into the performances individually.

Obviously an extreme example that would never actually happen but imagine if in a team one driver finished every race around 6th - 10th and amassed a very decent amount of points but the other driver DNF in every race. He has 0 points, on paper he looks rubbish, his team mate is the better prospect for next season. But then you look into it and of those retirements he was in the top 5 for every race before he retired through no fault of his own.

Like I say it's an extreme example but given the choice you would hire the driver who was constantly top 5, would you not?
 
Oh there's no discussion I would have taken Riccardo because he's the whole package. He's good for PR, he's a good driver and he beat Seb in the same car. So there's nothing to argue there. But then kick Kyvat directly, dont do it after 4 races because it's unfair. Let him prove himself. 4 races in a 21 races season mean nothing he could still be world champion if renault delivers the engine they promised.

I can understand why Marko did it but I wont support it because like I said I think it's unfair to fire him now.
 
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