The General Anime Thread...

[AOS-]

Historically accurate v. pretending to be on the other side of the war make for a pretty big difference. I don't expect him to make a big deal about the war crimes like what happened in nanking but I do expect some basic respect for the events of WW2 as they actually happened and not a full blown denial.

It's sad to see that a man who contributed so much to this genre will finish his career with an embarrassing and disgraceful movie.

Disgraceful from non-Japanese citizens' POV. Plus, it's not him who drew everything. He's had a team of Japanese artists draw out all those events. Most citizens there are ignorant to what the men back then have done. They aren't taught it, therefore such history does not exist to them. What they will see on screen is probably historically accurate to what they've been taught and want to believe (for the older folks).

Having said all that, he's put in a tough spot. He either supports what Japanese rather believe in and get flak from an international audience, or he gains respect from them by depicting what actually happened and receives likely more flak from hometown. Someone's going to be mad either way.

 

[nk4e]

 

[Lain]

Finished Diebuster and Michiko to Hatchin.

Diebuster was.... something. It's got some crazy awesome animation and gets quite epic at times, but overall is about as incoherent as FLCL, if not moreso. And it's stylistically and tonally very different from Gunbuster, so it doesn't really work well as a sequel.

Michiko to Hatchin was pretty cool. It was kinda like The Daughter of Twenty Faces with a couple dashes of Bebop and Black Lagoon thrown in. The ending was anticlimactic, but the journey there was consistently entertaining.

 

[Kent]

Disgraceful from non-Japanese citizens' POV. Plus, it's not him who drew everything. He's had a team of Japanese artists draw out all those events. Most citizens there are ignorant to what the men back then have done. They are taught it, therefore such history does not exist to them. What they see is probably historically accurate to what they've been taught and want to believe.

Having said all that, he's put in a tough spot. He either supports what Japanese rather believe in and get flak from an international audience, or he gains respect from them by depicting what actually happened and receives likely more flak from hometown. Someone's going to be mad either way.

You are right but I suppose the big question is...
Why address the subject in the first place?

I'm sure he could have created something original or even used a different base for the material. Instead, he went straight for the Zero and WW2.
I'd say he made a bad decision since it wouldn't be too difficult to find other stories for inspiration.

 

[AOS-]

I was thinking the same thing myself. Perhaps he had some personal message or issue he wanted to address through the film, his decision on a plot regarding WW2, or something or that matter.

What's done is done though.

 

[nk4e]

I was thinking the same thing myself. Perhaps he had some personal message or issue he wanted to address through the film, his decision on a plot regarding WW2, or something or that matter.

What's done is done though.

Miyazaki's movie, which is seeking U.S. distribution, reflects his pacifist stance. In the subtitled trailer above, he depicts Japan in the years leading up to WWII, when it faced some of the same problems that have plagued the country in recent years, including a devastating earthquake and economic stagnation. ....In 2011, Miyazaki told Japan's Cut magazine that he was inspired to make "The Wind Rises" by a quote he read of Horikoshi's: "All I wanted to do was to make something beautiful." The controversy over the film hasn't hurt its box office prospects in Japan. "The Wind Rises" has been the No. 1 film since it opened four weeks ago, and has so far grossed $57 million there.

http://www.latimes.com/entertainmen...ises-trailer-miyazaki-20130815,0,314360.story

 

[Imari]

And it's stylistically and tonally very different from Gunbuster, so it doesn't really work well as a sequel.

I watched Diebuster before I watched Gunbuster, and while it makes more sense (sort of) if you've watched both, you're not really missing much apart from a bunch of references and some very generic stuff about the universe it's set in. It's about as close to a stand-alone as you can get without actually being that. The only strong tie between the two is the endings.

Having said all that, he's put in a tough spot. He either supports what Japanese rather believe in and get flak from an international audience, or he gains respect from them by depicting what actually happened and receives likely more flak from hometown. Someone's going to be mad either way.

I agree. I don't think you can actually write that story from a Miyazaki persepective (wonderment and loveliness and all that) without offending someone. It's too close to the war and it just doesn't fit. I mean, if you tried to do the same film from the other side about the development of the Spitfire or the BF 109 you'd run into the same problems of not being able to separate it totally from being a war movie.

He'd have had to do an entirely different story to avoid that problem.

 

[AOS-]

Well that'd be the simplest solution...

Anyway:

 

[Kent]

I agree. I don't think you can actually write that story from a Miyazaki persepective (wonderment and loveliness and all that) without offending someone. It's too close to the war and it just doesn't fit. I mean, if you tried to do the same film from the other side about the development of the Spitfire or the BF 109 you'd run into the same problems of not being able to separate it totally from being a war movie.

He'd have had to do an entirely different story to avoid that problem.

Except that the spitfire was fighting Holocaust bent Nazis and Japanese- the spitfire was on the right side of the war.
Pretty much the last time most, if not all, of the world was willing to admit there was a "right" side.

There's no way around it, Miyazaki sold out and gets to live the rest of his rich life knowing he contributed to the great lie.

Edit:
Meanwhile the rest of us are left jaw dropped wondering if it was a joke, an alternate universe, an incredible oversight, or simply ethno-centric propaganda.

Not only offended but genuinely saddened.

Btw, I saw that Subby/AOT commercial on the Nasioc early, cool, but not so cool when you think about how much money, time, and response they put into it when the new STI is still on the ej257. :unimpressed:

 

[Sephy]

I think most people are taught enough "true" history to know what is "mostly" accurate or inaccurate. But remember, this is a Japanese movie aimed at a young Japanese audience. He's not going to scar them. He just wanted to tell a story. And all movies are very far fetched from reality, even historical movies. He made a movie he wanted to make. If you're offended because he didn't make the movie you wanted him to make, then that's just something you have to deal with.

Again, I haven't seen it, and I may end up hating it, but the trailer looks great and I mainly just want to see it for the prop planes and animation, not to get a history lesson. I will reserve judgement until I watch it.

 

[Imari]

Except that the spitfire was fighting Holocaust bent Nazis and Japanese- the spitfire was on the right side of the war.
Pretty much the last time most, if not all, of the world was willing to admit there was a "right" side.

There's no way around it, Miyazaki sold out and gets to live the rest of his rich life knowing he contributed to the great lie.

Edit:
Meanwhile the rest of us are left jaw dropped wondering if it was a joke, an alternate universe, an incredible oversight, or simply ethno-centric propaganda.

Sigh. I knew someone would say that. So the Spitfire is OK because it was on the winning team. Woo.


EVEN IF a Japanese or a German will admit they were on the wrong side of the war, it's hardly something that they'll thank you for harping on about. How good do you think any German below the age of 60 feels when people go on about Germany and the war? They weren't even born, yet they cop all this crap for it. Likewise the Japanese.

You'll also find that the Japanese have the additional factor that they were nuked twice. That counts for a lot as far as paying for their crimes in the eyes of a lot of Japanese. Not saying that's right or wrong, that's just how it is.

A Spitfire movie done in the same vein should come under the same fire if it doesn't address appropriately the issues associated with making a machine of war. It makes no difference which side it's on.


It's a movie about a great piece of engineering done by a Japanese man. It's unfortunate that it happens to carry the war baggage, because without that it'd be unquestionably excellent. Or people could get over themselves and realise it's been 65 years and we don't need to still be carrying grudges.

 

[AOS-]

@Imari This does not contribute to the topic, but I did want to point out that just because one country was attack does not necessarily justify a separate action of their own. I'm disagreeing with that ideal you brought up in point #2. Creating violent acts in response to violent acts doesn't solve the greater issue.

It shouldn't be considered relevant anyway. Should you do so, conflicts don't get solved like that. I'm not talking you down personally, I'm only offering what I feel is a more correct way to see the greater ideal in all this.

 

[Kent]

Sigh. I knew someone would say that. So the Spitfire is OK because it was on the winning team. Woo.


EVEN IF a Japanese or a German will admit they were on the wrong side of the war, it's hardly something that they'll thank you for harping on about. How good do you think any German below the age of 60 feels when people go on about Germany and the war? They weren't even born, yet they cop all this crap for it. Likewise the Japanese.

You'll also find that the Japanese have the additional factor that they were nuked twice. That counts for a lot as far as paying for their crimes in the eyes of a lot of Japanese. Not saying that's right or wrong, that's just how it is.

A Spitfire movie done in the same vein should come under the same fire if it doesn't address appropriately the issues associated with making a machine of war. It makes no difference which side it's on.


It's a movie about a great piece of engineering done by a Japanese man. It's unfortunate that it happens to carry the war baggage, because without that it'd be unquestionably excellent. Or people could get over themselves and realise it's been 65 years and we don't need to still be carrying grudges.

Um...

Why did he make the movie if he wasn't willing to accept the scrutiny?

More over, it's not like they were just part of the losing side of the war.

This man is trying to say they weren't even on the side of the Nazis. He's completely perverting history to say the Japanese were the victims of the Nazis.

It's the same as Germans saying the Holocaust never happened.

For that very reason, Germans generally don't make movies about how they were the victims of the war or war time movies where they pretend they were not the aggressors of a war of ethnic genocide.

Miyazaki should not have made the movie if he wasn't willing to face the reality of the war and the crimes committed by the Japanese. Simply saying that I'm harping on it doesn't have any bearing on the subject since I didn't bring this up to start with, Miyazaki brought it up and tried to white-wash history.

As a fan of anime, Japanese culture, and history, I refuse to allow this gross perversion of history to be propagated without correction. Too many people suffered (on both sides) to allow this sort of denial.

 

[Sephy]

Um...

Why did he make the movie if he wasn't willing to accept the scrutiny?

More over, it's not like they were just part of the losing side of the war.

This man is trying to say they weren't even on the side of the Nazis. He's completely perverting history to say the Japanese were the victims of the Nazis.

It's the same as Germans saying the Holocaust never happened.

For that very reason, Germans generally don't make movies about how they were the victims of the war or war time movies where they pretend they were not the aggressors of a war of ethnic genocide.

Miyazaki should not have made the movie if he wasn't willing to face the reality of the war and the crimes committed by the Japanese. Simply saying that I'm harping on it doesn't have any bearing on the subject since I didn't bring this up to start with, Miyazaki brought it up and tried to white-wash history.

As a fan of anime, Japanese culture, and history, I refuse to allow this gross perversion of history to be propagated without correction. Too many people suffered (on both sides) to allow this sort of denial.

Just view it as an alternate history film. Did you also hate Inglourious Basterds?

 

[RACECAR]

As for space dandy...
My out rage was enough to over come an good thoughtsmabout future episode or soundtracks.

He messed up horribly with space dandy and i only hope its not his last production like miyuzaki's offense to humanity that everyone avoided once @MHPALA mentioned and I commented on.

You really hate this show. What is it about it that you don't like, just curious.

 

[kennylmao]

I don't even know why I have yet to watch any Monogatari.

HNNNGGG

 

[Roger the Horse]

Because in context that scene is disturbing, and out of context it is even more so?

 

[Kent]

Just view it as an alternate history film. Did you also hate Inglourious Basterds?

So do you really see them as equally mis-representing history? I'd say the two would be more comparable if IB had portrayed the Nazis as never having committed the Holocaust.
Your question and implied comparison is invalid.

You really hate this show. What is it about it that you don't like, just curious.

I don't "hate" Space Dandy, I've just come to expect more from Watanabe and feel like he really laid out a stinker. Given, I haven't bothered watching since the first episode (that's how thoroughly unimpressed I was) but I didn't see anything suggesting there would be any meaningful content in Space Dandy. Maybe after the series has run its course and people start saying "it was really an awesome show with an incredible story"... Maybe then I'll revisit the series but in the mean time I'm going to sit that one out.

 

[Sephy]

Your question and implied comparison is invalid.

If you think so. I guess we'll just agree to disagree on this one because I don't see your point either. Just remember, movies aren't real.

It took a while to type that because of your avatar.

 

[Kent]

If you think so. I guess we'll just agree to disagree on this one because I don't see your point either. Just remember, movies aren't real.

It took a while to type that because of your avatar.

Really?
You didn't understand what I wrote?

It was very simple.
In Inglorious Basterds they portray Hitler being killed by a covert military operation. This isn't what happened but it doesn't change the fundamental issue that Hitler was part of the Axis powers and that Germany was engaging in ethnic genocide.
In The Wind Rises Miyazaki portrays the Japanese as victims of the Axis powers (Germany) and pretends the Japanese had no part in the ethnic genocide of the surrounding regions.

While one changes how an evil dictator was killed, it doesn't change the basics of which side of the war that country and army were fighting for, nor does it change the history of what actions that group of people committed. However, in the other (The Wind Rises), Japan is shown as victims of the Axis powers completely changing their position from actual history and ignores the actions committed by the Japanese army.

While you might be inclined to see things like Miyazaki in that it is OK to see Japan as an innocent victim of the war, I am inclined to see Japan as an aggressor responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people from both the east and west. Further, if it was only the deaths of soldiers I wouldn't be quite so outraged but to think of all the innocents who were raped and murdered is simply disgusting.

 

[Sephy]

No I understood what you said, though reading the explanation was still nice. I just fail understand how a fictional movie can make someone so angry.

 

[Kent]

No I understood what you said, though reading the explanation was still nice. I just fail understand how a fictional movie can make someone so angry.

And you probably don't get upset or sad when you watch all of your Madoka series or movies. Totally. I get that, no reason for any movie or show to evoke emotion from people.

Of course, then again, it might be as simple as you not caring about what happened back then.
Doesn't matter to me, and I'm glad to see you (apparently) don't care about what Miyazaki decided to end his career on, he's going to need a few supporters for sure. 👍

 

[RACECAR]

I don't "hate" Space Dandy, I've just come to expect more from Watanabe and feel like he really laid out a stinker. Given, I haven't bothered watching since the first episode (that's how thoroughly unimpressed I was) but I didn't see anything suggesting there would be any meaningful content in Space Dandy. Maybe after the series has run its course and people start saying "it was really an awesome show with an incredible story"... Maybe then I'll revisit the series but in the mean time I'm going to sit that one out.

Hmmm, ok. Outside of Cowboy Bebop (One of the first anime shows I actually got into), I'm not all that familiar with his work so I guess I can't relate at all with your feelings of expecting it to be better then it is nor agree or disagree that its bad in comparison to past production. What was it about the first episode that left you disappointed, maybe I'll get a better idea as to what you're talking about, that and it still stings me that I missed the first episode

While hearing that it was done by the creator of the Cowboy Bebop did get me interested in seeing it, I at the same time saw the promos and immediately knew this was something different so I kinda had no expections on what was it going to be, only that it looked like it was going to be a lot more colorful and less serious.

 

[Sephy]

Of course, then again, it might be as simple as you not caring about what happened back then.

Quite the contrary. I am fascinated by that period in history. I guess I just don't look at this medium to give me facts about something. Anime is crazy.

 

[Downhill Dino]

And speaking of animes being crazy... Although I don't post that much in here, I thought I'd share that I'm currently watching the Monogatari series. Definitely a special little show. Has anyone else watched it? Haven't seen much discussion on it if at all.

 

[Sephy]

And speaking of animes being crazy... Although I don't post that much in here, I thought I'd share that I'm currently watching the Monogatari series. Definitely a special little show. Has anyone else watched it? Haven't seen much discussion on it if at all.

I watched Bakemonogatari. Meh. Love Tsubasa, though.

 

[Techy]

I only watched Bakemonogatari, but yes, it's a pretty unique show. I only stopped because the conversations are pretty fast & sophisticated and I often miss several things. Maybe I'll read it instead, I'm not sure.

Also, what's it called when a male protagonist is only surrounded by girls? Monogatari follows this, the reason why I asked

 

[Sephy]

Harem.

 

[Imari]

And you probably don't get upset or sad when you watch all of your Madoka series or movies. Totally. I get that, no reason for any movie or show to evoke emotion from people.

There's no call for that.

I suspect I feel a similar way about Passion of the Christ that you feel about The Wind Rises. It's a disgusting revisionist take on history designed specifically to pander to a certain groups tastes.

So I watched about ten minutes, turned it off and never thought about it again. The world didn't end. We're not surrounded by people with warped views of history any more than we were before, because nobody pays any attention to history any more anyway.

So why get so fired up about this? It's wrong, but on the scale of wrong things it's pretty low. IMO, Miyazaki's stuff has been going downhill for years, so I'm not worried about him ending on a low note. He's hardly going to be able to replicate the awesomeness of Nausicaa or Mononoke. He still makes decent movies, but he's well over the hump.

 

[Cosbuster]

I only watched Bakemonogatari

You are very lucky.