The Homosexuality Discussion Thread

[Danny]

Well, not trying to insult others here, but when you try and cure a mentally-ill or psychologically-different person, isn't that also not letting them be what they want?
As for the bolded part, I just thought I'd inform that it's your opinion, with all due respect, but stating something subjective as a 'fact' can work both ways.


So how is that a justification for us to also accept it?


So what may seem to be 'natural' may in fact be the result of human interference and destruction, or 'artificial' instead.
This was just one example I posted, there may be countless more but we probably didn't bother to check any causality with environment, food, etc. and sexual behavior in animals.

You know, I could have guessed your 'location'.

 

[Pierced Lead]

Why does any of that mean that we should be stopping two consenting adults from doing what they want? It doesn' matter id homosexuality is natural or not. It's two consenting people, doing what they want to do, and I don't see how it's possible to justify stopping that.

There are standards of morality and freedom to do whatever someone wants. What people have to do is find the balance between the two.
And yes, I am implying that homosexuality/anything besides heterosexuality is immoral.

Even when done in private, the effects do in some way or another, at some point, also affect society. People just don't stay in their houses all day, nor can you expect them to, they will interact with the outside world, people out of their private circle too.

As for rape, pedophilia, etc etc. They're not even the same thing. That's sex against somebody's will, and sex with people who aren't able to give consent, usually against their will too.

The point was to tell you that having such behavior in other animals is irrelevant and NOT a justification for us to do it as well.

And yes, my bolded statement is a fact. They're not hurting anyone, they're doing what they want, and nobody has any business in anybody else's bedroom. Prove to me that's just an "opinion", and that you have the right to interfere with people's private lives.

We shouldn't interfere in domestic violence then either right? That's two (or more) people's personal affair, their private lives, the state should then not take action on that as well?
And it's an opinion because you are basing it on your values of what is right and wrong. A fact is something which is true and can be unanimously agreed upon by individuals with knowledge on that subject, e.g. Gran Turismo is on Playstation systems, China is the most populated country, etc.
Morality, freedom, sexuality, and what not are all judged and discussed on the basis of opinion, they are subjective topics with no set, black and white definition of right or wrong.

Those values are not some objective, absolute, true sense of justice and truth that apparently should lie in everybody - although that's how it seems to be to every person - they have been indoctrinated and inculcated into you by your surroundings, the people you interact with, so, in essence, your opinion on this subject is the product of your interactions with others. Hence why you have arguments to support this whilst I have arguments against it.

You know, I could have guessed your 'location'.

Do I get a cookie?

I take you're pretty offended by my 'intolerant' views on this subject?

 

[DK]

We shouldn't interfere in domestic violence then either right? That's two (or more) people's personal affair, their private lives, the state should then not take action on that as well?

Domestic violence is generally not between consenting individuals, nor is it a victimless act.

 

[TheCracker]

Do I get a cookie?

I take you're pretty offended by my 'intolerant' views on this subject?

I should think most people are

 

[PureAwesomeness]

We shouldn't interfere in domestic violence then either right? That's two (or more) people's personal affair, their private lives, the state should then not take action on that as well?

I think you missed the part about both parties consenting. Very rarely does a victim of domestic abuse consent to such treatment.

 

[Pierced Lead]

Domestic violence is generally not between consenting individuals, nor is it a victimless act.

I think you missed the part about both parties consenting. Very rarely does a victim of domestic abuse consent to such treatment.

Yeah, I missed that part. My bad.

I should think most people are

Then I apologize for sharing them. I guess I should be the first to step back, since neither camps would manage to convince the other, and well, the majority is not really supporting my stance, so, umm...

Sorry.

 

[TheCracker]

Then I apologize for sharing them. I guess I should be the first to step back, since neither camps would manage to convince the other, and well, the majority is not really supporting my stance, so, umm...

Sorry.

There's no harm done by arguing your view, even if the majority don't agree. As long as you don't mind that majority arguing strongly against your stance, and things don't degenerate into a slanging match, it's all good.

 

[FoolKiller]

Anybody considered the possibility that homosexuality is not innate or biological, rather a sociological or psychological disorder?

I'm a leg man, my best friend is a breast man, my boss is an ass man, my college friend is a man man. So?

That is what that would break down to is at worst a fetish. We going to start talking the morality of which part of a woman catches your eye first?

But if it's artificial - something that the person picks up later in life (play stage/primary socialization?), then it becomes a different story.
I do think (without offending anybody concerned) that this is something that can and should be cured.

Why should it be cured?

If science eventually determines it's not established at birth it would definitley embolden a quite a few ignoramasses.

If science did determine it is established at birth, there would still be those ignoramasses.

Don't you mean Bi-sexuality? I highly doubt there is any other species besides humans that is strictly homosexual.

Penguins mate for life with one mate. Homosexual couples have been observed.

The only way you can argue they are bisexual is that if the two had not met then maybe they would have chosen female mates. Can't really set that back to see though.

There are standards of morality and freedom to do whatever someone wants. What people have to do is find the balance between the two.
And yes, I am implying that homosexuality/anything besides heterosexuality is immoral.

And? What right do you have to enforce your morality on anyone? My dad and his girlfriend think it should be illegal to work on Sundays because that is when we should be in church and spending time with family. To me, your suggestion that homosexuality being considered immoral by some, means about as much as their suggestion that working on Sundays is considered immoral by some.

Even when done in private, the effects do in some way or another, at some point, also affect society. People just don't stay in their houses all day, nor can you expect them to, they will interact with the outside world, people out of their private circle too.

How exactly does their homosexual relationship affect you? Better yet, in what way does it affect you that your heterosexual relationship doesn't affect them in a similar way? I mean, I am perfectly fine with individuals finding homosexuality wrong or immoral, but I fail to see how it affects you or is any of your business.

Morality, freedom, sexuality, and what not are all judged and discussed on the basis of opinion, they are subjective topics with no set, black and white definition of right or wrong.

I'd argue that true freedom is an objective fact. But that's another thread.

I take you're pretty offended by my 'intolerant' views on this subject?

So long as you don't attempt to enforce your intolerant views, I personally don't care, but I will question those views as to understand why you think that way and attempt to make you understand why I find them intolerant. You aren't curious to know why I have no problem with homosexuality, despite growing up in a very religious home where I was taught that homosexuality is an abomination?

Honestly, I don't buy 100% into everyone believes what they were taught growing up stuff.

 

[Rich S]

I do think (without offending anybody concerned) that this is something that can and should be cured.

You do realize Your opinion is not supported by the World health organization, the American Psychological Association or the American Psychiatric association.

In 2005 the Tennessee Department of Children's Services found that a conversion camp had been illegally giving drugs to the gay kids sent their against their will by parents (children are the property of caregivers until age 18.)

It is illegal in the USA for licensed therapists, practicing psychologists to engage in ex-gay therapy. Those who are found out are suspended.

Although I see you claim to live in Pakistan, you are debating people from the United States and so this is what you get. I dont know what the laws are in Pakistan, I dont know what the human rights situation is over there. I know Osama Bin Laden was readily hidden by gov. officials there.

Its is not possible to change your orientation, although yes you can obstain from sex if your a religious nut job.

Christopher Austin for example was one of the biggest proponents of ex gays, he was arrested in 2007 for sexually assaulting a male client, and given 10 years in prison. He was using the therapy as a random hookup place!!!! When one of the cleints didnt want to have sex with him he tried to rape the client. The sentence was later reduced to due to errors on his prosecution.

Again another British documentary shows than many who engage in this are still gay. One therapist (later dis barred) even admitted to being attracted to his client who had a hidden camera.

In my opinion the marred "ex gays" are simply bi-sexual. And they very very likely cheat on their spouses as has been proven over and over with various baptist ministers involved in sex scandals. Not to mention the catholic priests who for years have molested altar boys and other's from "the flock".

You see the Baptists (always the evangelicals) started doing this in the 1970s and so its had lots & lots of time to be tested and its complete and total BS because physical attraction does not changed. Those bisexual baptists who fall in love with a woman have simply done so, and those who continue to hook up with members of their flock will to do so.

 

[icelt]

JFF I thought another eminent contemporary thinker's thoughts on a related topic should be recorded:

Donald Trump on gay marriage

It’s like in golf. A lot of people — I don’t want this to sound trivial — but a lot of people are switching to these really long putters, very unattractive. It’s weird. You see these great players with these really long putters, because they can’t sink three-footers anymore. And, I hate it. I am a traditionalist. I have so many fabulous friends who happen to be gay, but I am a traditionalist.

 

[Rich S]

JFF I thought another eminent contemporary thinker's thoughts on a related topic should be recorded:

Donald Trump on gay marriage

That seals it right there.....he has a complete lack of concern for social issues and if so possibly a nonchalant attitude towards foreign policy as well. What a disgrace to the republican party. BTW, you republicans and democrats are two of the same kind, corrupt.

 

[drivehard]

Penguins mate for life with one mate. Homosexual couples have been observed.

The only way you can argue they are bisexual is that if the two had not met then maybe they would have chosen female mates. Can't really set that back to see though. .

Those are captive penguins. Any examples of this behavior in the wild?

 

[FoolKiller]

Those are captive penguins. Any examples of this behavior in the wild?

I don't have time to research them all to satisfy your curiosity to a full extent, so here you go:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_displaying_homosexual_behavior

 

[LilMcGinley]

My project team at work consists of me and 4 other people, 3 guys 1 girl, 2 of the guys just happen to be gay and both have life partners. They are some of the hardest working guys I've met, not to mention cool as hell.

People just need to understand people for what/who they are.

 

[drivehard]

My project team at work consists of me and 4 other people, 3 guys 1 girl, 2 of the guys just happen to be gay and both have life partners. They are some of the hardest working guys I've met, not to mention cool as hell.

People just need to understand people for what/who they are.

Does your sig have anything to do with your post?

 

[Tesla]

^

 

[Joel]

Pierced Lead, I have just one question.

Why is it OK for you (by supporting laws against homosexuality) to interfere with these people's lives, when they have done nothing to you?

 

[Pierced Lead]

Honestly, I don't buy 100% into everyone believes what they were taught growing up stuff.

I actually thought of backing out because from where I stand, it would seem weird, in fact illogical, how I justify my stance i.e. with my religion (the same way the post below yours is justifying that my opinion is not supported by those organizations, as if they are the standards and basis of views on this subject (well, you could say they are, but I don't agree with that)). Now I'm pretty sure from here on many would call me backward and what not, the same way you randomly assumed I have been taught to condemn and murder homosexuals with that statement above...

Let me first tell you that my parents and family do not have the same views as I do in this matter. It's all mixed around. I have my own views, my family have theirs. Sure, I was taught up until maybe 3 years ago the norms and do's and don'ts of my family, but from then on, I have made my own views on life.

tl;dr I am not necessarily reflecting the views on this subject of my parents or those around me.

Pierced Lead, I have just one question.

Why is it OK for you (by supporting laws against homosexuality) to interfere with these people's lives, when they have done nothing to you?

Because, in a broader sense, in the long run, they do affect the society they are living in.


Don't get me wrong, I had/have alot of gay friends in America and UAE, they are very friendly people, awesome people, just a bit different in personality and character, which is cool. I am not saying that we should blindly throw them into needle pits just because of something that is not their fault (and I appreciate that), but that is why I suggest there could be some treatment/therapy/cure for this issue that should be used. Of those gay friends of mine, which number around 20s, 3 of them committed suicide, and some more wish they weren't gay (and they were in the US, not UAE, so don't blame the state law for what happened), so if that is any indication, some of them are not happy being that way.

 

[Joel]

Because, in a broader sense, in the long run, they do affect the society they are living in.

Of course, but why is that a bad thing?

 

[drivehard]

I actually thought of backing out because from where I stand, it would seem weird, in fact illogical, how I justify my stance i.e. with my religion (the same way the post below yours is justifying that my opinion is not supported by those organizations, as if they are the standards and basis of views on this subject (well, you could say they are, but I don't agree with that)). Now I'm pretty sure from here on many would call me backward and what not, the same way you randomly assumed I have been taught to condemn and murder homosexuals with that statement above...

Let me first tell you that my parents and family do not have the same views as I do in this matter. It's all mixed around. I have my own views, my family have theirs. Sure, I was taught up until maybe 3 years ago the norms and do's and don'ts of my family, but from then on, I have made my own views on life.

tl;dr I am not necessarily reflecting the views on this subject of my parents or those around me.



Because, in a broader sense, in the long run, they do affect the society they are living in.


Don't get me wrong, I had/have alot of gay friends in America and UAE, they are very friendly people, awesome people, just a bit different in personality and character, which is cool. I am not saying that we should blindly throw them into needle pits just because of something that is not their fault (and I appreciate that), but that is why I suggest there could be some treatment/therapy/cure for this issue that should be used. Of those gay friends of mine, which number around 20s, 3 of them committed suicide, and some more wish they weren't gay (and they were in the US, not UAE, so don't blame the state law for what happened), so if that is any indication, some of them are not happy being that way.

The list of things that effect society "badly" in the "long run" is absurdly long: video games or diet coke. In what way does it effect society badly?

"Regulation and taxation always works better than prohibition"!

Maybe we could create a gay tax.

 

[Tesla]

Don't get me wrong, I had/have alot of gay friends in America and UAE, they are very friendly people, awesome people, just a bit different in personality and character, which is cool. I am not saying that we should blindly throw them into needle pits just because of something that is not their fault (and I appreciate that), but that is why I suggest there could be some treatment/therapy/cure for this issue that should be used. Of those gay friends of mine, which number around 20s, 3 of them committed suicide, and some more wish they weren't gay (and they were in the US, not UAE, so don't blame the state law for what happened), so if that is any indication, some of them are not happy being that way.

How do we know that society's opinion of them was causing them this unhappiness?

 

[Public'sTwin]

I think it's been ~2-3 years since I've checked in on this thread. Has the "debate" changed any? Has there been an updated poll to reflect contemporary opinion? What kind of 'progress' have we made?

 

[Luminis]

Well, as far as I am concerned...

People would probably consider the stuff I did with a few former gitlfriends of mine to be immoral and/or unnatural. I am actually pretty darn certain a lot of people would think so. I wouldn't want to be judged because of my prefferences in that regard, so who am I to judge others?
Just because someone decides to do what he wants to do with another man (or another woman) doesn't make him or her less of a good person, as far as I am concerned. At least it doesn't make him or her act any more unnatural or immoral than I did.

I think that everyone who's enjoying a good sex life is acting unnatural, because that's not just sex to form an offspring, but because of fun. Is that natural? Dunno, if it is, where's the difference when two guys (or gals) are doing it?

Plus, most of the mosexual people I've met are generally very friendly and open minded, unlike some other groups of people...

 

[Rich S]

as if they are the standards and basis of views on this subject (well, you could say they are, but I don't agree with that)). Now I'm pretty sure from here on many would call me backward and what not, the same way you randomly assumed I have been taught to condemn and murder homosexuals with that statement above...

By western standards you are backwards.

I want to know, what is you standard based on? The Koran? The law in Pakistan? Shariah law? Your own opinion? Please divulge where your beliefs and veys come from. It would make things more clear for sure.

 

[buggs1a]

Gay is wrong. It is sin. God did not make Adam and Adam or eve and eve. He made man and woman. God will not give you something that will condemn you to hell. Gay is choice period.

 

[Rich S]

Gay is wrong. It is sin. God did not make Adam and Adam or eve and eve. He made man and woman. God will not give you something that will condemn you to hell. Gay is choice period.

I guess you do not follow the bible.

“Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven; -Luke 6:37

Funny how an Atheist (me) knows the bible better than bible thumpers themselves.

 

[buggs1a]

Only from a non saved person would that come from.

I did not judge nor did I condemn. I simply said the truth.

 

[buggs1a]

I am also not a bible thumper. Please no fighting and no rudeness.

 

[DK]

I am also not a bible thumper. Please no fighting and no rudeness.

A common definition of a bible-thumper is someone who says something along the lines of:

Gay is wrong. It is sin. God did not make Adam and Adam or eve and eve. He made man and woman. God will not give you something that will condemn you to hell. Gay is choice period.

I guess you do not follow the bible.

“Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven; -Luke 6:37

Funny how an Atheist (me) knows the bible better than bible thumpers themselves.

Only from a non saved person would that come from.

And in the same post you said...

I did not judge nor did I condemn. I simply said the truth.

Calling someone "non-saved" is exactly the thing I'd expect from a stereotypical "bible-thumper", and it is judging someone.

 

[crooky369]

He has to be trolling...