The Mazda Miata: Legendary or not?

[12thgear]

The Boxster is a pretty amazing car. How is it not a 'better' car than the Miata? I'm far from Porsche's biggest fan, but I give props where props are due.

The Boxster is a great car, and sometimes suffers from the "girl car" slagging the Miata gets. I can't say I'd pick a Miata over a Boxster (especially the S) if money wasn't a factor. I appreciate its practicality and its balance. But I'd miss the simpler, elemental feel of the Miata. Better cars are a little more complex and often a lot heavier. I'd probably lean more towards a late 2.2L S2000 to be honest. But the thing that bugs me about the S2000 is it isn't as much fun for me during "normal" driving.

Eff it, I'll just take all three.

 

[ShobThaBob]

Because it costs more.
*That's always their argument against every car*

Well, this is a thread referring to the Miata as legendary. Legend status cars are simply good for what they are and what they've done to the world, not constrained by petty things such as dollar value. That being said, I wasn't trying to imply that either was a better car than the other. I just think that in a thread like this, we should be appreciating and comparing the qualities of the vehicles and their intended purpose. The performance limit for a Boxster is far beyond that of Miata, as it should be, but they're both incredible IMO. If someone was gonna give me either, I'd choose the Boxster any day, but I don't think it's a legend

 

[hejira]

If it weren't for the miata, the boxter S wouldn't exist. Thats what makes the miata legendary - it made the affordable sports car popular again and now all other car companies have a market they can make and sell roadsters/affordable sports cars to since the early 90's.

I'm currently on my 2nd miata, and I have along the way driven almost every model. my mate/land lord owns a boxter S so I i've made the comparison in person.

I've also driven my ex Bosses 2004 911, and found it was incredibly boring - that was before I'd bought my first miata so when I made that conclusion it wasn't in comparison to a miata.



google this: most popular sports car ever

and look at the search results for yourself.

 

[PureAwesomeness]

If it weren't for the miata, the boxter S wouldn't exist. Thats what makes the miata legendary - it made the affordable sports car popular again and now all other car companies have a market they can make and sell roadsters/affordable sports cars to since the early 90's.

I'm currently on my 2nd miata, and I have along the way driven almost every model. my mate/land lord owns a boxter S so I i've made the comparison in person.

I've also driven my ex Bosses 2004 911, and found it was incredibly boring - that was before I'd bought my first miata so when I made that conclusion it wasn't in comparison to a miata.



google this: most popular sports car ever

and look at the search results for yourself.

I am sick of the stupid argument that if it weren't for the Miata there would be no Boxster etc. Rubbish. The Boxster, though the cheapest Porsche, is still about twice the price of a Miata.

 

[CodeRedR51]

google this: most popular sports car ever

and look at the search results for yourself.

^^^ That's awesome.

 

[The Vanishing Boy]

-> As a current owner/driver of one of the best roadsters of all time (and still the best car I've ever driven/owned), the S2000 ('04 AP2, 2.2L). Here is my take on the MX-5/Miata/Eunos Roadster. 👍

-> I've driven the NA 1.6 & 1.8 (both M/T), and the NB 1.8 non-turbo (ie. not a Mazdaspeed) A/T. And I got to say, these cars deliver oil-rig loads of FUN! 👍👍

-> My only problem with the NA is the fact I barely fit inside! As in I feel like I'm in a clown car (with my thighs hitting on the Nardi steering wheel and my head pops out the windshield. Even if I used the same technique as I did with my S2K with my perfect seat adjustment routine, it still doesn't work with the NA.

^ I saw the NA when it was still brand new (back in the Philippines), a base model 1.6 with steelies was the only model available back then, but you can still order a spec'd-out Mazdaspeed pkg. as an option (w/ the same 1.6L engine). I still adore the NA and I still am, its just I couldn't fit in it!

-> The NB on the other hand was a cozier roadster overall. As if I feel that I was in my S2K with a smaller body. The handling was equally neutral as the NA but a bit more spritely. And it was the first MX-5 that I didn't looked like a fool in it (sure, my head still pops out, but my S does the same thing). Everything seem right in this car, however...

^ The mere fact I chose the S2K over the NB was (other than it was a A/T) it had more (practical) storage space, more interior space, bigger (& more practical) trunk/boot space, and that Honda's excellent engine. Honda's F20C/F22C sound adds the joy of driving the roadster in conjuction with its chassis/handling prowess. It feels and sound like a 4-cylinder Ferrari (and I haven't gotten into the worlds best shifter yet).

-> The only Mazda roadster I haven't tried driving is the NC. But so far based on my auto show escapades, its roomier than my S2K, a better car for everyday use. And I just fell in love with the Roadster Coupe (PHRT to us Yanks), why get any other tin-top German roadster?



BT -> I would say that the Eunos Roadster/MX-5/Miata is far from being called Legendary as of the moment for a few more decades in my honest opinion. But I could easily say that the Eunos Roadster/MX-5/Miata is an Iconic Car. The Mazda Roadster revitalized the market that was lost for few years, the Roadster market.

^ Many roadsters have come and gone, and some still exist today just because the Mazda Roadster, and that won't change for many years.



My Roadster Ranking (based on driving fun factor, IMHO)
- Honda S2000 [AP1 & AP2]
- Mazda Miata [NB]
- Mazda Miata 1.8 [NA]
- BMW Z3 M Roadster
- Saturn Sky Redline (turbo)
- Mazda MX-5 1.6 [NA]
- Pontiac Solstice (non-turbo)
- BMW Z3 1.9

 

[homeforsummer]

I am sick of the stupid argument that if it weren't for the Miata there would be no Boxster etc. Rubbish. The Boxster, though the cheapest Porsche, is still about twice the price of a Miata.

I also find it hard to believe that Porsche wouldn't have resurrected the concept of the roadster themselves anyway (since they'd been doing 356 and 550 Spyders, 914s and 911 cabrios for donkeys' years - they were no stranger to the idea). The Boxster was more something to dig Porsche out of deep financial dung than it was an MX5 rival.

 

[fitftw]

The fun per dollar ratio of a Miata can't be beaten by any car in the universe. Parts are extremely cheap (a used Japanese engine with transmission can be had for $700 with 40k miles), you can get 30mpg if you keep your foot out of it, and the entry price of an NA is barely a roll of quarters.

Best part is no "big" women can fit in it. There is nothing missing from the Miata. Oh and about trunk space, S2000 guy? The trunk volume is 5.0 cu/ft for an s2000 and 5.1 cu/ft for a MSM *trollface*

 

[Eric.]

Volume itself may not be the issue, but the shape of that space.

You can probably fit bigger women in yours now that you don't have a seat.

 

[Famine]

I also find it hard to believe that Porsche wouldn't have resurrected the concept of the roadster themselves anyway (since they'd been doing 356 and 550 Spyders, 914s and 911 cabrios for donkeys' years - they were no stranger to the idea). The Boxster was more something to dig Porsche out of deep financial dung than it was an MX5 rival.

What the MX-5 did was, unexpectedly, drive a piton straight into a crack in the market. As well as being just plain great to drive, it reopened the entire light, inexpensive convertible market but, more importantly, it did it amongst women. It unleashed the power of the pink pound...

Yes, there were other convertibles already around and yes, Porsche had their own in the shape of the 911 but - and I'm afraid I have to refer to an 80s stereotype here - 911s and their convertible variants were what men aspired to own, not their wives. Men hitting £50k a year wanted their 911 and their wives wanted I don't know just a car for nipping to the shops and stuff in. My dad wanted a 911. My mum wanted a Mini*...

Along came the MX-5 and suddenly there was a car that appealed to women because it was a cute, uncomplicated convertible - and let's be honest, aside from all other factors, there is a lot of girl-appeal about the MX-5. And let's be even more honest, Porsche were not really catering to the female market.

Failing Porsche - and I've covered this elsewhere, they were on the verge of going under - created a girl-appeal car. A light, cute, uncomplicated convertible - sure, the details differ, but the principle is the same - and priced it at half the value of the 911. Mr. and Mrs. Eighties Stereotype go into a Porsche showroom looking to get a 911 for him and there's the Boxster, calling to her... They went from a company with fractional female appeal to a model that had 15% female sales and, just like the MX-5, it has abilities and appeal well beyond the "girl's car" image.


The Boxster saved Porsche (the Cayenne made it successful) and the MX-5 created - or, less superlatively, reawoke - the market for the Boxster to exist.

I'm sure they would have got there in the end - but the end for Porsche was just two years away at that point.


*Actually, she had a Mini. What she wanted was "one of those", which turned out to be an Aston Martin DB7...

 

[Jondot]

The Boxster is a pretty amazing car. How is it not a 'better' car than the Miata? I'm far from Porsche's biggest fan, but I give props where props are due.

Presumably because you can buy a Miata for £5000 and it will neither have been ruined nor empty your bank account when it goes for a service. Particularly as (I'm told) it's so easy to maintain on a do-it-yourself basis.

And you won't look like Reese Witherspoon starring in Legally Blonde.

 

[66'Roadster]

Indeed it is-the best British sports car from Japan!

 

[CodeRedR51]

Particularly as (I'm told) it's so easy to maintain on a do-it-yourself basis.

Oh you have no idea. My mom could work on a Miata.

 

[homeforsummer]

Particularly as (I'm told) it's so easy to maintain on a do-it-yourself basis.

Pretty much, apart from bits that have remained on the car for 20 years and have decided they don't want to be moved. The slave cylinder job on mine would have been a cinch had the bolts not required power tools (which I don't have) to remove.

Servicing and lots of other things were pretty easy though.

Also Famine - I agree. Didn't really think of it that way but I see where you're coming from.

 

[X-Power]

My personal opinion on this is....

No, I don't think it's legendary. Let me explain why...

It's too clinical and dull to appeal to me. It lacks that essential passion that the classic MG's and Triumph's have and it's too feminine to be cool amongst the general, non-car-fan public. Judging from other peoples reviews of it, it is a fun car but it still doesn't appeal to me. It's gotten so common that it just blends in now, the VW Golf and Ford Focus are good cars but they're not desirable or legendary because of their popularity, in the same way that the MX-5 has gotten too popular and lost it's individuality. If I was given £7,000 to buy a convertible sports car, I'd get something with soul and individuality, such as an MGB, Triumph TR7 or MG TF. Now I realise they aren't as reliable and may be more expensive to maintain but they'd be worth it because they're the real thing, not an imitation.

Now, I realise that there are a lot of MX-5 fans on this forum, so please don't take offence to my post, because it's pure opinion and not fact. Everyone likes different cars and I personally prefer the original MG's and Triumph's.

 

[homeforsummer]

No offence taken, but I'd definitely recommend trying an MX5 before you write it off as "an imitation" or "clinical". Having spent some time around MGFs I'd certainly say it has more character than those, which feel a little like Rover 200s without roofs, and it's a whole lot less plastic-crappy than something like a TR7.

I'd also think twice before describing the MGB as a car with "individuality" I'm fairly sure before the MX5 came along it was the most prolific roadster ever sold! And pick any UK classic car show and you'll see about two dozen, all of which look identical. I like MGBs but they certainly aren't individual!

None of which is relevant to the MX5/legendary thing, but thought I'd throw my two pence into the pot...

 

[12thgear]

You can call the Miata a lot of things, but cynical isn't one of them. To me the soul of a car, or really anything that's designed well, is that the team that designed it had a mission and gave a crap, and that attention and care shows in the final product.. It's not just a parts bin hodge-podge appeal to fashion. I think its feminine look comes from the car's design being pretty honest actually. It looks like what it is, a fun, approachable, affordable, lightweight sports car. It looks "sporty" but it doesn't look fast, because it isn't. I'm pretty impressed Mazda hasn't caved into making the car look more rakish than it deserves.

These are what come to my mind when people talk of cynical vehicles: Pontiac Solsitce/Saturn Sky, Jeep Compass, Jeep Patriot, Hummer H2/H3, Chrysler Crossfire, Chrysler Sebring Convertible, Toyota Camry Solara, Toyota Venza, Honda Accord Crossstour.

 

[Stotty]

Failing Porsche - and I've covered this elsewhere, they were on the verge of going under - created a girl-appeal car. A light, cute, uncomplicated convertible - sure, the details differ, but the principle is the same - and priced it at half the value of the 911. Mr. and Mrs. Eighties Stereotype go into a Porsche showroom looking to get a 911 for him and there's the Boxster, calling to her... They went from a company with fractional female appeal to a model that had 15% female sales and, just like the MX-5, it has abilities and appeal well beyond the "girl's car" image.


The Boxster saved Porsche (the Cayenne made it successful) and the MX-5 created - or, less superlatively, reawoke - the market for the Boxster to exist.

I'm sure they would have got there in the end - but the end for Porsche was just two years away at that point.

It's a big jump from 'the MX5 is legandary car' to 'the MX5 revived the small convertible' to 'the MX5 saved Porsche'.

From a product gestation perspective, Porsche was saved by the move from the 'handbuilt' 993 to the mass produced 996 (facilitating the boxster and Caymen through platform sharing), not by some Japanese £10k 2 seater.

 

[12thgear]

It's a big jump from 'the MX5 is legandary car' to 'the MX5 revived the small convertible' to 'the MX5 saved Porsche'.

From a product gestation perspective, Porsche was saved by the move from the 'handbuilt' 993 to the mass produced 996 (facilitating the boxster and Caymen through platform sharing), not by some Japanese £10k 2 seater.

Who's to say if Porsche developed the Boxster due to inspiration from the Miata? I'm leaning towards no. Purists seem to suggest that the 911 is Porsche, but they've had a lot of divergent vehicles over the years.

The Z3, S2000, MR Spyder, and the Solstice/Sky twins may owe more to the Miata though.

 

[Famine]

It's a big jump from 'the MX5 is legandary car' to 'the MX5 revived the small convertible' to 'the MX5 saved Porsche'.

And yet when explained, it's no jump at all.

From a product gestation perspective, Porsche was saved by the move from the 'handbuilt' 993 to the mass produced 996 (facilitating the boxster and Caymen through platform sharing), not by some Japanese £10k 2 seater.

Porsche sales had hit rock-bottom in 1995 - they had been in the red for every single financial year in the 1990s and sales declined yearly. They were on the verge of a buyout by Volkswagen in 1995 - having sold 21,124 cars in total in 1994 and just 19,262 in 1995.

And then the Boxster was released. 1996 sales totalled 32,383 - a 68% increase, and the first they'd seen since 1990. 1997 sales totalled 36,686. The Boxster sold out its entire first year production run before it was even launched... The 996 wasn't released until 1998 (so quite how it facilitated its predecessor escapes me) and itself produced a modest sales increase - 43,982, an increase of 20%. Porsche sales continued to rise every year bar 2001, when there was a 300 car fall, and the Cayenne was released in 2002 pushing sales from 54,234 to 66,803 - a 23% increase. 76 thousand the next year. 88 thousand the next. And so on.

Porsche Sales: 1994-2004
1994 - 21,124
1995 - 19,262
1996 - 32,383 (Boxster released)
1997 - 36,686
1998 - 43,982 (996 911 released)
1999 - 48,797
2000 - 54,586
2001 - 54,234
2002 - 66,803 (Cayenne released)
2003 - 76,827
2004 - 88,379

The Cayenne's success cemented Porsche's status and they now own just under 51% of VAG. The Cayenne wouldn't have been possible without the increase of sales brought about by the 996. The 996 wouldn't have existed if not for the increase of sales brought about by the Boxster and the Boxster, as discussed earlier, took advantage of the pink pound market that was prodded back into life by "some Japanese £10k 2 seater".

Like it or not, Porsche owns VAG today as a result of the MX-5. If not for the MX-5, they may now be part of VAG at best and extinct at worst. Or they may have come up with a brilliant plan all by themselves despite it.

 

[Stotty]

Whether the Boxster saved Porsche or not doesn't really matter (and the platform would not have existed if it hadn't been the bais for the nect 911), it's still a pile of BS to even claim the MX5 opened the market.

The consumer was clearly ready for a small convertible... if Mazda hadn't released the MX5 then Porsche might have been first to market with the Boxster.

Mazda didn't create the market. The consumer created the market.

 

[fitftw]

Even if Porsche was first to market, the fact remains that the Porsche would cost double what the Miata does. Plus German cars cost an arm and a leg for parts and service whereas Japanese cars are commonly known to be:
a) more reliable than any other country
b) cheaper than any other country
c) easier to work on

So no, I don't think the Boxster being on the market first would have had ANY effect whatsoever, and it would've sold similar numbers with or without competition from Miata, as it appeals to an entirely different income bracket.

 

[Keef]

Mazda didn't create the market. The consumer created the market.

Famine didn't say the Miata created the market - he said the car reawoke the market. That's actually an excellent analogy because Mazda wasn't tapping into consumer demand for a roadster when Bob Hall started researching the idea in 1982. At the time, the consumer market had nearly forgotten the lightweight roadster altogether - though the market one once there, and may have still been, nobody even realized it.

Luckily, Mr. Hall wanted what he wanted. He wanted Mazda to make a roadster, not the market at large. And so Mazda did, and it sold well. The market was brought back to life by the development team, the company, and the car. The Miata still is the market for lightweight roadsters to this day.

Unless somebody else would have done the same, in all likelihood the market probably would have remained dormant and Porsche would not be as it is today. All these potential Miata competitors might never have existed, but then that would be okay because most of them were only marginally successful.

 

[Famine]

Whether the Boxster saved Porsche or not doesn't really matter

Well, it's kind of important when you state outright Porsche was saved by a different car that they wouldn't have been around to build had the Boxster not turned a decade of declining sales into 15 years of increasing sales...

it's still a pile of BS to even claim the MX5 opened the market.

Then what were MX-5 buyers buying in 1987?

I mean, the Mk1 MR2 was okay, but never shifted in numbers. Where were all the buyers clamouring for a small convertible back then? Frankly, BMW even beat Mazda to the market with the Z1 and that did next to nothing... Some hatchbacks even had a convertible model - the Golf, Escort and 205 spring immediately to mind - and they sold next to nothing.

No convertible sold in anything like significant numbers between the death of the MGB and the launch of the MX-5 - and it's worth putting those sales into context. The MX-5 sold more in 1990 - the first full year of production and before they even put a 1.8 in it - than Porsche sold in 1993, 1994 and 1995 put together. They sold five times the entire Z1 production run in its first eight months. They sold more in 1990 than every other convertible of any kind in the world... put together*.

The consumer was clearly ready for a small convertible... if Mazda hadn't released the MX5 then Porsche might have been first to market with the Boxster.

What the MX-5 did was, unexpectedly, drive a piton straight into a crack in the market. As well as being just plain great to drive, it reopened the entire light, inexpensive convertible market but, more importantly, it did it amongst women. It unleashed the power of the pink pound...

Yes, there were other convertibles already around and yes, Porsche had their own in the shape of the 911 but - and I'm afraid I have to refer to an 80s stereotype here - 911s and their convertible variants were what men aspired to own, not their wives. Men hitting £50k a year wanted their 911 and their wives wanted I don't know just a car for nipping to the shops and stuff in. My dad wanted a 911. My mum wanted a Mini*...

Along came the MX-5 and suddenly there was a car that appealed to women because it was a cute, uncomplicated convertible - and let's be honest, aside from all other factors, there is a lot of girl-appeal about the MX-5. And let's be even more honest, Porsche were not really catering to the female market.

The Boxster, released seven years after the MX-5, was behind the FIAT Barchetta, the Mercedes SLK (itself a big pink pound hit) and the BMW Z3. They wouldn't have been first to the market with anything.

Mazda didn't create the market. The consumer created the market.

The MX-5 filled a niche that wasn't there at the time (Z1 aside). The consumer created the success of the MX-5 and that, in turn, created the renewed market for the small convertible.

These days, of course, every manufacturer has a pink pound convertible. All of them owe their success to the MX-5 - where the MX-5 owes all of its origins to the Lotus Elan and MGB before it.


*[Citation needed]. I read this stat somewhere once, possibly a copy of Soft Top Hard Top. 75,000 MX-5 sales in 1990. The nearest competitor, they said, was the Corvette, which was a targa in any case.

 

[hejira]

I'm liking this debate.

To the person that said they find the Miata too clinical and dull; I'm willing to bet you've never driven one.

Porsche vs Mazda aside, The trouble is that the word legendary is often affiliated with rare cars, pure race cars, or classic cars.

Even though the Miata is still a modern car and not yet classic, the impact and constant presence the Miata has had since its beginning makes it legendary.
Look up the definition of the word legendary and you'll find that in the context of describing an object rather than a person, it means to be famous or very well known.

When the first Corvettes came out, at the time they didn't think it would be as successful has it has been today, but its now legendary primarily because of its popularity and constant presence it has. The Miata had the same popularity when it was released and still has a relentless presence in the market today.

 

[eSZee]

I'm liking this debate.

To the person that said they find the Miata too clinical and dull; I'm willing to bet you've never driven one.

Because a stock Miata is some kind of thrill to drive? Someone said it before, a stock miata isn't all that spectacular.

 

[Eric.]

From my experience, they're plenty of fun stock. Just like my MR2 is plenty of fun stock. It doesn't need a V8 swap and $3000 of suspension to start becoming fun.

 

[Keef]

A stock Miata is probably the best all-round driving car on the entire market. From a person very passionate about driving and racing, I can tell you that Miatas come from the factory amazing, and can only be made even better.

 

[hejira]

eSZee - you've never driven one either, have you?

Yes a stock miata is a thrill to drive.

 

[Famine]

Porsche vs Mazda aside

Actually, they've had some success working together too - the VRIS technology that Mazda worked on (with Suzuki) in development of the K-series line of V6 engines (launched in 1991) was bought by Porsche, who called it "VarioRam" and slapped it onto the 964. And that came from some Japanese £14k hatchback.