The Unofficial GT6 VS Project Cars Debate Thread (Read the Rules!)

[Scaff]

Hmm, they feel different to me. Are you comparing the duplicates everyone complains about or running everything on RS tires?

I would have to echo the point made that cars in pCars feel far more distinct that in GT.

I'm running in two championship in the pCars career at present , using a BMW M1 Procar in one and a Caterham Seven Classic in the other and the difference in feel, reactions, etc is massive, far more than I have ever had in GT (and no I don't and never have used RS).

The starting gear in the GT6 example is 2nd vs. 1st on pCars. Also what are the driving settings in the examples? The only information I have is comfort hard tires. More info is needed to make a comparison.

Not my video, but I will put one together as soon as I can and run a back to back.

What is the info needed? Why is that info needed? What difference do you think the starting gear makes on a test primarily showing how torque is distributed for the suspension modeling?

As torque is multiplied by gear ratios it will have an impact, so it is a valid point, not that I suspect given all my past tests that it will change the outcome. A 97T should still fry the rears in 2nd.

 

[Tornado]

As torque is multiplied by gear ratios it will have an impact, so it is a valid point, not that I suspect given all my past tests that it will change the outcome. A 97T should still fry the rears in 2nd.

It has an impact, but if there is still far more than enough power to spin the drive wheels in the starting gear it should be a fairly negligible one I'd think. If the GT6 video started the car in a high enough gear to bog down the engine entirely he'd have a point.

 

[Scaff]

It has an impact, but if there is still far more than enough power to spin the drive wheels in the starting gear it should be a fairly negligible one I'd think. If the GT6 video started the car in a high enough gear to bog down the engine entirely he'd have a point.

I know, but I like fair comparisons and to be honest running physics tests doesn't bother me.

Besides I've done the GT6 one already (with a different car one I can match more closely in pCars), just need to do the test in pCars later and then get both videos up.

 

[Terronium-12]

Im suspicious with regard to the way this thread gets bumped every so often. Not pointing fingers, just saying Im suspicious of some venturing from the Pcars sub forum into here.

And I'm suspicious of you never having addressed the following:

You sure implied it by saying a "true sim" needs to maintain as close to 60fps as possible, and asking how pCars can be called a sim when it dips below 30 at times, but now that GT6 falls foul of this you're moving the goal posts?

How very convenient.

Gran Turismo 4 must be a superior simulator to 5 and 6 as well, considering everything I can find on it points to it running at a consistent 60 frames as well. So where are you going to move the goal posts now?

 

[FastFurious77]

I'm sure if pcars didn't have to render 45-47 cars on track at once with the weather and lighting effects it would be maintaining 60FPS. The PS4 for sure keeps higher stable frame rates than an xbox one according to digital foundry. Whether this is down to SMS poor optimization or they just set the goals too high for the PS4 to process too much at once. I'm sure with as many cars as GT6 on track or few more it would sustain 60FPS maybe but who knows. Maybe its poor optimization and implementation of software and maybe the PS4 could handle that much at once. I don't have a clue to be honest I'm just guessing here.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Im suspicious with regard to the way this thread gets bumped every so often. Not pointing fingers, just saying Im suspicious of some venturing from the Pcars sub forum into here.

Isn't bumping something that happens when a thread is idle for a day or longer and someone makes a trivial post to boost the thread up higher on the first page of threads? How much bumping can there be with a thread that averages more than one post an hour for nine days?

 

[eran0004]

OK so here is a non FFB standing start in GT6, using a Lotus 97T, its not my video but reacts exactly the same as numerous ones I've put together before.



And here is a Lotus 98T in pCars



The difference in how the engine models the torque transfer to each tyre is quite clear. Its a simple test you can easily do, its best done with a controller as you can remove FFB from turning the wheel that way (after all if its modeled correctly it should occur with or without FFB). Red line the engine and either release the brake or dump the clutch, leave the steering alone totally. If it takes off straight and true with that much torque then its not being modeled, as you should get a torque bias to one side or the other resulting in rear wheel torque steer and a date with the armco.

The car torque steers in GT6 as well. I just did the test you described and the result was very similar to what you see in the Project Cars video. First I tested with RH tyres on Red Bull Ring, because I thought that perhaps the track and the tyres had anything to do with it. Then I went on to replicate that video, with CH tyres and at Route X but even during those conditions the car torque steered into the barriers.

What I found, however, was that when I let the engine bounce off the rev limiter there was very little torque steer, but when I kept it below the rev limiter the car actually spun around a full circle (with CH tyres) before hitting the barrier.

 

[super_gt]

The starting gear in the GT6 example is 2nd vs. 1st on pCars. Also what are the driving settings in the examples? The only information I have is comfort hard tires. More info is needed to make a comparison.

The GT6 Lotus 97T video is mine.
Stock settings,no oil change.
All AIDS are OFF,ABS is also OFF(you can see that in the end of the video,fron tires lock)
I did the standing start many times including standing start from first gear,second gear,third gear and the end result is always the same as in the video.

 

[Scaff]

The car torque steers in GT6 as well. I just did the test you described and the result was very similar to what you see in the Project Cars video. First I tested with RH tyres on Red Bull Ring, because I thought that perhaps the track and the tyres had anything to do with it. Then I went on to replicate that video, with CH tyres and at Route X but even during those conditions the car torque steered into the barriers.

What I found, however, was that when I let the engine bounce off the rev limiter there was very little torque steer, but when I kept it below the rev limiter the car actually spun around a full circle (with CH tyres) before hitting the barrier.

Are you using a wheel or a pad?

I also find it odd that any difference would exist between the limiter being used or not, it shouldn't make a bit of difference, could you post a video up of it.

 

[David Talle]

The GT6 Lotus 97T video is mine.
All AIDS are OFF,ABS is also OFF(you can see that in the end of the video,fron tires lock)
I did the standing start many times including standing start from first gear,second gear,third gear and the end result is always the same as in the video.

What about differential ?

 

[super_gt]

What about differential ?

The car is stock,no oil change.

 

[super_gt]

The car torque steers in GT6 as well. I just did the test you described and the result was very similar to what you see in the Project Cars video. First I tested with RH tyres on Red Bull Ring, because I thought that perhaps the track and the tyres had anything to do with it. Then I went on to replicate that video, with CH tyres and at Route X but even during those conditions the car torque steered into the barriers.

What I found, however, was that when I let the engine bounce off the rev limiter there was very little torque steer, but when I kept it below the rev limiter the car actually spun around a full circle (with CH tyres) before hitting the barrier.

I just did the test again,no change.
The result is the same as in the video.
The test is made with Dualshock 3

Sorry double post.

 

[eran0004]

Are you using a wheel or a pad?

I also find it odd that any difference would exist between the limiter being used or not, it shouldn't make a bit of difference, could you post a video up of it.

I'm using a wheel (DFGT). Here's a video at Brands Hatch with RH tyres, no driving aids and default track settings.

 

[Lewis_Hamilton_]

I'm using a wheel (DFGT). Here's a video at Brands Hatch with RH tyres, no driving aids and default track settings.

Of course the car is going to spin on an uneven steep slope, that would happen with or without torque steer, you need to do the experiment on a flat surface.

 

[eran0004]

Of course the car is going to spin on a steep slope, that would happen with or without torque steer, you need to do the experiment on a flat surface.

Here's Silverstone Stowe.



Here's a little less powerful car, the Toyota 2000GT:

 

[Scaff]

That's not torque steer, it's FFB from you wheel, turn off the force feedback or use a pad.

If it's modelled in the physics engine it's going to happen without FFB, but it doesn't.

 

[eran0004]

That's not torque steer, it's FFB from you wheel, turn off the force feedback or use a pad.

If it's modelled in the physics engine it's going to happen without FFB, but it doesn't.

It's not. I plugged out the power cord, there's no FFB.

Edit: New video. This time I used the DS3. Same result.



Ford GT40, DS3:



Do you want more evidence?

 

[MXH]

@eran0004 I'm not familiar with how uneven Stowe's surface is, but are you getting the same results at SSRX as well?

 

[Scaff]

It's not. I plugged out the power cord, there's no FFB.

Edit: New video. This time I used the DS3. Same result.

Do you want more evidence?

Actually I would like to know whats going on as I ran a test earlier today (different car) and didn't get results even close to that (DS3), my copy of GT6 is fully updated and I still need to transfer the video from my phone and run the comparison in pCars.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Actually I would like to know whats going on as I ran a test earlier today (different car) and didn't get results even close to that (DS3), my copy of GT6 is fully updated and I still need to transfer the video from my phone and run the comparison in pCars.

Do you have grip reduction set to real?

 

[Scaff]

Do you have grip reduction set to real?

Yep - always do.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Yep - always do.

Was it done on any real world track or just Route X?

 

[Lewis_Hamilton_]

@eran0004 Those are still uneven surfaces. I've just tried a 100% stock 97T with no aids on the start finish straight of High Speed Ring, there is zero torque steer. Try it for yourself, or would you like me to post a video?

Update: Just tried at Indy Speedway, Silverstone (full circuit) and Grand Valley, same result for them all: Zero torque steer.

Can post videos if you want, I saved the replay on all of them. Tried launches in 1st, 2nd and 3rd gear, it made no difference, car launched perfectly straight every time.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

@eran0004 Those are still uneven surfaces. I've just tried a 100% stock 97T with no aids on the start finish straight of High Speed Ring, there is zero torque steer. Try it for yourself, or would you like me to post a video?

Update: Just tried at Indy Speedway, same result: Zero torque steer.

Just tried on Indianapolis Motor Speedway and I went into the barrier. Anyway going back to playing pCARS. Need to find out which times are cutting or not to see who is fastest without cutting the track.

 

[eran0004]

@eran0004 I'm not familiar with how uneven Stowe's surface is, but are you getting the same results at SSRX as well?

Stowe is about as flat as a racetrack can be made. How flat are the tracks in Project Cars?

@eran0004 Those are still uneven surfaces. I've just tried a 100% stock 97T with no aids on the start finish straight of High Speed Ring, there is zero torque steer. Try it for yourself, or would you like me to post a video?

Update: Just tried at Indy Speedway, same result: Zero torque steer.

Try this: RH tyres, 3rd gear, don't let the engine bounce off the rev limiter. Here's what I get at Indy Speedway:

 

[ImaRobot]

@eran0004 That last video seems weird, and more like a steering error. It should not continue on a path like that, but more so spin completely out. Can you produce these same results when you remove your steering wheel completely, and try it on a DS3?

Also, isn't SSRX the flattest track?

 

[eran0004]

@eran0004 That last video seems weird, and more like a steering error. It should not continue on a path like that, but more so spin completely out. Can you produce these same results when you remove your steering wheel completely, and try it on a DS3?

Also, isn't SSRX the flattest track?

That is with a DS3. No steering error, it's simply torque steer.

 

[ImaRobot]

That is with a DS3. No steering error, it's simply torque steer.

It seems more like some sort of steering pull, rather then actual torque steer. Where you able to achieve these same results on SSRX with the same exact cars?

 

[Lewis_Hamilton_]

Try this: RH tyres, 3rd gear, don't let the engine bounce off the rev limiter. Here's what I get at Indy Speedway

Not sure how not bouncing off the rev limiter is supposed to change anything, but I tried at both Indy and HSR, 3rd gear, not bouncing off the limiter:

Indy - Wondered in one direction by a miniscule amount, likely because of some very small bump in the circuit.
HSR - Perfectly straight launch every time.

I can compile a video of all of my tests if you so wish.

It seems more like some sort of steering pull, rather then actual torque steer.

This, any pull is due to a slant or bump in the surface, pick a totally flat surface like HSR, SSRX or GVS, the car will not wonder by an inch.

 

[eran0004]

Not sure how not bouncing off the rev limiter is supposed to change anything, but I tried at both Indy and HSR, 3rd gear, not bouncing off the limiter:

Indy - Wondered in one direction by a miniscule amount, likely because of some very small bump in the circuit.
HSR - Perfectly straight launch every time.

I can compile a video of all of my tests if you so wish.

When you bounce off the rev limiter the engine is not producing any torque.

Yes, do compile a video.